Apprentice billed for

Guys is it normal for a first year apprentice coming on a job with a spark to be added to a customers bill?

They were with me 4 hours and he just stood around watching. I feel I'm being fleeced being asked to pay for that.

Added to that they billed me for 5 hours but that's a different story.

2011

Apprentices have to be paid, they can’t work for free. To be able to pay them they need to be billed for.

This does not excuse paying someone for doing nothing.

Sleeper12

Other tradesmen just give you the bill without mentioning the apprentice but their wages will be in the bill anyway. Your electrician just broke down the labour part of the bill. The apprentice does a lot of back & forward to the van. There could be part of the job where he can't do without the lad. Even if it's only for 10 minutes.

Buddy Bubs

How much was the labour charge for 4 hours? And what work did they do?

That's more important than whether he was billing for example 60 an hour himself and 20 for apprentice or 40 an hour for each of them. Or 80 for himself and not charge for apprentice.

Price should be important without a doubt but i wouldn't worry about breakdown on its own.

It was 40 and 16. Ex vat.

He put in an immersion switch up to the tank in the attic. A sensor light over the back door. Turned around a socket in a press for easier access and connected a tado wireless extension to replace an existing heating control.

Took 4 hours and was billed for 5.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902233#Comment_118902233

When you say billed for 5 instead of 4, did you supply all the materials? Or did he have to go to the suppliers? I'd imagine that's where the extra hour is. He has to charge for time involved in buying materials for your job

His rate seems fair assuming the work was done correctly.

Buddy Bubs

56 x 5 is 280 plus vat for half a day work plus travel

Those rates certainly don't seem excessive to me he could prob only bill another hour or 2 in the day. You got a few things done too. Tradesman rates are expensive for homeowners without a doubt but don't see any way you paid over the odds here.

Dr Turk Turkelton

We're they teleported there from previous job and onto next job?

If not I'd say the hour was to cover travelling to and from your place.

@Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902272#Comment_118902272

They went into town to get parts. Took an hour. Arrived at 9 were gone to their next job at 12.45. It was a friend of mine they were going to and I let her know they'd be on the way.

@Dr Turk Turkelton I was their first job. Their office is 5 minutes from my house.

HBC08

Seems like your got a good deal.

Try and find any other electricians and see will they even take your call.

Was the charge per hour, or "per hour plus part thereof"?

I've been charged where a guy was there for 20 minutes into the next hour, and charged the full hour for it.

I didn't query it, as I thought it was normal practice?

I'd take it as a good sign that your guy itemised for the apprentice for charged VAT. He obviously does things by the book, which means he most likely doesn't cut corners with his standard of work either.

I'd be okay with that, as otherwise, like said, he'd just add the apprentice fee onto his own and say nothing.

893bet

Did the look at the job in advance?

blingrhino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902273#Comment_118902273

280 for a half day and doesnt seem excessive !

Any wonder we are heading for a recession.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902667#Comment_118902667

What's a fair price for a tradesperson in your opinion?

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902667#Comment_118902667

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902667#Comment_118902667

So it’s 280 for two people.

Oit of that 280 the following will be paid

Employer prsi

Income tax/PRSI/usc

Maintenance of tools

Van running costs (fuel, tax, insurance, doe etc).

all other overheads ie sick pay, pension, holidays allowance (any no holiday pay when you are self employed), insurance, accountant,

wages to the apprentice

The 280 didn’t disappear into his pocket like magic.

I am willing to bet you are not self employed and probably not salary based either and see it purely as a “per hour” thing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902623#Comment_118902623

It's a big company. A guy standing around for 4 hours watching a qualified guy doing the work isn't really my problem. If a company decides to send a man for training that's their cost not mine.

I regularly sent guys out with a driver to learn a route. I never. Billed the customer for the privilege.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902742#Comment_118902742

Good job you didn't put any money on that bet. You'd have lost.

When I was in the private sector I regularly managed million euro departments. I know about costs.

When you're billing someone by the hour it becomes a per hour thing, not a job price.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902654#Comment_118902654

No. I told them what needed doing. They arrived. Went for the parts and came back to get it done

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902787#Comment_118902787

Did you get a quote for the job beforehand?

If you want there to be more electricians in ten years time, we need to encourage apprenticeships.

blingrhino

OP says it was 4 hours

Thats 560 for an 8 hour day or a gross of 2800 per week for a 40 hour week.

Paying an apprentice 400-500 a week which i presume is good money for an apprentice leaves 2300 gross with the

obvious deductions that we all have, still leaves a healthy wage for a 40 hour week dont you think.

i am a self employed retailer and do not make this kind of money for a 48 hr week.

Car99

I wish I was a plumber or an electrician instead of current trade

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902783#Comment_118902783

Another lad who knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902783#Comment_118902783

That poster wasn't referring to you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902801#Comment_118902801

Not sure where you're getting your information? OP stated the electrician billed 40/h ex vat.

Apprentice at the stage where they're just watching is probably stage 1, so low 200's per week.

MAULBROOK

€40 and €16 per hour is not a lot my company charges €135 per hour. minimum charge is 3 hours.

