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What is needed for other the airports to gain from Dublin mayhem

  • 30-05-2022 10:49pm
    Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭

    While it may be more of a medium or longer term gain, surely the events of last few month would help make people considered using cork shannon kerry and knock.

    Shannon is only operating to a fraction of its ability.1st off it has the advantage of pre clearance for the US which brings me to point 2.

    Secondly Shannon needs a significant improvement in bus connection to and from the airport to limerick and galway city esp for those getting early morning flights.. Currently its easier to get to dublin airport from the regional cities using aircoach etc that getting to your regional airport

    Both cork and shannon need better connections to European hubs such as Lisbon, paris frankfurt. (Yes i know cork has a Paris route). To be succesful these would need to be a min twice weekly if not 3 times a week to be successful.

    They really need to get the fingers out in shannon in terms of route development and go after other airlines. The runway lenght is of huge advantage to shannon. As well a traditionally serving trans Atlantic route there is potential to start a traditon east. You may think im mad but just think if the amount of Irish in dubai and Australia. Dubai is a major international hub. Add to that the growing Indian population in the midwest, and honeymooner transiting via dubai to popular honeymoon destinations there is huge potential there

    Cork has a significant amount of peole from all over Europe living and working in cork yet not flights to Madrid, Rome etc..

    Better services from our regional airports to popular holiday destination such as Faro, Lanzarote etc and competively priced too would be a start.

    Possibilty for Bord Failte etc to maybe encourage tour groups to use shannon airport more. Let tours have the option of starting their holiday flying into dublin and fly from shannon after doing the atlantic way or visa versa

    Any other ideas on how the regionals can benefit and grow. Its crazy that over 90% of air traffic is via dublin airport. If we need to be serious about regional development it should start with the airports



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Car99

    Ireland has 5 million people most of which are within 2.5 hours of dublin airport by road. Better public transport to Dublin Airport is the only thing that needs investment. Metro to the airport is a necessity.

    Cork and Shannon are lovely airports to fly from but I can't see them attracting any business bar holiday traffic.

  • Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]

    you need to fix the title, it doesn't really made sense

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭lisasimpson

    Do you mind me asking what part of the country you are in?

    Shannon definately has a larger catchment area than 10 years ago. The M7 motorway and then the Limerick to Galway motorway.

    They could serve a lot more than just holidays. Numerous 3rd levels institutes which attracts Eurmus students in both directions programme now extended to 2nd level , confereces in our unversities not to mention all the global employers all along the western seaboard. Business travel is returning

  • Registered Users Posts: 33,274 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock

    Shannon would make sense for US flights, I would have thought. Cork and Knock for European - especially if the can encourage tourists.

    The problem is none of them have really great connections unless you have or are willing to rent a car.. Of course, the same could be said for Dublin thuogh...

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,227 ✭✭✭sprucemoose

    i dont know how it works with shannon, but DAA have mismanaged cork airport so much at this stage that its getting more and more obvious that the ideal situation in their eyes would be closing cork and moving all traffic to dublin. i think the landing fees for cork were much higher too compared to dublin but that may be hearsay, either way fares to equivalent destinations tended to be much higher when i lived there, although maybe it has changed in the last year or so.

    are you living in dublin by any chance?

    anyway, ridiculous statement. cork city to dublin airport is only 2 and a half hours if you leave cork at around 2am, youre looking at close to 3 hours normally and a bit more than that if you hit traffic leaving cork city. even at that, 2 and a half hours is a significant journey, maybe not for a family etc that might only fly once or twice a year for holiday reasons, but thats a significant time investment for someone flying once/twice a month for business purpose

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  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭babyducklings1

    Well in the very short term if airlines have empty seats outside of Dublin and better staffing levels ( if) would it not make sense for passengers booked to fly from Dublin to be able to fly from the airports outside of Dublin. It might alleviate some of the pressure on Dublin airport and stop passengers missing their flights.

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,177 ✭✭✭✭Strumms

    Erasmus students are what percentage of any airlines passenger demographic? Tiny I’d imagine…

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight

    via it may be related to population density x time

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭lisasimpson

    They maybe tiny but then again think of their family and friends visiting or potential of them making return visits years later. Also more secondary school trips are going to Europe and again most funnelled through dublin .3rd levels can bring a lot of business for airports via students, conferencing, sports events etc I was trying to make a case that regionals have the capcity for more business than just families going on annual holidays

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭kevinandrew

    I agree about public transport needing serious improvement for our regional airports but that alone isn't going to change much and commercially, there's very little that would.

