Planning Permission - 7 Year Rule

WacoKid

Hi

I am purchasing a property that had an extension carried out some 30 years ago but does not have planning permission.

1st Question: Do I need retention planning, or does the 7 year rule or a similar rule apply?

2nd Question: I am further extending the property by some 30sqm, which is under the 40sqm allowable before planning. Do I need to factor in the 30 year old extension, bringing me over the 40sqm allowance and into the planning permission process, or can I ignore it and just proceed with the 30 sqm new extension without planning permission?

Many thanks!

Del2005

IIRC you can't be asked to demolish an unauthorised development after 7 years but it's still illegal, you won't get a mortgage for the property without planning permission and then you have the issues of what other corners where cut when doing the extension.

What makes you think that it needs planning permission?

DOCARCH

Did the extension built 30 years ago require planning permission?

If it did, retention permission required now for conveyance for mortgage. This should be applied for by the vendors.

As to your proposed 30m.sq. extension, planning permission (probably) required unless the extension built 30 years ago is 10m.sq. (or less).

WacoKid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106870#Comment_119106870

It is an extension over a garage to the side of a semi-detached so it must have needed planning.

With regards to the Bank releasing the mortgage, I have been told a Certificate of Compliance from an architect will suffice. This does just hand over the can to me and kick it down the road though.

Combining the current and new extensions, yes it will be over 40 sqm.

So looks as if I am best doing retention/new planning application in one go...and look to be re-embured from the seller for some or all of it.

Might get the Certificate of Compliance done also in the meantime, at the sellers cost, just to release the mortgage?

DOCARCH

Not sure who is going to issue an opinion on compliance for something that is clearly not compliant/clearly required planning permission!

Really is the sellers issue to deal with.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107353#Comment_119107353

You won't get a cert of compliance in respect of the extension that's there ... at least not until you get retention permission for it.

Effects

I've had a few friends recently sell/buy houses with extensions that don't have permission. The vendor usually has an architect say that it's compliant, even though there isn't full permission.

DOCARCH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107631#Comment_119107631

Fair play to that architect! I would not like to be their professional indemnity insurers!!!

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107631#Comment_119107631

Their get out of jail card is that it is only "an opinion of compliance"

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107698#Comment_119107698

thats not a "get out of jail card" at all.

A judge would laugh at you in court if you tried to claim your professional assessment of something, that clearly required permission, was that it didn't require permission, but its ok, because you're just offering "an opinion"

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107752#Comment_119107752

Why do they not give a cert of compliance but instead an opinion of compliance?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107875#Comment_119107875

obviously because they are not certain... as that's what you have to be to certify. The clue is in the word.

zg3409

Beware if you buy, then go to sell the new owner may have lian problems. Typically the company giving the loan will "risk assess" the loan. If you are looking for 100% loan then risk is high, a 50% loan then risk is low.

So new buyer may have higher risk profile and loan provider may say no.

Planning problems are common and stop many sales. Get good advice from someone who knows their stuff and try not to buy something with planning problems. No guarantee you will get "retention" as this is basically full planning permission where it's already built and may or may not be granted. If it's not granted and you have already bought house then you may have even bigger difficulties to sell. Neighbours may object etc.

In terms of back garden extension check the planning exemption rules. You need to satisfy all rules and ideally apply for planning permission anyway as that helps future sale and just in case you don't 100% satisfy the exemption. You should also investigate what is under the ground under the extension such as sewage main pipes, water mains, piped river etc.

Your solicitor may be hesitant to sign off the sale without conditions.

Ideally get the seller to apply for retention, then it's their risk.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107941#Comment_119107941

See post #7

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107631#Comment_119107631

Thats a load of BS. You dont even know if the extensions you refer to were exempt or not so dont come on here saying things that you dont know to be factual.

No architect/engineer/technician/surveyor will put their PI insurance at risk just so someone they never met before or most likely never will again can sell their house. In fact Im highly insulted by your comments which come across as trolling.

Gumbo

If it needs planning and doesn’t have planning you can’t get an “opinion” or “cert” of compliance.

