Electric bicycles and scooters

newmember2

This has probably been done already but I've no way of knowing...Is it a matter of top speed or what, but why do electric powered bicycles and scooters not need insurance and a licence? I can't see the electric bikes being much different to mopeds tbh.

coylemj

They do (need a licence and insurance) but the law is simply not being enforced while the Dept of Transport dithers tries to come up with a policy on how to deal with them.

They are mechanically propelled vehicles according to the 1961 Road Traffic Act so insurance and a driving licence are legally required to drive them in public places.....

“mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/3/enacted/en/html#sec3

kdevitt

Seems hit and miss, but my wife has a client who just had his driving licence suspended for 12 months after being caught on an electric scooter coming out of the park. He had been warned inside the park by a guard about using it - so they threw the book at him when they saw he had hopped straight back on.

GlennaMaddy

Powered scooters and bikes require tax and insurance, power assisted bikes do not. Power assisted means the thing won't move without you continuously contributing to the power output by pedalling and when you are not contributing the power from motors cuts out (e.g. freewheeling down a hill). Not sure about power asssisted scooters.

CiniO

So I think pretty much all of commercially sold e-bikes are only power-assisted, so don't classify as mechanically propelled vehicles.

Only e-bikes which can propel on their own I've ever seen were aftermarket conversions, usually using Chinese motors and equipment.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119134840#Comment_119134840

I thought the issue was those devices which are self propelled have no road legal classification therefore are not road legal and there is no means to tax or insure them.

Until they sort that out, there is no way to use them on the road (or public spaces) legally. You can only use them on private land.

As others have mentioned there are legal eBikes. Just because you see an eBike doesn't mean it's not legal.

magicbastarder

in order to be considered legally a bicycle, these are the three main criteria:

• must not be able to move purely under its own power (i.e. the rider must be pedalling for the motor to engage)
• cannot provide assistance once the speed is greater than 25km/h (i.e. if you see someone doing 28km/h, say, the motor should not be assisting at that point)
• the motor cannot be rated higher than 250W

anything breaching the above would be legally considered to be a moped. this may change when the (repeatedly delayed) legislation on scooters etc. is introduced.

Miscreant

I highly doubt that any of those criteria will change once the legislation passes..... in 10 years time. The Government have dragged their heels on this and won't put the extra brain power into coming up with new criteria. I think most countries in the EU have the same rules in place anyway.

Flinty997

Talk about dragging their heels.

magicbastarder

it had been promised that the whole road traffic acts melange of amendments and bolt-ons would be tidied up with a complete revamp of the laws, a 'one ring to rule them all' approach. i'd like to think this is the reason for the delay, but i haven't a clue what the actual reason is.

brokenangel

I think they had a huge thread on the electric cars forum

like everything else in Ireland this is stuck in the "what happens if someone hits someone"

Our insurance is crazy so what happens when a 12 year old smashs into someone.

Go to Europe and these are dotted all around the cities, they have a company in Ireland who is installing them all around Europe, London as well etc and they have met Leo etc but no movement from what I can see

Our biggest issue, Dublin is designed for cars, so anything like eBikes/Scooters have to be pushed onto the road with cars etc. Thats too dangerous, we should be shutting down the city to cars and then it will be easier to implement these technologies.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142794#Comment_119142794

The RSA website says that unless you need to continuously pedal, it's considered an MPV. Which concurs with the first bullet in your post, there is no mention of the other conditions you quoted.

Regardless of the type of bike, its speed or whether it requires a push start, the rules are as follows:

• If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e., it can continue without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically propelled vehicle’ (MPV).
• Under road traffic law if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles i.e., it must be roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured.
• The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet.

https://www.rsa.ie/road-safety/road-users/special-purpose-vehicles/powered-personal-transportation

Flinty997

It falls under EU regulations AFAIK.

In the European Union a pedelec does not need registration, insurance, or license plate, if it adheres to these rules:

Motor power up to 250 W (continuous)

Motor is active only when the pedals are turned

Highest speed of 25 km/h (15.5 mph) with motor assistance

If any of these rules is not followed, the vehicle is classified as either e-bike or S-Pedelec which require a license plate and insurance, or as a motorbike which also requires a driving license.

As usual we've not bothered our behind to sort it out specifically here.

coylemj

At the risk of sounding like a Brexiter, I wasn't aware that we had handed over the regulation of road traffic to bureaucrats in Brussels.

I think the situation in reality is that the EU effectively tells us to introduce regulations in certain situations e.g. tachographs in HGVs and that gets onto the statute book here, either by an Act of the Oireachtas or a Statutory Instrument (SI). But I don't think the EU can tell us what is and is not a mechanically propelled vehicle - that is a matter for domestic legislation.

magicbastarder

regulation and type regulation of vehicles is handled at a european level in many ways. and not just vehicles, this is nothing new.

Effects

Had a go on a mates one. Not legal by the 25 kmh rule. Stopped peddling lightly when it reached 38 kmh. Really dangerous if you aren't careful.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145342#Comment_119145342

Same as a motorcycle really. More torque which can catch people out.

Effects

I think it tops out somewhere around 40, but I didn't want to find out. But yeah, way more torque than a small engined bike.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145310#Comment_119145310

So you are blaming the EU for something being illegal here while it's legal it most of the other EU countries!

rab!dmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145230#Comment_119145230

Irish laws were updated to incorporate this categorisation last October. Pedelecs as you describe are legal here, though more powerful e-bikes remain 'mechanically propelled vehicles' and subject to all the same laws as typical motorcycles. The same legislation also legalised e-scooters within a similar performance envelope.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147411#Comment_119147411

Link?

magicbastarder

There was no law passed. The expected law to deal with scooters has been repeatedly delayed.

magicbastarder

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-05-31/154/?highlight%5B0%5D=scooters

ratracer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145342#Comment_119145342

Was that legally bought in a shop here? Or perhaps modified after?