Just saying.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902783#Comment_118902783

For someone who allegedly manages million euros contracts you failed to notice my post was not directed at you rather at the person I quoted.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902801#Comment_118902801

Of course you don't unless what you're retailing is in exceptionally high demand like trades people at the moment.

One fella on here claiming he ran multi million euro departments and not being able to understand the breakdown of a bill and that the tax,insurance,accountancy,tools (outlay and maintenance) vehicle and transport have to be paid........oh the the electrician might want to turn a bit of profit himself aswell.

Some people see a tradesperson in a beat up van and his overalls covered in sh1te and then are taken aback at an hourly rate that is probably more than his own middle management salary.

I'm not a tradesperson by the way.I work primarily as a carer so a PAYE job,however I also run a seasonal business on the side so I see it from both ends.Actually going out and creating money for yourself as a sole trader or small limited company (as in my case) is a lot more work.It wrecks my head when people who haven't a notion start questioning our prices and rates.Its like a surprise to them that to do everything by the book,Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in the world.

2011

I think the moral of the story is that you should agree a price up front.

My personal view is that the OP did not pay over the odds.

@blingrhino I would expect that a decent electrician would earn more than most “self employed retailers”.

Tradesmen particularly electricians and plumbers are expensive and there simply aren’t enough of them to go around. There are very few young apprentices, many young people feel that they would be better off some random (often pointless) arts degree.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902769#Comment_118902769

Fair enough.

I deal with dozens of contractors and tradepeople and part of my work is dealing with their invoices, and I honestly don't think those rates are excessive.

I hope they at least did a good job.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904627#Comment_118904627

I don't think the rates are bad either but just found it odd to be paying for them to train a guy. That's not my concern and the spark could have done the job without him there.

Can't fault the work.

maestroamado

You asked for a person to come and do a job and two came and you paid both.. no way Jose... i worked in the trade and i always found i would do a considerable amount of work alone than with an apprentice asking questions... now if the person had say 6 months on-site i would expect to pay... I didn't bother to look at the price as separate conversation for me...

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902890#Comment_118902890

€135 an hour for a sparky? Would want to be some level of service to justify that kinda wedge.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904668#Comment_118904668

These are for lifts 😁

Jinglejangle69

Insurance

paye

prsi

usc

van

diesel

van insurance

van tax

van maintenance

overalls

tools

accountants

training certs

IT such as laptop payroll etc

stationary

Basically two thirds isn’t a trade persons to keep.

You get paid 100 euro, after everything you get to keep 30 euro for yourself.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902890#Comment_118902890

i expect you very specialized to command this salary and be different than putting a few cables and switches together...

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904725#Comment_118904725

That's not a salary it's a bill out rate. My company charges 225 minimum for call outs of our trades people and 100 euro per hour after that. This is for 2 men.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905358#Comment_118905358

Is it house wiring like OP... i am sure lots of specialist trades command that kind rate...

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905406#Comment_118905406

No, but we do have electricians as part of our product and service. And we only work with other businesses, not residential properties.

Sounds high, but we have big costs to carry out every job, and overheads. Insurance bill for the year is 200k, we have 9 different policies, diesel bill is about the same. Electricity in our 2 premises is 60k for the year. We have 4 accounts staff to generate invoices and chase money, managers and operations staff to get the orders and manage installations and repairs. This electricians firm could have the same, OP said its a big company not just a man and a van.

List goes on with the expenses we have, that's why bill out rate and retained income aren't in the same ball park.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905457#Comment_118905457

So the two aren't comparable atall really....

AndrewJRenko

The important question here, which the OP appears to be avoiding, is whether he got a quote for the work up front.

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902769#Comment_118902769

Who paid the route learner for his time? Just curious.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906970#Comment_118906970

The company. I had 14 drivers trained over 3 routes each. A week per route

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906992#Comment_118906992

So ultimately the customer pays the route learner. The money has to come from somewhere, even if it isn’t specifically stated on an invoice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907844#Comment_118907844

Prices were set for 3 years. If we chose to train in people, that was our choice

Still stihl waters 3

Some people are seriously naive when it comes to the price of labour

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907855#Comment_118907855

That does not change the fact that customers always pay for staff training.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907855#Comment_118907855

So what's your point, did you get a price beforehand,if not why not? What you did in a previous job has no bearing on what your on about here, a multi million euro company can carry the cost of training a driver for 1 week, but would your company have paid for them to do the drivers licence without passing on the cost, I don't think so, and ye weren't really training them, just showing a route to someone that can already drive, grow up op you're being an idiot

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907855#Comment_118907855

Presumably so, the company paid for 14 drivers who were doing nothing. Where did the company get the money from to pay them?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905358#Comment_118905358

€225 call out charge?

That's outrageous. No way I would pay that for any tradesperson. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908077#Comment_118908077

That's your right, no one is being asked to pay more than they want to, that's the joy of a free market

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908077#Comment_118908077

It's not for homeowners. It's for other businesses. They pay it no problem, we get them out of big trouble.

I deal with trades all that time as part of my job (part of which includes procurement, approval and processing of of invoices, etc).

I have not found anyone charging that much for a call out. Sorry.