That cert will state it’s in in compliance with granted planning reference no. xx or it is in compliance with the exempted development regulations in place at the time of construction.

It appears in this case, neither can be obtained. Retention required IMO.

WacoKid

I have been advised that a building surveyor providing an Opinion on Building Compliance will be sufficient for a Bank to release a mortgage.

Today I have companies quoting me for this exact work.

Not saying I am going down this path, just exploring it at the moment to try and understand it all better.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119109415#Comment_119109415

And you have been advised correctly. But the building surveyor will only give you a cert providing all works have been granted and complied with the relevant planning permission.

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108509#Comment_119108509

Don't get your knickers in a twist. I think you took me up wrong, though my post should have been clearer. And it's been covered above in regards to "opinion of compliance".

A buyer isn't going to take an estate agents say that an extension is compliant.

I sold a house that had an extension that was there 30 plus years. I got a surveyor out who applied for an exemption on the extension.

Buyers got a mortgage no problem

WacoKid

Contract came through. Extension has no planning permission. It has a statutory declaration from the current owner stating he has not received any enforcement notices, works were done greater than 7 years ago etc.

How do I best approach this; get him to seek a cert saying it will qualify for retention planning as-is, and then negotiate the planning application costs off the cost of the house?

muffler

You don't need to be lumbered with ifs and buts. Get the vendor to seek retention and only commit to the sale when this has been granted. You're only buying trouble if you proceed any other way.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107875#Comment_119107875

A certificate can only be issued on something that can be certified. To do that for even a simple dwelling would that a very detailed survey and a lot of inspections. Often not possible after that fact, an opinion can be formed much quicker. A professional providing a service is still liable for professional opinions (hence insurance exists), the word opinion prevents spurious claims against the professional. It does not stop negligent claims.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119153512#Comment_119153512

The only thing that will certify that it will qualify for retention is a retention application approval. Best course of action would be to have the vendor arrange retention.

Failing that, what is the banks position? Forget what people have said, and others have advise. What do you bank want? Cert of compliance with planning, or building regs? Not the same, but people often confuse them

Stanford

You would be strongly advised to only buy the property subject to the vendor obtaining planning permission for the extension thus putting the risk where it belongs, on him.

Any future extension would be in addition to the current extension in computing the 40sq.m irrespective of whether or not it required planning. a "statutory declaration from the current owner stating he has not received any enforcement notices, works were done greater than 7 years ago etc." is of no value in rendering the 1st extension as permitted developed.

WacoKid

Reading further he is stating the extension was in 1961, which is before planning permission process was introduced in 1964.

Need to determine what this means as is the extension now viewed as part of the initial house build, or is it still considered an extension. Intial searches seems that if it is pre 1964 then it is not included in the 40sqm calculation.

If you knocked it however to re-build it, you need to factor the new build into the 40sqm.

WacoKid

Also, I have already had a Building Survey Report done for the entire house and this did not flag up any issues. Is this sufficent to give me piece of mind or should I get the extension looked at on its own merit.

The more I think of it, the extension may have been added by the builder when he was intially building the house back pre 1964 at the original purchaser's request.

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding but it seems you are being told what you want to hear - Initially the extension was 'some 30 years old', when that was flagged as an issue it doubled in age to pre 64.

There's quite the difference between the two.

WacoKid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119154224#Comment_119154224

I was guessing its age at the time but the contract has formally stated it was 1961. Solicitor now looking for confirmation it was pre '64.

muffler

Two different stories being told now. I'm out.

WacoKid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119154270#Comment_119154270

Actually just updating info. as I receive it but as you please. Thanks for help to this point.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119154324#Comment_119154324

If it is indeed, Pre 63 then the vendor needs to engage a surveyor, provide the evidence and the surveyor can then issue an opinion of compliance/exemption etc etc

Mellor

Pre ‘64 changes everything. Get a stat Dec, look for evidence etc

WacoKid

Got the stat declaration with the contract. Solicitor has now asked for full evidence of being pre 1961.

Had full survey done as part of mortgage and no specific issues raised.