    Shannon's runway length for example is of zero advantage these days from a network point of view. Most modern aircraft can depart comfortably off shorter runways and while having that kind of infrastructure is nice, it rarely sways the decision makers when new routes are considered.

    It all comes down to demand, yield and profit. Dublin has the demand, it can command the required yield and makes the biggest profit. No airline is going to risk diluting that. The regional airports certainly have some untapped markets to work on but outside of those few opportunities, there's little scope for much more, certainly not enough to change the trajectory of Dublin's growth.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭lisasimpson

    So around the time periods of 2006 to 2008 shannon had about 3.6 passengers and cork 3.2 (old terminal) a year no reasons why both airports cannot serve same numbers comfortablly again.

    As for the population arguemenr of Car99. Census figures in 2016 for Cork city and county were around 330k and will see a good increase in this years figure. Then take surrounding counties into account you are looking at a catchement area hitting 600k

    Then look at shannon. In 2016 census, galway city and county 179.5k, Clare 188k, limerick 195k, tipperary 159.5k. Shannon catchment area with the M7 could easily target as far as Portloais now as it would take the same lenght of time to get to terminal once you get around the M50. All these populations will only be higher omce we get this years census

    The traffic congestion on the M50 too is another reason why the powers that be should be pushing regionals more. For start developing proper public transport routes to our regionals. If anything its more sustainable. Talks should be facilitated btw cork, shannon, knock, bus eireann, Kavanagh busses and other providers to examine this ensuring early morning flights are catered for

    Post edited by lisasimpson on

  • Registered Users Posts: 41 theskeptic

    If you include Northern Ireland, the population is 7 million. Many people from NI use Dublin Airport with the M1 providing easy access.

  • Registered Users Posts: 41 theskeptic

    It would make sense for Cork Airport to be independent of the DAA. This would give it more autonomy to compete. If I remember correctly there were financial issues which meant that Cork Airport couldn't sustain itself financially without the DAA. Perhaps this liability could be transferred out of DAA?

    In the medium-term, if (hopefully when) the M20 is built between Cork and Limerick, the overlapping catchment area of Cork and Shannon airports will increase. This will raise the issue of whether both airports thrive or cannibalise each other. For example, do Belfast International and Belfast City airports hamper or enhance air capacity in Northern Ireland? Or indeed if the PD's had got their way many years ago and a second Dublin airport was created at Baldonnel would we now have better or worse connectivity in Dublin?

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭ratracer

    Isn’t that what Shannon thought when they left the DAA though?

    I don’t know how airport management works, but the overseeing of all of our airports, from a customer point of view is dreadful.

    Covid can be blamed for a lot, but the post-pandemic preparedness is seriously lacking.

    Shannon Airport has not flourished since it’s independence from the DAA, imo it’s gone backwards. I doubt anyone living west of the riverShannon would ever go near Dublin airport if there were better routes/ connectivity from here.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭lisasimpson

    While covid is to blame somewhat there was a serious decline in passenger numbers from both cork and shannon. In fairness to cork to turn fortunes around they are not relying on just ryanair and airlingus to put on flights they have attracted KLM, Air France, Swizz air. Iberia express to Madrid hasnt returned post covid. Hopefully they will and for a longer summer season as i was on that flight and it was always full. Early this year they put out a social media survey on what new routes would passengers like to see.

    Hopefully shannon can get the finger out there has been some comings and goings on the boards of the shannon group which probably isnt helping its cause. Like cork just dont depend on ryanair and air lingus.They have implemented some positive improvements in shannon like the new scanning equipment and the sensory areas for those with needs. In both airports any summer routes put in often dont run during the full april to oct "summer" period. Often youd find services running maybe mid may to early sept. Could try to encourage those existing routes to extemd service by a few weeks.

    Definatelt think the likes of Faro, Lanzarote, Malaga could be better served from regions

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,438 ✭✭✭✭cson

    Malaga and Lanzorote have year round service from SNN with FR whilst Faro is seasonal.

    At the end of the day, most locals wont pay the premium to fly from regional airports and end up in DUB instead where the economics work better for the airlines (and indeed the pax).

