Suspect rental price is higher than it legally should be.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049517#Comment_119049517

I suspect what is getting up readers noses is the hypocrisy shown by the op. I doubt any of us think the op is taking a stand on behalf of society. He/she didn’t bother to even find the most basic information needed to support his/her suspicion/allegation, and the suspicion was no bar to signing the lease apparently.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049642#Comment_119049642

But it shouldn’t be a bar to signing the lease? OP happy and can afford to pay, but now just exploring potential of getting a reduction on legal grounds.

It’s perfectly rationale to move in, attain rights and then investigate. Trying to investigate at the outset would mean zero chance of getting the place. And simply refusing to sign the lease on principal would mean the landlord gets to ignore the rules and move onto someone who won’t investigate it.

Whether or not RPZ are right/fair/good is a seperate topic. But they’re the law and the only way they will ever be adhered to is if landlords fear exactly what the OP plans to do (move in for a year or 2 and then stick him for a €15k fine). So I say good on him. If it became widespread that all tenants requested evidence as they moved out, it would be by far the most cost effective way of ensuring the measures are adhered too.

Wouldnt feel remotely sorry for any landlord caught…in the same way I don’t feel sorry for anyone caught by an income tax audit.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049666#Comment_119049666

You are part of the same hypocrisy. The op isn’t just now exploring getting a reduction, he/she has been planning this before signing lease/moving in. You know how this will end, unless the op can show his/her rent is illegally above what was charged to the previous tenant a year ago/before refurb, the op is going to be kicked out, again, that will be 3 times in a year by the way.

I don’t feel sorry for LLs either by the way when they break the law, nothing the op has posted though supports that this LL has. I do however feel sorry if any LL who has the misfortune to rent to bad tenants.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049691#Comment_119049691

Yes…because this was the only way the OP had any realistic way of both securing the property and ensuring the rent charged was legal. Everything they’re doing makes perfect sense. Ideally they’d wait as long as possible (til they leave naturally or landlord kicks them out) but sadly the max €15k fine prevents that so they’ll have to do it a bit earlier.

Your view on the world is just that all tenants should ignore RPZ rules and landlords should run no risk of getting caught. Accept the rent asked or move on. Wonder which side of it you’re on…

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049713#Comment_119049713

Everything? Ask the op what rent the previous tenant was paying.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049713#Comment_119049713

We dont know the amount the OP THINKS they are being overcharged. They could very well be causing alot of trouble for themselves and their landlord over nothing. This will probably result in this property being sold and taken out of the rental market. So will it be a win for the tenents of Ireland - no it wont.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049727#Comment_119049727

Literally impossible for anyone to ever know this and if this was required then the law could never be enforced. He has a hunch. He has a right to ask through legal channels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049738#Comment_119049738

Bizzare comment. Literally 0 trouble to send on previous rent or works done to show compliance. If compliant, tenant will continue to pay the full and legal rent and landlord will lose zero. He would therefore be evicting tenant and selling the property purely for being asked a question. Do you think the landlord is an actual baby?

TheW1zard

Whats bad is planning to take the case before even signing a lease, and before being allowed to move in I think!

Do you think the landlord would have agreed if he was told that? Remember the OP doesnt know what the rent was....

covidcustomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119024876#Comment_119024876

But they are required to and if they don't then they should be reported, because whether or not the LL is charging the correct rent, he is still required to provide the following:

• The amount of rent that was last set under a tenancy for the dwelling,
• The date the rent was last set under a tenancy for the dwelling, and
• A statement as to how the rent set under the tenancy of the dwelling has been calculated having regard to the Rent Pressure Zone calculator.

If ALL LL's did this, then prospective tenant's wouldn't be in this situation, I'm struggling with some of the responses here, because the solution is there.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049793#Comment_119049793

Eh, no, it really isn’t. If you are going to accuse someone of acting illegally, then it is important to have something to support the allegation, otherwise every numpty who rents a property would be bringing unfounded disputes to the RTB, fishing for wrongdoing.

NeptunesMoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049691#Comment_119049691

I'm not sure if you're implying I'm a bad tenant with your "3 times in a year" comment, perhaps after looking at previous posts? For context, I was in one place for over a decade, the owners passed away and the receivers of the will decided to sell. The next place I moved into was an already existing house share, the owner decided to sell due to financial pressure the week after I moved in, and no, nothing to do with me. I've great references from both.

