Painful things EV owners say...

Toyotafanboi

I've been holding off on one of these threads for ages, but after reading the below on another motoring page, I can wait no more.

Maybe EV's are the future, maybe they are a good investment. I'd be hoping for this thread not to become a debate on the success of EV's vs other things, but for it to become a "safe space" where ICE owners can be happy with their non changing over to EV's and some medium strength banter over how some ways of the EV life is simply not for them.

"Stolen from another group:

I am thinking of replacing my EV with a gas car and have some questions.

1. I have heard that gasoline-powered cars can not refuel at home while you sleep? How often do you have to refill elsewhere? Is this several times a year? Will there be a solution for refueling at home?

2. Which parts will I need service on and how often? The car salesman mentioned a box with gears in it. What is this and will I receive a warning with an indicator when I need to change gear?

3. Can I accelerate and brake with one pedal as I do today with my electric car?

4. Do I get fuel back when I slow down or drive downhill? I assume so, but need to ask to be sure.

5. The car I test drove seemed to have a delay from the time I pressed the accelerator pedal until it began to accelerate. Is that normal in gasoline-powered cars, or was mine malfunctioning?

6. We currently pay about $8 to fill up our electric car. I have heard that gasoline can cost up to 10 times as much so I reckon we will lose some money in the beginning. We drive about 20,000 miles a year. Let's hope more people will start using gas so prices go down.

7. Is it true that gas is flammable? Should I empty the tank and store the gas somewhere else while the car is in the garage?

8. Is there an automatic system to prevent gasoline from catching fire or exploding in an accident? What does this cost?

9. I understand that the main ingredient in gasoline is oil. Is it true that the extraction and refining of oil causes environmental problems as well as conflicts and major wars that over the last 100 years have cost millions of lives? Is there a solution to these problems?

10. I have heard that cars with internal combustion-based engines are being banned to enter more and more cities around the world, as it is claimed that they tend to harm the environment and health of their citizens?? Is that true??

I may have more questions later, but these are the most important ones to me at the moment. Thank you in advance for your reply."

bazz26

This thread won't end well.

PsychoPete

I'm just following the thread to see how the ev gang react

10-10-20

such daringness wow

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058240279/painful-things-ev-owners-say

Lithium mining has a serious carbon footprint and will create big problem when done

Toyotafanboi

Like, i live in north Wexford and I've to go to Clare this weekend, the furthest trip I've ever had to make in my Octavia TSi and tbh, i fully expect it to make it there and back on one tank of fuel, zero anxiety over it and when it does you wont find me in the chat thread saying, "you'll never believe it lads, Clare and back on a full tank".

Like a lot of the stuff the owners say, IMO are bonkers things to be coming out with, only serving to highlight how good EV motoring isn't or at best how much it's really only in it's absolute infancy.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118880682#Comment_118880682

i expect your car do that trip two times on one tank...

Killer K

Statement: 'The €5,000 SEAI grant is not a subsidy'.

Rationale: The Government are 'not claiming part of the tax'.

This daft idea that the SEAI grant isn't costing anyone anything is Celtic Tiger type economics at its finest. The sense of self entitlement is hilarious.

Not picking on any one EV forum poster as this is a common belief.

dmigsy

Weird thread. Smells of looking for things to be offended or defensive about. I'm not an EV owner either. "A safe space" 😂😂😂

magicbastarder

Weird thread. Smells of looking for things to be offended or defensive about.

smells of the last sting of a dying wasp to me!

alan partridge aha

Can get easily 1000km + per 55ltr tank on 2012 Octavia 1.6tdi. Mostly very short trips. Can push that to nearer 1200 if it was mostly longer trips.

Danno

I'll just leave this here.

Toyotafanboi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881172#Comment_118881172

No, see that's exactly the problem, that EV owners and enthusiasts always have to be so sore when something is ICE related or non EV circle jerking.

This is just a thread for ICE owners to talk about why they don't want an EV or why ICE is still for them based on what their own experiences.

magicbastarder

i drive an ICE car. i've never even sat in a 'full' EV.

anyway, it was intended in jest.