I know there are plenty of modified pedelecs on the roads, but they can’t be bought in the shop. Not sure how you’d stop anyone modifying them after though.

Flinty997

They are not illegal to buy. Just illegal to use on a public road or public space like a park.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119146332#Comment_119146332

I'm not 'blaming' the EU for anything, you have it completely upside down. I'm saying that the regulation of road traffic is a matter for domestic legislation.

magicbastarder

but type approval makes sense at a european level. we don't - and shouldn't - have specific domestic regulations governing how cars are built, or what standards they're built to.

we have our own road traffic laws, because it makes sense to. we copy/follow europe on the big stuff that would not scale to here. until a few years ago, the law on PPVs was sensible enough because scooters didn't exist, and there wasn't really such a thing as an 'illegal' e-bike available.

CPTM

Hope the department sorts this out soon because the so called electric bicycles are getting bigger and bigger. There are a few flying down the local footpath during school rush time with tires that could fit on a Harley Davidson. I will say they're great things once they're used in a safe way though. Anything to reduce traffic and fumes.

magicbastarder

yeah, fiido recently came out with a fat tyre bike.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148378#Comment_119148378

Yes, in theory it makes sense to harmonise the regulations across the EU. The problem is that practice (what the locals get up to) and enforcement (whether the local cops care) are not the same across the EU, especially when it comes to something like electric bikes and scooters. It's down to each country to regulate what mechanised vehicles you can and can not ride on public roads.

Each country sets their own limit for the amount of alcohol that's permissible when you drive an MPV, driver testing and licensing is also controlled by local regulations, ditto the rules of the road. Telling us that something is legal in xx countries counts for naught when it comes to road traffic regulations.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119135022#Comment_119135022

That Garda mjust be one of the few in the country actually enforcing hte law. uk stats on collisions, serious injuries and death have escalated in the past 12 months.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148504#Comment_119148504

I reckon there's very little enforcement outside these anecdotal stories. When they did stats on the fixed penalty fines for cyclists it was the equivalent one or two fines per day nationally. I expect it less now. I think if you are discrete and sensible you'd be unlucky to be stopped.

Its disgrace a legal framework is still not in place.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148504#Comment_119148504

I suspect someone belonging to that Garda was knocked down or violently pushed out of the way by an e-bike riding on the footpath. I've also heard of e-bikes being confiscated but the incidences are pretty scarce.

magicbastarder

i am curious about what the chap was charged with in that anecdote.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148480#Comment_119148480

well, it does look like we're going to get our own specific law at some point anyway.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149004#Comment_119149004

https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/e-scooter-man-convicted-of-driving-without-licence-or-insurance-slams-unfair-prosecution-41268505.html

Another case here, but I've heard some on the news previously too

Flinty997

"500-watt electric scooter" bet that shifts.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149043#Comment_119149043

just to elaborate - i wonder what he was charged with, which resulted in his licence being confiscated. it's amazing what you can get away with in a car without having your licence confiscated, so the claim that it was achieved based on riding a scooter in a park got my spidey senses tingling.

harmless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149554#Comment_119149554

Convicted of driving without a license or insurance

500 watts is taking the piss but I'm not sure why the Garda thinks 250 watts and under is not is deemed to be a mechanically propelled vehicle. Maybe it's some kind of unoffical Garda policy.

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149554#Comment_119149554

He wasn't done for driving in the Park, he was initially stopped in the park and the guard asked him if he was aware of the legalities of using them - he said he was and hopped off. The same guard was then outside the park in Castleknock, and the lad came flying out on the scooter - which is when he was stopped again.

Not sure what he was charged with to be honest, imagine it was driving without insurance. He's in with my wives firm because he's saying he never received the summons - and was banned in his absence. My wife was only asking me about it to see if I'd heard of similar.

magicbastarder

reason i asked is that driving without insurance typically carries a 5 penalty point fine, and from what i can see, only a judge can issue an outright driving ban based on it.

If you drive while uninsured, you could be fined up to €5000 and get 5 penalty points. You could also go to prison for up to 6 months. The judge may decide to disqualify you from driving instead of giving you penalty points

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150087#Comment_119150087

Yes - a judge issued the ban - as I mentioned above, the guy missed the summons.

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147631#Comment_119147631

Bought in a store, not modified. Sticker used to cover some of the details on the bike afterwards.

The guy who bought it won't be going mad on it, as he's old enough to have sense. But it's easy to see that some people would drive them hard and dangerous.

Flinty997

Wouldn't need to cover the details. Its not illegal to sell or own. Just use on public road/land

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150282#Comment_119150282

a ludicrous punishment, really.

Effects

Maybe if you wanted to use it on a public road, even though it exceeds the legal parameters, you would. 🤣

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150725#Comment_119150725

I’d imagine not actually turning up to court didn’t help him.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150902#Comment_119150902

I think not pedaling and/or doing high speeds will be more obvious give away than the label.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119151249#Comment_119151249

for sure, but it's applying a punishment for being antisocial, which is a punishment usually meted out for dangerously bad driving. it takes a lot in ireland to lose your licence, so it's just very incongruous.

and i'm saying that as someone who believes it should be much easier to lose your licence.

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119151402#Comment_119151402

It has to be pedalled, but the top speed is just higher than 25 kmph. He doesn't go higher that 30 on it himself, in mode 2. I just put it in the third mode to see what it was like.

newmember2

Saw a guy today flying along not pedalling on an e-bike and he was doing a fair speed.

Also, if you need licence and insurance should you also need some sort of identifier on the vehicle?