You seem to be fixated on the fact I don't know the previous rental figure. I'm simply exploring my options with this post in the case that it comes to light that it's an over charge. That's why the thread is title includes "suspect" as there is uncertainty, but I do have good reason to believe this is the case such as:

Current rental price is in line with higher priced properties and a much higher price than the average as indicated for the area in the latest Rental Index from RTB.

Neighbour in a bigger property which the lease began on 2 years ago and is less than 50 meters away, is paying 28% less and the price they are paying is more in line with average pricing.

Looking at the Rental Index from the year the previous tenants moved in, although it doesn't give specifics with regards to property sizes etc back then, it's 170% higher now, than what the average was stated as back then. Allowing for possible discrepancies, I'd say it's risen 100% at least.

If these aren't red flags for you, I don't know what you would consider reason to suspect. It seems the only time you'd warrant cause would be if the previous tenant or neighbours knew specifically what was being paid and told the new tenants?

Also, what hypocrisy are you referring to? What have I done or said that is hypocritical?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049793#Comment_119049793

Of course the OP is causing trouble for themselves - I dont mean the paperwork - I mean what comes afterwards Unless the OP is in a position to buy their own property they are screwing themselves because no landlord will want to rent to them.

NeptunesMoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049474#Comment_119049474

I know quite a bit about the Landlord. I know they have multiple investment properties and I know that if the rent I'm paying is in line with what was previously being charged, the rental income would have already covered the cost of the property as listed on property price register when they bought it. I'm not out to do in landlords. I'd simply rather that money in my pocket, than it going towards their fortune, which they have already alluded to in conversation. I understand the consequences yes. I never said I'd pursue this even if I had the evidence. I'm simply posting here to explore the situation.

[Deleted User]

Think the issue here is the OP only has a suspicion that there is a difference between the rent they are paying and what was paid previously. They have acknowledged that there was work performed on the property that may or may not allow for a rental increase. They should challenge the rent issue now if they have concerns but they are making a decision to sit on it for a lengthy period until their tenancy is secure. If they are wrong in their assumption it will create a lot of work for the landlord and they will have little recorse at that stage. Have a chat with the landlord now, if they are overcharging they may reduce the rent to prevent future hassle or furnish you with proof of why the increase is valid.

NeptunesMoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119050002#Comment_119050002

Thanks for the suggestion but I think they may only seek to find a reason to evict before part 4 rights are in place if they feel they will have to drop the rent when they could get somebody else in who is unaware of the potential overcharge or their rights.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049969#Comment_119049969

I agree. I know an auctioneer extremely well. They are based in a town with 3 other auctioneers and they all keep in touch about rentals.

What's also happening I've been told is when a local property goes up for rent privately landlords that have had dealings with a bad tenant are passing names on to others.

It's a small world.

[Deleted User]

If you are not paying cash it would be very dificult for the landlord to continue overcharging you or future tenants if there is a review by the rtb. If your landlord registers with the rtb and the rent amount on the letter you receive from the rtb is accurate there is a high probability that the rent is correct. If you feel the refurbishment was not substantial enough to warrent a rent increase challenge it now, in two years it will be more difficult for you to establish the works carried out and the condition of the property prior to refurbishment. The issue facing you more so is that the landlord might determine you to be a problematic tenant early and wish to terminate any agreement while they still have an opportunity to do so.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049817#Comment_119049817

Either the landlord is charging legal rent, in which case he should be happy to demonstrate this at any stage. Before moving in or a year after. Makes no difference. Very low key, reasonable discussion to have with a tenant at any stage.

Alternatively the landlord is doing something illegal, in which case if the OP asked up front, LL would have declined him and moved his illegally activity onto someone else who wouldn’t check. I’m fairly sure anyone committing an offense would love to know in advance if they’re going to get caught or not. What the OP has done is make sure LL doesn’t have that luxury. Win/win. Smart move by OP

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119050649#Comment_119050649

It's not really a win for renters if it takes a rental property out of the market but I agree with the theory of your post.