PsychoPete

I've driven a lot of EV's at this stage and they've never made me consider buying one

notAMember

I filled a rented Nissan qashqai with over 100 euro of petrol last week in a European city, 2:56 per litre and I felt like a complete idiot , standing there pumping money into a tank to set fire to it.

The hotel I stayed in had electric chargers, the offices I visited had electric chargers. I drove past field after field of wind turbines. I did max 80km per day, EV would have been a piece of piss had any been available at the car hire place.

driving a 2022 combustion car was like a weird expensive relic vibrating along the road.

Is this what you were looking for OP?

Toyotafanboi

Yeah, but i suppose you filled you're ICE in less than 5 minutes from a limitless choice of filling stations to a range your EV could probably only dream of.

The windfarm thing is basically virtue signalling unless you know that the hotel and office chargers were powered by renewable sources.

dmigsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881219#Comment_118881219

I don't see anyone sore but you but I'll leave you to it.

teediddlyeye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881202#Comment_118881202

So you zeroed your average mpg while doing a steady 55mph?

Still 3 or 4 times the running cost of an EV on night rate leccy. 😆

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881343#Comment_118881343

Not quite, filled up ten miles before the pic was taken. Always reset my MPG after filling up. The ten mile journey was good quality R class (formerly N hence the 100kmph limit) and speeds were held between 55mph and 60mph. But its a good return on MPG either way.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881343#Comment_118881343

Its only 3 or 4 times due to VAT, duty and carbon tax on petrol / diesel.

The oil, gas and coal used to charge an EV is taxed at 13.5% AFAIK.

The duty, VAT and carbon tax charged on oil and gas used to power an ICE directly is about €1 give or take.

If the playing field were level there would be little interest in EV's.

The EV gets mined out of the ground the same as an ICE, so similar environmental issues there as well.

Now I have no issue with switching everything to electric but as long as its coal, oil and gas filling the battery its something of a false dawn.

teediddlyeye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881379#Comment_118881379

It is impressive to be fair.

I'm not some sort of EV evangelist. I don't care much for arguments about range/suitably/home chargers/public chargers yada yada.

Just let the figures speak for themselves.

The fact is the cost for me to do 100km wouldn't even buy a single litre of diesel says a lot IMO.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881219#Comment_118881219

To be honest EV tech is now finally starting to come of age, where we are starting to see vehicles of various types with practical styling, usable range and not at high end luxury prices. Hopefully too this means we will start to see the end of the eejit EV owners, or at least they'll be diluted enough to ignore.

EV enthusiasts however seemed to believe that this point had been reached with the refreshed leaf and the first ionic. While neither of those were bad cars if you accepted them for what they were, i.e they came with serious limitations. This was always a struggle to get them to acknowledge these - as the EV seemed to be of an expression of themselves, much moreso than your ordinary motorist. Consequently the compromises were to be minimised, "sure you wouldn't be driving Dublin to Cork without stopping anyway" "I grab a coffee while I wait at the rapid, it's great" which was all complete nonsense.

Then you'd get onto the "savings". "It only cost me €2 to fill the car last night - might as well take that spin to the beach", completely neglecting to mention the fact that they had to buy a brand new or nearly new car to do this. They'd never mention that it cost them more sitting on the drive over night than it did for my 95 Punto to do the spin to said beach.

For most of those early-ish adopters it seemed that they belonged to an upper middle class elite, the kind of person that should be paying for things, not the ones hoovering up subsidies paid for by those poorer than them. It was a bit insulting to be paying for their toys whilst effectively being talked down to.

However, as I said above, the market is changing. The cars are good enough now to have a broader appeal so finally we will start to see less of the evangelising. I hope.

Danno

Spot on.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881426#Comment_118881426

Yes and no. Time has a value. If your battery is empty during the working day your savings on fuel is wiped out by the costing of your time waiting to charge. This is why range is very important to alot of people.

Flinty997

Range Anxiety what is that...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_truck#/media/File:Road_Train_Australia.jpg

stesaurus

Driving EVs of various forms for almost 7 years now. I can't stand a lot of the EV crowd. EV cars and coffee, shudder 😳.

Some of them are an odd bunch. They've spent a lot of money and only natural that they want to focus on the positive and ignore a lot.

