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Heat Pump Quotes

  • 10-04-2022 9:08am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭


    Given there is a 6.5k grant for heat pumps now, I started looking into it more seriously. The initial quotes I got seem very high, especially as an A2W unit can be bought direct for under 5k, so surely there must be installers adding a few k on top, rather than the astronomical quotes I've been getting. So here's my attempt at a quote template.

    • Type: air to water
    • Size: 16kw
    • Brand: Daikin
    • Cylinders replaced: 0
    • Rads replaced: 0
    • Cost 13.5k + VAT

    Aa you can see I'm quite shocked the install woukd be 8.5k for likely a days work by 2 or 3 lads. Has anyone done better?



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,849 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    My experience is once a grant is involved the end result will costa more. For you to get the grants your installer has to be registered with sei. I believe the pay amount will fee for the privilege. The have to be fully insured and tax compliant. This means all of the workers are on the books and paying tax. You are limited in your choice for someone to do the work so higher quotes.

    I'm a little surprised that you don't need to increase the size of your rads though.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 8,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jonathan


    Out of interest, how did you arrive at the 16kW sizing for the HP? Came across this video the other day and I thought it was very interesting.




  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf



    Thanks for raising that - It was 'recommended' by the installer. The house is 3,500 sq ft, and has a heat-loss assessment of 1.7, so not sure exactly how that converts. We go through around 1600L of oil per year - all consumed between October and April (outside of that solar thermal and solar PV provides all we need). 1600L suggests 16,500 KWh of energy is needed total. Lets assume that is all used over 3 months, that would be 17 L of oil a day, or 184KWh of energy a day - which suggests a 16KW heat pump would be running full-tilt for 11.5 hours. I guess that suggests a smaller unit could do the job.

    Going by the video - 16,500 / 57.3 = 288 W/C, not far off the figure he's using.

    If we assume a cold day the temp differential is 30C, the 8.6KW, or 206.w KWh/day.

    So both methods are suggesting 16KWh is oversized. Good to know.

    One thing that may justify a larger unit is, rather than run 24h a day, I'd prefer to be able to use night rate to do the most of my heating, so could bias stats to heat more at night. I do take the point that night air is colder to lowers the CoP, so may need a balance - but night rate is still a lot cheaper than day so still makes sense.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    As night rate is half of day rate usually, It would be still beneficial to run on night rate.

    Was a buffer tank talked about? what heat loss number do you need to meet to get the grant?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    That's a HUGE amount of energy per day! Are you sure 180kWh is right?

    My whole house elec usage varies from low 20s to mid 30s kWh per day including an A2W heat pump with hot water topped up 24/7 as needed (been meaning to time limit this).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,053 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    1600L suggests 16,500 KWh of energy is needed total. Lets assume that is all used over 3 months, that would be 17 L of oil a day, or 184KWh of energy a day - which suggests a 16KW heat pump would be running full-tilt for 11.5 hours.

    Something isn’t right with those calcs.

    A 16kW HP ruining for 11hrs a day would have the house like a furnace.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    hold on, Its used from oct to April.

    which is 7 months, not 3 (granted maybe 2 thirds of it is in Nov, Dec, Jan?)

    Also Im assuming you dont have a condensing boiler? so your running at maybe 70 - 80% efficiency? 1600L is about 16000Kwh. at 80% is 12800 kwh

    Say 6 months instead of 3. 180 days, 12800, which is 71kwh/day of heat, and if you get a COP of 3 its 23kwh of electric/day

    23/day for 180 days is 4140 and average kwh of electric is 20c, = 828

    1600L of oil is now say 115 (cheapest one on cheapest oil for donegal for me) €1840



  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    2.0 I believe, but I think 2.3 or so is OK in some cases. I already have a buffer tank as I use it with my oil boiler.

    I don't have any rads, all ufh, which is why I need 0 to be changed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    180kwh is assuming the worst day, and doesn't factor in the COP, at a value of 4 that brings the the energy input down to 180/4, or 45kwh. Again this was specifically exaggerated so the calcs are sized for a worst case few days, rather than typical winter's dat



  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf



    I was compressing the usage of 7 months into 3 months as most is used over that time, but I agree I was probably being overly pessimistic. Just being careful it's not undersized and would fail to keep the house warm in a bad winter. The boiler is condensing, so assume 90 percent efficency, but good point it shoud be factored in.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf



    As it happens heat pump installers dont need to be registered with seai, they just need to have done approved courses by they heat pump manufacturers, and the electrical work must be done by a reci certified electrician. So pretty basic requirements there. Still doesn't justify the 8k install cost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,849 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    To be honest I'm more confused as to why rad size isn't increasing.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk




  • Registered Users Posts: 64,662 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    A COP of 4 in Ireland from December to February? Good luck with that!