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭ratracer

    If I take diesel, tolls and airport parking charges into account, before even contemplating the crazy queues, I’d happily pay €150 or so extra for a flight from Shannon if it were available to my destination.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭lisasimpson

    Looking at dublin airport weekly schedule for this summer.. its has 731 flights per week to uk destinations out of that 72 flights per week to manchester alone, 56 to edinburgh.

    To other European destinations, 100 flights per week to amsterdam, Faro 50, lisbon 40, 64 to the 2 paris airports combined.

    Surely there is demand west of the shannon for these. Full list here

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Car99

    I live 50 mins from shannon , 1 hour from Cork airport and 2 hrs from Dublin Airport . I work in Shannon airport . When the DAA wouldn't play ball with Ryanair and as a result Ryanair closed their SNN base the airport went from very active to ticking over. It killed the airport. The DAA has no interest in the region or the airport . Shannon is my preferred airport . The improvement in the motorway network has also strangely enough negatively affected SNN as DUB is now easier to get to. I flew to London once a week for years and o had 16 flights a day from Dub to LGW versus 1 a day SNN - LGW to choose from . 99% of the time I went to DUB. How could Shannon ever compete with that about of flexibility on any route. For family holidays SNN or Cork are always our preferred options.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭lisasimpson

    Look we are all well aware of the past history of shannon and the DAA. We need to stop living in the past and look forward. The airport is free from the DAA for a number of years now. Nows the time to start talking postively about our regionals. Otherwise they will end up like thurles town for example a town that seems to be still suffering from PTSD from the sugar factory closure

    For someone who says they work in shannon you have a v negative attitude towards the place. If you look at my previous post here i posted the number of weekly flights from dublin this summer. Take Manchester for example 72 flights dublin, 7 from cork, 5 from shannon. Surely to god72 vs 12 is v imbalanced

    Post edited by lisasimpson on

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  • Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭pdpmur

    If you read the Wikipedia page about Cork Airport, particularly the bit about the period between 2000 and 2010, and pair it with the knowlegde of the concurrent reign at the time by Bertie Ahern as both Taoiseach and TD for a constituency that includes a lot of people dependent on Dublin Airport DAA, then you will begin to understand why Cork Airport was previously thriving but now is permanantly hobbled by a huge debt with consequent high landing fees and other large charges that discourages airlines.

    Its not for nothing that Haughey described Ahern as "the most devious and the most cunning of them all"

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve

    Political interference has been a damning factor for years in relation to both Cork and Shannon, it's taking a long time for the stigma of "the Shannon stop over" to be forgotten, the requirement for all flights across the Atlantic to Ireland to land in Shannon both inbound and outbound caused huge problems for the operators and caused significant resentment for the passengers that were subjected to it, and memories are long in some areas.

    Another factor is that over the last 20 years, a number of operators have attempted to develop routes from both Cork and Shannon, but those routes have not prospered. As to the exact reasons, there are many. Dublin can spread the (significant ) operating cost of the airport over a much higher number of passengers and airlines, and if I am brutal about it, Shannon has way more infrastructure in terms of terminal space etc than the size of the operation now justifies, and that infrastructure has a cost that has to be borne by a much smaller number of airlines and passengers, and for different reasons, the same is true for Cork.

    If Shannon didn't exist, there is no way that an airport of the size of Shannon would be appropriate for the requirements of the area, the size of Shannon is a historic anomaly that is down to the very different operating requirments of the early generations of aircraft that operated across the Atlantic.

    That said, Shannon could develop into a major freight hub, with the right promotion, but it would face significant competition from established hubs, and a lot is going to depend on what happens with freight aircraft, and more significantly, what fuel they end up operating on, Jet A1 is not going to be in use to the same degree going forward, and some freight may end up being shipped by air and water, or air and (maybe) rail from the Shannon area, but some of that concept will depend on what funding and infrastructure is developed to meet the carbon emission reduction targets, which brings me full circle to politicians, I'd have zero confidence in Eamon Ryan being capable of even thinking positively about any form of aviation, let alone producing a policy to actually encourage developments in that arena.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,177 ✭✭✭✭Strumms

    A significant portion of airfreight is express, next day or two day delivery… from its collection pending customs clearance… to delivery, it’s time definite….whereby is service fails… ie. Delivery by 2pm and delivery is signed for at 2.01 pm… a refund is required .

    sending it into SNN will add major cost… the majority to freight that arrives into the country is for the east coast…so it makes sense then to have the aircraft land there and sort facilities there. Be a significant cost in running a fleet of 40 foot trucks from SNN to the capital and east coast…

    also Irish customs, Irish medicines board, revenue visit each courier daily to check and inspect shipments.. and do various paperwork….