But let's not kid ourselves here, there's a lot of numpty petrol heads who will only see the negatives too. The type that couldn't give a toss about the environment but start spouting shite about lithium/cobalt mining or rubber micro particles like they've just written their thesis. All the while typing away on their phones powered by unicorn farts.

They are not perfect. Battery tech has a huge way to go etc. But I love mine, I love not having to go anywhere near a garage, love the instant power, love the toys and preheating etc. I can put up with the range as it's rare I do large trips but that's not going to be for everyone.

TLDR there's a lot of weirdos on both sides of the fence.

teediddlyeye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881734#Comment_118881734

I do value my time alright, I generally spend less of it plugging in the car overnight than I would stoping for diesel.

As for having to charge during the day, I'd be inclined to look at it the other way round, I'm not spending nearly a full 6 hours wages just to save 40 min where it takes about 25 min of my labour to charge an EV.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881774#Comment_118881774

While a lot of EV drivers will reference the environmental benefits, the reality is that for the majority the incentive to change to an EV is purely financial both in terms of running costs and hoovering up free Govt subsidies. For many the environmental impacts are completely irrelevant and is pure virtue signalling. A bit like the original celebrity environmental virtue signallers such as Leonardo DiCaprio who used to prattle on about driving a Prius which he used to drive to the airport to hop on his private jet and fly to Cannes to spend time on his luxury yacht ..... However to be clear I'm not tarring all with the same brush here!!

Flinty997

Why does no else have a private jet or luxury yacht?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882403#Comment_118882403

Not the point. No issue with people, wealthy or otherwise, buying EVs and saving money and taking advantage of free subsidies. The problem starts when a proportion of these people start criticising others, who often are less fortunate than them, for not also adopting the EV miracle in order to save the planet, defeat Russia or for other laudable reasons. The reality is that for the majority of Irish motorists EVs are currently not attainable due to supply,or affordable as manufacturers are focussing their efforts on high end profitable models.

Flinty997

I'm not really seeing EV owners complaining about the poor to be honest.

Rich people being tone deaf isn't new.

oinkely

I'm not rich, and we have 2 evs in the house. Both bought second hand after doing costs of ownership calculations. Purely an economic decision as the running cost is about 10% of the equivalent ICE car. Both low range cars that do all of our daily driving but are never used in scenarios that the range is not sufficient for the trip so never charged on the public network. I do feel better about nipping to the shops etc when I go in one of the EVs rather than in the diesel that we also have. Might make no difference overall if the electricity to charge the battery came from a coal plant, but there's less crap in the air around my estate and village as a result.

EV is not for everyone; buy in cost of longer range models is way beyond the budget of lots of families out there and the short range affordable second hand ones won't suit everyone. As a second car / commuter car (if you can afford the luxury of such a thing) and you can have charging at home, again not available to everyone, then there is a big argument for an EV over the equivalent ICE. Cheaper to run, more reliable and when you get used to home charging going to a petrol station becomes a pain in the ass. I now resent when the diesel runs low and i have to waste my time going to fill it up. Luckily it is pretty much reserved for long trips, so doesn't need filling up more than every other month (and double bonus as it now costs upwards of €150 to fill its 80 litre tank).

I would be interested in replacing the diesel with an equivalent EV at some stage but that is a long way down the road. It's a crewcab van, loaded with bikes and windsurfing kit and used for towing the caravan when we go away. I would imagine that in time there will be something suitable, but battery tech will have to develop a bit further to allow around 500km between charges with that sort of load and towing capabilities. And it will have to fit in my budget, which will be a long while after the tech has caught up to my requirements for that particular vehicle.

I tell anyone who asks the pros and cons of the EVs that we own and of the segment in general, but appreciate that what works for me will not work for everyone. I get a bit frustrated when people dismiss EVs out of hand when i am pretty certain that even an older leaf would actually be more suitable for the person than the 1.6 diesel focus they chose instead, citing ridiculous arguments like 'i would forget to plug it in all the time' and 'what about if i want to drive to cork and back tomorrow?'. Jaysus, you can remember to plug your phone in to charge and when have you ever in your life driven to cork at the drop of a hat!!!?????

Anyway, horses for courses. Each to their own. Buy what you can afford and what makes sense for your needs and what makes you happy.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882568#Comment_118882568

EV is just subsidised to get people to switch.