  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    What is a reasonable average COP to expect? Looking online it seems to suggest some models get a cop of 3+ above -2c, and 4+ above 7c.



  • Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Latro


    My COP values according to the app for the past 4 months:

    Dec 4.4, Jan 3.8, Feb 4.5, March 3.8, Apr 3.9



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    That's cool, I wonder what the (outside) temperatures was for them months too.

    What flow temperature is it running at?

    Is that heating and DHW or just heating?

    - just trying to learn more with real world numbers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,662 ✭✭✭✭unkel




  • Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Latro


    The average external temperature is the black line.

    Cost on the left, based on current 0.177c per kWh rate.

    Year to date usage 1451 kWh, total cost of 257 euro.

    Water flow varies depending on external temperature - weather compensation curve.

    The house is 200sqm, the heating is on all the time, internal temperaturre is always around 21 degrees.

    All steel double radiators up and downstairs + 1 Solo 06 fancoil near the entrance. The house was built in 2007/2008.



  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    Got a breakdown on the quote mentioned above. 8.5k (+vat) for the HP itself. I found a summer 2021 price list online and that same daikin unit is lasted as 4.6k gbp. 2k plumbing install, 1.5k electrical, 2k for other install. It's funny money, with no rads being replaced, no tanks being replaced, just swapping out the boiler 2k plumbing is astronomical. Yet another grant ruined by price gouging.



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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Re done our bathroom at the start of the year, Got the lad down the road to do the plumbing, and the price of even basic fittings would shock you. Couple hundred euro on them alone. He done a great job, will make a great plumber.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Anyone put in a high temperature ground to water heat pump recently? Looking for any feedback on how well it went, and how it's performing,

    Thanks

    Steve

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    Love to clarify if that's water and heating or just one or the other.


    Overall my ecodan unit ran at just over 2.4 electricity in Vs heat out in 2021 but it ran a lot in the winter as we only just got back in to the house in summer (large renovation the heat pump was part of) and were still 'discussing' thermostat settings for a while.... Constant temp Vs that old Irish feel the heat as you step in the door scenario....



  • Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Zenith74


    • Type: air to water
    • Size: 16kw
    • Brand: Viessmann
    • Type: heating+DHW monobloc with integral 180l DHW and 40l buffer tank
    • Cylinders replaced: N/A
    • Rads replaced: 0
    • Cost: €18k inc VAT ex grant
    • Other info: includes a power flush, filter unit, all fittings, no electrical work

    Curious what quotes others are seeing at the moment if you don’t mind sharing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,662 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    How much is the grant on that? Seems like an awful lot of money, will take a long time to pay back for itself and with the current peak electricity rate being at least double the cost of gas, probably never.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    That's more than what I paid for 11kW ecodan install but mine included replumbing the whole house and new rads and UFH laying....

    Even with inflation I'd imagine there's a fair bit of wiggle room on that price.

    Mine included thermostats etc as part of that too.... But not the electrical side of things..... Which is a bit annoying as you're asking sparks to learn systems for an install instead of the heat pump crowd having their own sparks and "owning" the job.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,515 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Who can you get to size a system like this, outside of say company's trying to sell you their stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Zenith74


    To get the grant you have to have a Technical Assessment done in advance, they’re carried about by SEAI-approved BER Assessor type people, so independent of heatpump installer/sellers. Their report includes info about the heating required for the house, mine specified a 14-16kW heatpump from memory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Zenith74


    €6500 grant to come off that, still a fair chunk of change! Our kerosene boiler is due replacement and I’m willing to pay the ‘green premium’ to heat our house more cleanly, I just want to make sure I’m getting good value while doing so :-)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,515 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Cheers, I suppose I'm more looking at heating engineer as opposed to BER assessors. I.e sizing a unit radiator sizes UFH possibilities.



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