Homework

kerryjack

With 4 kids and 2 parents working long commute, and all activities like football and play ground after football why do we still have this dreaded homework, like it was all fine and dandy back 50 years ago when the mother was at home but in today's fast moving world do we really need it and have we the time for it.

Jim_Hodge

It's up to you what time and effort it's given but it reinforces the learning from the classroom. But maybe the football gets priority. Why playground after football?

To be honest, it doesn't take that long. If it does then maybe the child needs the extra work.

L1011

We used to be told that homework prepared you for the world of work / adult life.

In the "right to disconnect" era, and longer school days, there's plenty of school kids who have longer working days than their parents now.

Really needs to be a re-evaluation of the school day, the school year and the volume of content rather than loading down on homework.

kerryjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048647#Comment_119048647

Extra work Jim I have a problem with that, the technology is there to work smarter not longer or harder.

Xidu

I don’t even know why they have to spend so much time to learn Irish, Spanish and French?

YellowGiraffe

How many minutes of homework is typical for secondary kids?

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058245481/homework

Skip the playground and help kiddos with homework, if needed. Dandy approach.

JDD

I don't like homework as a concept. I was a smart kid at school, paid attention, did well in exams etc, but HATED doing homework. I just resented having to take time out of my evening to do extra work. I always got in trouble about it, from 1st class right up to the Leaving Cert, and with both my teachers and my parents. It never changed my view. I am a successful professional now and am happy to work late the odd time at home, which is my choice rather than a "you must".

I have three kids now and I don't place a huge emphasis on it. The oldest, who's 10, is very self motivated and likes to have everything done just as asked, so she prefers to get her homework done before any after school activities, and gets anxious if it's not done. So I let her work away at it. My middle child is not as motivated, so I set a half hour limit (she's only in 2nd class) and sort of guide her through it. What she gets done in the half hour, she gets done. I happily write a note. Same for the odd day where we decide to just go shopping or to the cinema.

That said, it's a lot easier now that one of us is WFH. I found that when they did their homework in after-school, it was usually half done and the childminders had no idea how to guide them through it.

shesty

Our school is very light on homework. One senior infant, gets some reading every day, maybe one sheet with letters on it to write. One 2nd class gets small amount of maths daily and 2-3 spellings.Homework is sent home on a Monday to be returned on a Friday. Suits me perfectly, she can do 2 or 3 days all at one go when we have time.

My gang are early risers so we hit the homework in the mornings quite often, taking the rush out of the already busy evenings. Working from home has made this all much easier though.

I have friends with kids in other schools - younger than mine - getting ridiculous amounts of homework. I don't have any problem with it but I think it needs to be in proportion. A Junior infant doesn't need to have homework that amounts to sheets for 3 subjects a night - rotating between Maths/irish/religion/writing/reading, 3 of these per night - that is ridiculous and completely over the top.

anndub

Definitely not. Young children learn more from play then they do from anything they do at the kitchen table. Lots of air time given to the obesity epidemic we have sleep walked into in this country and yet we still have people advocating for prioritising sedentary activity over physical play.

It's more then enough for primary age children to be sitting down to academics for 4 or 5 hours a day in the classroom without it eating into the time they should be out playing in the afternoon and evening too.

anndub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119663473#Comment_119663473

Definitely not. Young children learn more from play then they do from anything they do at the kitchen table. Lots of air time given to the obesity epidemic we have sleep walked into in this country and yet we still have people advocating for prioritising sedentary activity over physical play.

It's more then enough for primary age children to be sitting down to academics for 4 or 5 hours a day in the classroom without it eating into the time they should be out playing in the afternoon and evening too.

Nothing wrong with homework.

In the 80s I had 3 language essays on weekends, written exercises in Math each night and reading and learning of French English, Irish each night, geography and history and music and science once a week. That was before Inter cert. Three hours a night, it was accepted. What's the alternative, Playstation or social media?

I think of the poetry Irish and English that I can quote, reference the great essayists and playwrights, and discuss the sciences. Not possible without homework and direction. A terrific education, delivered by passionate and dedicated scholars which has stood to me the world over.

Someone mentioned that kids had a right to disconnect.....they're kids and have no such rights.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077177#Comment_120077177

What's the alternative, Playstation or social media?

Sports, hobbies and general interests.

Three hours doing academic stuff is fine if you're studying for State exams or have a genuine interest in the stuff you mention, but if not it's a bit of overkill.

JDD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077177#Comment_120077177

What school did you go to? I did well in my junior cert and leaving cert. I speak french well (more to do with spending time in France than anything I learned in school). I speak literally no Irish, despite completing homework in it to the best of my ability three times a week for nigh on ten years. The only thing that has stood to me in later life are the curriculum (curriculi?) I completed in History, Economics and English for my Leaving Cert. If I think back to my junior cert, the only thing I can remember being of benefit now is Music Appreciation, which means I can read music, which helps with my children's piano lessons. That's it.