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve

    I was actually thinking more along the lines of transatlantic hub for onward into Europe, though having said that, the volumes to each country are becoming so large that most areas justify a direct flight rather than the older hub and spoke concept, but it still strikes me as slightly absurd that there are multiple flights from Ireland (SNN and DUB particularly) that hub into Belgium or the UK to then trans ship into transatlantic flights that effectively overfly Ireland, and the same in the opposite direction.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁

  • Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭x567

    It obviously takes time to launch, develop and establish a route so that it prospers - it’s rare to have an instant success; and we should remember that there had been some very gradual progress with this at Shannon in the lead up to the pandemic. Lufthansa had increased their FRA route from weekly to twice weekly, there was a seasonal weekly service from Zurich and some from France, and in addition to their Faro and ACE summer services EI were going to give Paris and Barcelona a go to utilise their early morning spare A320 capacity. There were also EI ATR services to BHX, EDI and MAN at usable timings and frequencies that were pretty popular. The TA offerings were also doing well in the summer season and had expanded to include YYZ alongside the north-eastern USA routes. I think a lot of this will come back and if/when they do those like me living in the SNN catchment area need to try to use them in preference to Dublin. That’s the main thing that SNN needs in order to benefit from the Dublinshambles. It would be great to see a SNN-based EI 320 back to improve LHR timings and to allow capacity to try other early-morning routes; and getting Emerald to serve the airport should be a priority for SNN’s management in my view

    The airport has great infrastructure and is well connected by road - it would be great to see it get better used.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭lisasimpson

    Agree routes need be given time to bed in, word of mouth from new users etc. Good example was the 2019 i think it had a summer flight to Ibiza but wasnt down to return 2020. I know some people comment boozy travellers but they are still passengers and good way to get airport into the mindset of younger travellers.I know a few from work who used it the year it was there and said the flights were busybusy.

    Think paris would have good potential from shannon in terms of European routes. Between hub connections, family trips to Euro Disney , general weekend breaks, school/university trips and sporting events.

    As for the summer Toronto flight that was planned for 2020. Wonder what initial bookings were like would it be encouraged to try for summer 2023

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,872 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762

    Part of what needs to happen is Aer Lingus / Emerald to get the finger out. When Aer Arann went, you lost all ATR based flights from Cork and Shannon. Cork was at least 2-3x daily for Manchester for instance. Ryanair took SOME of it over, but not all, and its not the same as you can't get connecting flights.

    KLM are making a killing through Cork - Amsterdam I can only imagine - they seem to fill 3x daily flights on an Embraer.

    But Aer Lingus / Emeralds return to Cork and Shannon post pandemic was pathetic at best, whereas Ryanair went straight back to pre-pandemic flights and took over some Aer Lingus routes. Aer Lingus just don't seem interested in doing anything in Cork or Shannon - or nudging Emerald into either of them. Its nuts.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,954 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman

    All the current issues with Dublin will be solved soon and everything will get back to normal of having everything from Dublin. Personally I'm 20 minutes from Shannon and my holidays are decided by checking the flights from Shannon and going from there.

    Shannon to the Red Cow can be done in ~2 hours, considering the easier parking, faster check in, etc anyone west of the M50 and south should give serious consideration to Shannon BUT there isn't the same flight options, for example Shannon Faro is 3 times a week from Shannon, its 5 times daily from Dublin. What incentive is there for airlines to change to Shannon or Cork or Knock? Ultimately their costs will be the same but they'll have a busier airport. Getting too and from Shannon isn't easy without a car, friends of mine in Galway just get on a return bus to Dublin, such options even from Ennis isn't easy.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭lisasimpson

    Clareman thats it in a nutshell. Getting to shannonn airport if you dont drive is a big problem. That is one thing shannon authority needs to make a break through on. A regular bus service from galway via ennis to the airport and business park but it needs to serve early morning departures. As previously stated i know people who have gotten the greenbus from limerick to fly to london Heathrow

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,954 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman

    Personally I think a deal should be done with the green bus to have it stop at the airport, it already stops in Bunratty