If the fossil fuel used to run them was taxed the same as an ICE and the grants removed then there would be little interest.

I don't mind EV's but pretending they are saving the planet is another one.

If I buy one it's to save money, but that's harsh on people who can't afford to come near one.

BrianD3

The list of stupid questions in the OP sound made up - probably a troll or April Fool. ICEs have been around for long enough to be the default and anyone who is old enough to be driving or buying a car will almost certainly have some intrinsic knowledge of them.

Many people - particularly Americans - are stupid. But not THAT stupid.

The painful things that EV owners do mainly revolve around being financially illiterate (spending 50k on a new car to replace their banger and convincing themselves that they are saving money) or evangelical, virtue signalling nonsense.

Over reliance on driver aids is another one which isn't EV specific but given that a lot of EV owners in the US work in tech, is more likely for EVs.

"My self driving Tesla just drove under a semi trailer and decapitated me while I was on my laptop, what just happened, dude?"

kirving

There's a ton of negativity around PHEV's, often from EV drivers in my experience. But for a certain cohort of drivers, they make complete sense.

The charge capacity of my 2016 330e is just over half of what it was when it left the factory (not helping my opinion of a 2nd hand EV), but my city driving where petrol efficiency is terrible, is now most often in EV mode. Sure I need to carry batteries on my cross country commute, but air resistance and range are my enemies then, not a 10% weight penalty as that mostly just increases rolling resistance.

stesaurus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882961#Comment_118882961

That list is a joke, was that not really obvious?

It's essentially the equivalent of all the stupid silly questions EV drivers get asked, what happens when it rains etc. And there are people that ask these kind of questions unfortunately!

stesaurus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883006#Comment_118883006

When you say charge capacity, do you mean the battery has degraded by half or what you're seeing from available range is half? I'd really doubt degradation to that level but if so that's a warranty issue, no way should you have lost that much already. Pretty sure mine was 6 year warranty when I had one.

If it's range well the 330e never had much more than 15km really, the battery is tiny.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881774#Comment_118881774

One side eats breakfast rolls from Spar, the other eats falafel from Happypear

JimmyVik

I drive both an EV and a diesel.

The EV is great for short trips. But a royal pain for long trips.

And during the long spells at chargers other EV owners just wont stop wearing your ear off you about how great their car is, You would think it was a pet.

And if you ever said you had an issue at any time while driving an EV they will be out with a solution to you. And they will keep offering up alternatives and solutions til you are sick of them. They will never let go of the chance to tell other people why an EV would be better for them than an ICE.

Once I was at the charger in Finglas and it wouldnt start. I had 5% left in the car and was traveling to Drogheda so would not make it.

Another EV driver arrived and i told them it wasnt working. Did you ever ring eir about your broadband and they reel off all the same stupid steps youve already done a hundred times. Well it was like that.

Then he says that I should charge at the slow charger. I said I will when I can find one. The nearest one was broken anyway. He took out his phone and pointed out a few. All in use close by. Then he points to one near stephens green and says go there. I said it wont make it and im going in the opposite direction. Its only 5km he says. Its 5pm. It will take an hour there and an hour back. Anyway off he goes and says he is now stopping at Ashbourne to charge. I wouldnt make that either. So off he went. Then another person arrived. I swear i thought had got the same Eir support person again :) And another arrived and it was like 2 eir support people standing there.

In the end I phoned a colleague who lived nearby and he let me plug in at his house while we went to the pub for a few hours.

But having said that, we use the EV for all of our commuting under about 100km. They really are great. But they are not a replacement for the only car in the family for sure, unless you dont drive very far ever.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883186#Comment_118883186

Gross Battery Capacity: 7.6kWh

Net (Usable) Battery Capacity: 5.7kWh

0 - "100%" Charge Capacity: 3.3kWh. Measured by a Kasa Smart Plug (I'd screenshot but away from home), as the BMW app only shows to the nearest kWh. But it tallies up pretty closely too for the time to charge vs kW rating of the charger.

The car has about double what BMW will cover to (60k km), so not much I can do. Nevertheless it worries me big time about how a second hand EV will perform, so it would take an awful lot to persuade me anything other that new for my current weekly 200km one way commute, living in an apartment on one end and rented house on the other.

https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/topics/owners/service-workshop/warranties/bmw-phev-warranty-guidelines.html

BMW PHEV Battery Warranty.