I was hopeless at completing homework - it didn't matter if it was 90 minutes worth or 3 hours worth. I was a diligent kid in class, but once I was home, I was home. I spent all of my time when I was supposed to be doing homework reading books. Something I really enjoyed. It's nonsense to say that the only alternatives are homework or instagram. And for younger kids, playing outside and then reading should wholly replace doing sentences and lists of maths problems. An exercise habit, a liking for the outdoors and a love for reading are going to stand to them so much better later on in life than being able to discuss the Boer War or the essays of Baudelaire at a dinner party.

St. Flannan's in Ennis. Fortunate to have the last of the great classical scholars teach me English and Irish and diligent and interested teachers in other subjects. There was order and discipline in the school. Since it became co-ed and numbers have doubled it is a tough place apparently.

JDD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085137#Comment_120085137

You were lucky, but I think you'd agree that your school would be an outlier - not just in the 80's but definitely now. Yes, there are schools with diligent and interested teachers. Occasionally you'll get a once in a lifetime teacher who instils an absolute passion in a subject, so that homework doesn't seem like work - just an extension of your own interests. But for most people the homework assigned to them is bland and uninspiring at best, and mostly - in my opinion - wholly unnecessary.

I think we should always stand back and look at a bigger picture. What is school supposed to teach us?

1. The basics of maths and science so that we have a rudimentary knowledge of the world around us, and so that we can budget and maintain our own finances (why don't we learn about how to calculate tax, or apply for a mortgage or loan as absolute basic? Rather than theorems which - despite doing honours maths - i have zero recollection of now).
2. How to play a sport that we might continue to play for recreation as adults. It does not need to be a team sport.
3. Read and appreciate two or three classic novels, plays and poems.
4. How to write in a clear and plain english manner, with acceptable (doesn't need to be perfect) grammar.
5. How to speak one other language.
6. A basic knowledge of history up to 100 years ago, and then history in a bit more detail so that we can understand the politics of what is going on now.
7. And then for those going on to higher education - they can specialise in two or three subjects that will help them in their upcoming college courses.

Personally I think schools should also teach cooking, first aid, how to swim and how to critically assess media as absolute core subjects, but I'afraid we fall down in these areas.

All of these things can be taught between 9am and 4pm, including assessments so that you know which children need a little help. There is absolute zero need for children to do one/two/three hours of homework a night in order to learn the above basics or for teachers to learn which pupils need more assistance. I am sure you would be equally as passionate now about what you learned in school had your school decided not to give out homework, and you spent your free time with friends, outdoors, or indulging in your own (healthy) interests.

kerryjack

Our president Michael D is giving the No Homework a good old push these days smart man that sees the benefits of sport and play after school.

I have to agree, it's completely outdated and does more harm than good in some instances.

In 6th class, we used to have to write out the question, literally copy it from the textbook into our copybooks, followed by the answer. This was for every subject, except Irish, where we would have to write out the question, translate it first, and then write out the answer as Gaeilige. The whole premise behind it was to get you ready for secondary school and the increased workload.

I've never had as much written work in my life and all I got out of it was an increased hatred of Irish and a permanent lump on my middle finger where the pen used to rest/rub off it. The only writing I do by hand is when I'm signing for anything these days. Completely archaic back in the days before the Good Friday Agreement, never mind today. More stick than carrot, which is never the way to go.

Calahonda52

Lengthen the school year, not enough being done, we are falling behind in all metrics against our EU partners, as we continue to dumb the whole educational scene down to the lowest common dominator.

I have been in schools for the past 20 years and while inward migration has its benefits, the teaching is being dumbed down to the communication skills of the child with the least amount of english, in large classes.

I am in a primary school now where 185 from the 250 children don't have two native english speaking parents.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120147506#Comment_120147506

This sounds like an anti-teachers-having-long-holidays post, so I'll assume you're not a teacher - but have you any evidence of the claim in the first sentence and any logic to backup the theory that more equals better? Could it be the quality of training tecahers recieve that causes it? Or inefficent syllabus/course content?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120147290#Comment_120147290

Jimmy Fallon picked up this story on the Tonight Show yesterday (at 6.21 in this clip)

https://youtu.be/rYsFccffZqo

His punchline - Is the President of Ireland a 9 year old girl?

Weirdly, for a man who prides himself on his academic status and loves to smother us with sociological jargon, the President didn’t have a single data point to support his proposal (yeah, this President makes policy proposals without regard to the government but we’re past that now.)

Did he not ask if anyone ever did a study of the cost/benefit of homework or does he, like his distinguished predecessor, simply look into his heart? What about the ESRI and that huge longitudinal study of our young people?