[Deleted User]

If the landlord registers with the RTB then presumably he is operating within the law and the relevant documentation will be issued to the OP by the RTB supporting this in due time. If it's not by all means the OP should follow up with either the landlord or RTB. If the OP believes the scale of the renovations are not sufficient to support a rent increase they should also question the increase. What the OP is suggesting sitting on this information for two years in the hopes of getting a few euro back at the end of their tenancy will probably end up just annoying everybody involved. Why not do it in 7 months when part four kicks in? This bangs of trying to get one over on a landlord and trying to do as much damage as possible. If the market remains competitive in 2 years best of luck OP in finding a new place to live.

ballyharpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049988#Comment_119049988

Youve actually made me throw up in my mouth, this is the third time you've written this.

Ok, so you see the price the landlord paid for the property, they took a gamble, there were times that property was being practically given away, no one was investing/buying, as they thought they would go to zero, so it was a big risk, there were very few people getting mortgages, so probably paid cash, missing out on gains in other investments-take a look at the gains on stocks in 10-12 years. Maybe they had to service a mortgage and leveraged themselves to get it. Maybe they've had tenants that haven't paid rent? Have they done upgrades since they bought it.

Maybe they were very nice to their previous tenants and hadn't raised the rent, like me. for the last few years Ive raised the rent in both of my RPZ properties, and hadnt done so in 5 years before that, but I have been doing it now, the reasons being, if I rent in future , I could be locked in at an extremely low rate for years, as there was/is talk of a rent freeze. If I want to sell the property, and I may leave tenants in situ, the buyers will want to get a high return. Had there been no RPZ, the rent would be about 10% below where it is now, and I am still 10-15% below market rent in both properties.

In my other properties, Ive been raising the rent to market levels in line with whats allowed, for the same as above mentioned reasons, they could become RPZ's.

Regarding comparing it to prices I've paid v's current market prices, restaurant prices are now charging more in accordance with lease conditions, even though some own properties and some are on old lease low rents, should I start finding out what theyve paid> then after I eat there, refuse to pay the agreed amount?

There are contractors/bakers that bought equipment and tools at prices much lower than current market prices, but they are now charging the same as others that have recently purchased tools etc at a high price-and they are already worth a fortune, why should I contribute to their fortunes? After all, plumbing is a necessity, food is a necessity etc.

Eircom_Sucks

Asking can he accept the rent and move in to then try and get it down by asking advice on how to so it , thats a snake move

not all ll are loaded

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049988#Comment_119049988

Do you know how much tax he paid on the rental income and the mortgage value he took out on the property along with mortgages on the other properties? Without this knowledge you know nothing about how much money they make nor if the property is paid for.

You can show your calculations because if rent can pay for a house in 6 years I will start investing in that location because that is an amazing return. Where is this because if it is the RPZ that sounds like an amazing return up there with some of the highest investment returns.

Or is it you ignored tax payments completely and didn't consider any running costs.

Either way you have set the rules about only focusing on the rent you pay and it is absolutely none of your business what the landlord make nor how the market works. Is the rent comparable to market rates or not? If it is you really shouldn't be complaining nor trying to be sneaky. You are pointing out you are being intentionally sneaky even wanting to file a complaint anonymously.

I asked you early on why you even want to deal with somebody you don't trust. It seems the reason is you wanted to make a claim. As for people going on about fines of 15k, maximum fine and first time offender is certainly not going to get that if it even gets that far which it won't. Fines don't go to the tenant and rent payback is separate. Just asking a question is not harmless and anybody with any sense knows that. Having worked with civil servants and "reporting" of people does not magically mean the person accused is found guilty, pursued or even charged when found in the wrong. Court is the last stage and will take a long time to get there if at all.

I am not saying you don't have rights to pursue this if you can prove it which you apparently can't just that you going into the agreement as you did is pretty low life stuff. You basically gave your word on an agreement that you don't intend to honour. So effectively your word is not worth much. I doubt it will really effect your ability to rent afterwards but if it goes to court and you win it really will. No landlord would rent to you as it is an easy search and a record of you signing a lease and then report the rent will be on record. What landlord will trust you after that? You will effectively publicising you are sneaky and untrustworthy. Will the rent be worth that when you can't find a place to live.

spaceHopper

@NeptunesMoon

This is my situation, my father had a house in flats, he died, I manage for my mother who isn't in good health  and the income from the house will be needed to pay for her care.