The BMW PHEV Warranty includes a BMW PHEV Battery Warranty against failures of the high voltage battery as a result of manufacturing defects. In addition to the BMW PHEV Three Year Unlimited Mileage Warranty, the high voltage battery is warranted for up to six years from the date of first registration, or up to 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881774#Comment_118881774

While I agree there are a lot of weirdos on both sides of the divide, proportionally you'll have more that drive EVs - That is however just the nature of early adoption, it is only enthusiasts really that will make the first leap. Add in an unhealthy mix of an out of touch upper middle class and a smattering of greenwash and it's a recipe for insufferability.

As I said in my post above, that is changing though as more and more make the switch to electric. It's a good thing for EVs that the eejits will get lost in the noise.

It should be noted that EV driving is only as cheap as it is because it is not taxed to the same extent as ICE cars - and that is the only reason it is a current compelling choice. If fuel was taxed the same way it is in new york, a litre would retail at about €1.10 today. In such an environment, the selling points of EVs have a much tougher time.

The long term future is that road pricing for EVs is inevitable and it will settle at a rate of between 10c and 15c per km in today's money. The EV driver in 2030 will probably look back on today as the halcyon days.

mfceiling

I am an EV driver and I agree with a lot of the points made about them.

However it's not really true to say you can't do large distances in them. Last Thursday I did a 660km round trip from Dublin to Kerry and back. Stopped in Birdhill on the way down after 1hr 40 minutes driving. Plugged the car in and went inside to use the toilet and grab a coffee and a pastry. 30 minutes later and I was gone. Got to the house in Kerry and plugged it into the wall socket for 4 hours. Stopped in Birdhill on the way back (it's roughly halfway). 25 minutes after a toilet break and stretched my legs and I drove home.

Would much rather have done that journey in the EV than take my wife's diesel.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883393#Comment_118883393

Your post there literally illustrates that you can't do long distance in most of them. And that's fine, it's a limitation of the tech as it stands. The issue is with the advocates: who on the one hand say "oh how great it is to never have to waste time in a filling station" whilst almost in the same breath saying "oh it's no problem to wait at a rapid for half an hour to get a top up". Talk about having your bread buttered on both sides...

And this was all said with an air of talking down to those that were paying for the subsidies to allow this.

Like most things, the issue wasn't with the product, but the humans.

mfceiling

Oh yeah I know that it has its limitations on range but after approx 2 hrs driving I need a break. Doesn't annoy me in the slightest having to stop.

Summer time and I can do the one way journey without stopping (it's about 330 Kms one way) but again I give up before the car. It's a nicer drive in the EV than in the diesel.

whippet

I've done about 24,000km in the last 12 months on EV and used the public charging network twice for about 20 mins each time. All my charging is done on night rate at home.

As for the idiotic statements about spending €50k to save money is just nonsense .... the person spending €50k on a EV is going to be buying a new car anyway ... be it hybrid, ICE or EV.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881440#Comment_118881440

Upper middle class. Why thank you sir.

my €7,790 Leaf also thanks you 🤣

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883962#Comment_118883962

Indeed but you didnt get an nice free €5k SEAI grant to purchase your Leaf while the guy that can afford a €55k Audi Q4 Etron does. Q is that the most effective use of taxpayer money to encourage people to adopt EVs?

The reason why there currently are 7790 leafs is because the original owner got a 5k grant. My 152 that initially cost me 23k (after that 5k + scrappage from Nissan) is probably with their 2nd or 3rd owner and allowed me to move on from my €250 Saab back in the day. It would not have happened without those incentives.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884113#Comment_118884113

Nope. But I did sell it 2 years later for €11k.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884190#Comment_118884190

I think you'd have to question whether someone whose prepared to pay €55k for a luxury ev could not afford to do so without a Govt subsidy. Fully supportive of subsidising EVs but there should be a lower threshold or a reduced subsidy for cars above €40k. Does the VRT charge for more expensive EVs mean that people aren't buying them?

Also the grant is having little to no impact on the affordability of used EVs. It was different back in the day when Leafs were actually affordable for many more people.