JDD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120153578#Comment_120153578

In fairness, he was talking on News2Day and answering questions from primary school pupils, one of whom asked what he thought about homework. I don't think that was really to forum to start talking about ESRI reports.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120163992#Comment_120163992

True, but the President never speaks without purpose, he has in no way resiled from these remarks despite the public reaction, and there is momentum behind the “no homework” idea.

Minister Foley responded cooly to the idea in the Dáil but she was careful to say to the media that "It would not be appropriate for a Government Minister to engage in public debate with the office of the President.” (I doubt if she thinks it appropriate for the President to make proposals in her area of responsibility but that horse has bolted).

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/minister-norma-foley-rules-out-26076448

Interestingly, she says the decision is a matter for individual schools, but who decides for the school- the Principal, the Board of Management, individual teachers? What about the parents?

And, as I suspected, the Department has no study of the issue. So we are just wandering around n a fog of confusion.

JDD

Why should he resile from them though? If he truly believes children will be better off without homework, he should be able to say it. We all know the President has no law making power. And the standard line from the government is always that - that they don't comment on opinions of the President. It's hardly a constitutional crisis.

I doubt there are any scientific studies done on whether homework benefits or harms children. It'd be a very difficult study to complete, for a start, as financial and parental factors will always play a much bigger role in academic achievement then the completion or non-completion of homework. That's aside from the ethics of withdrawing or adding homework on to primary school children in order to measure their effects.

All we can really do is compare similar countries where homework is prevalent and where homework isn't. Compare the happiness levels of both populations of children, and compare employability levels for those children as they reach adulthood. That's the only way to figure out whether homework is helpful.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166334#Comment_120166334

It has been forgotten in the past decade but the standard constitutional position was that the President did not speak on controversial topics or make policy proposals without clearance from the Government That was because we have a parliamentary democracy based on the Westminster model in which our Presidency was created to remove the British monarch. Our Government has now surrendered to an activist Presidency i.e. bites it’s tongue.

If it is too difficult to devise a study to assess the value of homework, what empirical research can be done in the field of education? On what basis do the battalions of education experts base their views?

Commonsense says that a modest amount of homework (no more than an hour a night) is useful in primary when kids finish school at 2pm. Who would object to that (apart from Jimmy Fallon’s nine year old)?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166859#Comment_120166859

Most nine year olds won't have finished at 2pm for many years, maybe a third of their life. 3 is normal enough after infants

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167390#Comment_120167390

Primary schools have a 5 hr. and 40 minute day (less for infant classes). Many schools start at 8.30 am and therefore finish at 2.10 pm (but in practice the last class finishes by 2 pm).

Even an hour of homework leaves them ample time for other activities (unless they are hooked to a screen😩).

Supercell

Our three primary kids just get on with it as soon as they get home. Usually no more than half an hours work so not onourous and none on Fridays.

My middle child struggles a little with maths and I can see the benefit of having us helping her to reinforce what she learned in school. The other two just ask us to sign at the bottom 🤣 They all go to a local Gaelscoil so Irish homework is never an issue thankfully! Honestly we would struggle more i think if they went to an English speaking school as I did pass Irish in my leaving and am terrible at languages and my wife isnt from Ireland originally so doesnt speak a word.

fits

Yeah I have a struggling reader and I’m glad of the homework to help him with it. I’m not sure I’d be fully aware of his challenges otherwise.

Caquas

A sensible commentary from the mother of primary school kids in support of a reasonable level of homework. Some interesting international comparisons.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/homework-is-valuable-for-primary-school-pupils-and-they-need-more-of-it-not-less-42333887.html

And she points out "We still have no assessment of Covid learning loss. Last year, some primary classes took standardised tests, and these results are due in May. They may prompt some homework protesters to change their mind."

It is now over 1,000 days since Leo Varadkar, our once and future Taoiseach, shut down all schools (Ya missed that milestone? Of course, 'cos no one wants you to remember). Seems like all our education researchers are too busy to figure out what effect that unprecedented, nationwide closure had on a generation of students.

One thing to bear in mind is our class sizes. A class can have up to 30 students, so giving 30 students individual attention and picking up on every individual’s particular needs during a school day can be challenging. I think having a small amount of quality homework that reinforces what has been taught is beneficial.

I also feel that things like phonics, emergent reading skills and tables are essential skills that only improve with consistent practice.

There simply isn’t enough time in the school day. During a typical ‘Literacy Hour’ there are on average 4 separate reading ability groups and each group gets an average of 12 mins for 8 children. So not a lot of time to hear each individual child. If the children weren’t given reading homework, their actual contact time with books to develop their fluency and comprehension skills would be very limited.

Spending hours on end on homework is absolutely counterproductive but as I said a small amount of quality work that reinforces what’s being taught is useful. It really should be kept to a minimum. It also gives me an insight on my own child’s progress and struggles that I wouldn’t otherwise get.