Dad kept the rents low he had good tenants for the most part.  Now that we have rent controls and one of the flats is empty, I was planning on doing it up and renting it at close to but below what I feel are unfair rents. The things I will cost about 15 to 20K to do so and I legally can't rent it for more than 1100 I was thinking of asking for 1600, for two bed close to the city centre. It's a lot but I think it's fair. Wish the RTB would answer their phones.

 Now if it was just me and I could afford to I'd do it up and air B&B it for 90 days, keep it off the market for two years and put it on at the full market rate whatever that is, fair or not. Over 5 years it would generate more income.  That’s how the system is sked

I find it appalling that you feel so entitled to rent a place for rent you are happy to accept but are planning to live there for two years then take a case against you LL to get some extra money on the side. Not because you feel it's an unfair rent but because you feel he's breaking what amounts to a very unfair legal situation. Compounding this is the fact that you know the last tenant wrecked the place. Put yourself in your LL's shoes, think about the stress that probably caused them and how much debit they may have racked up.

I'm glad there is one fly in your ointment. The last tenant probably paid no rent in the last two years so what the LL has done is probably OK, so you will probably poison your relationship with them over nothing.

By the way it’s people like you that stop me from advertising places on daft, what I now do is ask existing tenants if they know anybody interested. Since the current flat became free two of them have approached me on behalf of friends

Mad_maxx

If the landlord carried out significant improvements on the house after last tenants left, they can ignore previous rent as a basis for setting new rent, now they would need to do a fair bit

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055425#Comment_119055425

Thanks but no joy as far as I know they changed the regs you have to extend the property by at least 25% which isn't possible. There is some malarkey about BER changes but that to isn't relevant, it's already a warm flat but the house is very old.

I tried to call the RTB but they simply don't answer their phones and have some nonsense about web chat but it's not there. They used to be OK to deal with but have become swamped and not given extra resources. Mum is looking at needing home care costing about 37K pa. So spending 20k to update it makes no sense or spending 5 to to the absolute minimum and rent it. To get a return on 20 she'd have to earn an additional 40 and I don't see that happening in the next 3 years.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055622#Comment_119055622

It isn't that hard and you don't have to add 25%. Layout changes can be enough. A "warm" place in a really old building is possible but the BER rating is the key. Get a very harsh review now then get a more professional report after you are done. Upgrading BER is not always cheap but you would be surprised on small cumulative effects combined can do

NeptunesMoon

Came back to give an update on this. Theres a few comments above I haven't had a chance to get back to but maybe the below will answer them:

So we've now been living here over 6 months and in that time the previous tenant came to collect mail. We got talking and they we're shocked at the rent we are paying. Their last increase came into effect January 2020, If I recall, they moved out around August 2021, and we moved in May 2022. The rent increase between the figure we pay and what the increase was in January 2020 is over 105%!

Furthermore, the ad listed on daft for the property stated it had a B2 BER rating. I didn't realise, but you can actually check the BER rating of a house here: https://ndber.seai.ie/PASS/BER/Search.aspx

I checked this link with the MPRN number and there are no results, the search works just fine for other addresses I tried with BER assessments done both recently and years and years ago so I believe this place has never had a BER assessment and they falsely advertised it as a B2.

The place is also ridiculously cold, checking surfaces with an infra-red thermometer, i'ts ranging from 6 to 11 degrees inside. If you put the heating on boost this might improve, but within an hour of the heating being off, it's quickly cold again. I was in a B3 rated house today and it was so much warmer. Had underfloor heating, stoves installed etc and still only managed a B3. There's absolutely no way ours is a B2. We're all wearing jackets and hats around the house. I also don't think a sufficient amount of improvement was done to the property to allow for the rent increase.

The LL's have also become far less responsive and responsible. We've been waiting on action to be taken on some issues for months now with no resolve.

advice on what we can do now would be brill, cheers!

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976616#Comment_119976616

That is a shocking increase for what seems on the surface to be a minimal amount of work done on the flat in a supposed RPZ. I wonder might an independent BER be worth getting done to further bolster your case? Perhaps people on this thread could advise?

Kaisr Sose

Thanks for coming back and updating.

Agree that its a shocking increase plus what you outline on heating does not sound like B2.

Will you raise this with RTB?