DART underground - options

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121073227#Comment_121073227

You've obviously never travelled on a bus between Dublin and Belfast. Bus Eireann's national route network converges on Dublin Airport for a reason. And once Metro is built, the airport would be as convenient for the city centre as Heuston (if not more so). You only need to look at passenger numbers to the airport to understand how much sense this would make. It would also mean Cork-bound services and Belfast-bound services are served from the same station. Much of the land needed to create such a path would be greenfield.

bk

“You've obviously never travelled on a bus between Dublin and Belfast.”

LMAO, I literally took the new Dublin Express service to Belfast two weeks ago! Been meaning to write up a review of it over on the C&T forum. I even got pictures if you don’t believe 😂

So, of course it sounds good to say we should bring heavy rail to the airport if you know nothing about what it would take to achieve that.

But when you do know what is involved and just how horribly expensive it would be to do, it ends up looking like a terrible idea with little justification. So let’s look at what’s involved:

• Build a Hueston to Connolly tunnel at a cost of 5 to 10 billion.
  • BTW are we just reusing the DU tunnel, thus compromising the DART a service and repeating the mistakes of trying to mix both DART and intercity on the same lines. A terrible idea IMO
  • Or are we building a second whole tunnel separate to the DU at a massive cost?
• Quad track the northern line, a couple billion
• Spur to the airport, another billion.

There really isn’t anywhere near enough demand to justify all the above cost! Specially when people will be able to get to the airport by Metrolink anyway. Extend Metrolink to the Northern line and passengers from Belfast can use that.

Frankly the whole thing is a terrible idea. I at least some positive in the DU tunnel (Metro like DARTs only), I really don’t see this idea making any sense.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121074399#Comment_121074399

Which is exactly the type of thing we need and when I think about it, it is very similar to the DART+ project. Basically many different projects and jobs that over time will create an increasingly better service. Battery trains, electrification, remove junctions, etc.

A continuous, ongoing schedule of works, rather than the feast and famine approach to infrastructure development that we have.

Brian CivilEng

This exactly. Plus you get to build up the expertise in house, and keep it busy so there is no repeated demobilising and remobilising. No procurecurement of consultants, fee proposals, disagreements on services provided....

OK maybe I'll stop now before I get myself fired.

A1ACo

I’m being a little facetious here but, with the timelines of tunnel planning and construction so long, the argument could be made relatively plausibly, in a railway order application (and assorted environmental docs) for project splitting, and initially only applying for the line to be made to go as far as Christchurch (from Heuston). 

This is as nearly all of the options have always seemed to agree to go to Christchurch, but any such application at least also acknowledging that the line may… later continue east, but stating (likely honestly!) that its just not clear if via St. Stephen’s Green (most likely), or north/ south of it alignment, and then note probably… to Pearse. 

Though it could also reasonably be argued that the future line may well possibly stop completely at Pearse. This is noting that one of the 2021 Jacobs’ report short-listed options (R16, page 28) showed termination at Pearse, and interestingly also in the 2015 NTA’s revised proposals (Lower cost re-design of DART Underground project proposed - National Transport), 2 of the 3 options were for termination at Pearse. 

It could again be argued in any application, that the line could be continued on from there, but that it was also undecided. 

But, by the time it came to have to make a decision on whether to continue the line, or not, years would have passed allowing for that decision to be made, and more detailed applications for whatever ‘next leg’ to be made. 

Also, so as not to loose out on the re-branding stakes – I’m going to call this latest approach the U-DART! 

bk

Ironically the above linked presentation has dropping Christchurch as one of the money saving options.

The DU Options report in 2021 short listed and looked at this terminate at Pearse option and basically came to the conclusion that it was a poor idea.

Basically it cost almsot the same as the Hueston - Christchurch - Tara - Docklands option (2.3b for Pearse optin, 2.4b for the Tara - Docklands option) while being worse in every other way and worst of all had a dreadful Benefit to Cost Ratio.

I suppose one benefit would be it would stop people trying to force intercity trains into the DART Tunnel!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067516#Comment_121067516

The sole reason that there is no PPT service at weekends is the shortage of train drivers. This is currently being addressed in the training programme, but there is still a backlog caused by the long internal dispute and the suspension of in-cab training during Covid. Hence they have been playing catch-up ever since and are now starting to increase the numbers.

They are also increasing the throughout of trainees as I understand it from this year so that will help.

Remember though that it takes over a year to train a new driver, so expecting rapid change isn’t realistic. Incremental service increases are happening as new drivers become available across the network.

Clearly a further increase in training throughput will be needed after DART+ gets the railway order.

I think that conflating this specific issue with the delays in the planning process really is a red herring.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083565#Comment_121083565

No. It is part and parcel of how 'we' do public transport and making excuses for it won't do.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083641#Comment_121083641

No it’s not an excuse. It’s a fact.

You can’t just magic train drivers out of thin air.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083687#Comment_121083687

Between bus and trains, I feel like there's been a shortage for years now as an excuse. I don't doubt this, but when is this going to get better? When are we gonna start seeing benefits of their recruitment drives?

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083948#Comment_121083948

When new drivers in is greater then old drivers out to be blunt.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083959#Comment_121083959

Yeah I know. Again though, this has been said for 2years now. As a legitimate reason, it starts to sound like a broken record of an excuse.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083972#Comment_121083972

It takes over a year to fully train a new train driver - it’s not a job that people can walk into, or indeed one which you can address shortfalls quickly, due to the rigorous training requirements.

Between Covid (due to social distancing, no in-cab training could happen), and a lengthy dispute between the unions and the previous CEO there was nearly a two year period of no new drivers being passed out. Consequently they’ve been playing catch-up on that for some time now.

Since training resumed post-Covid, they have been pretty much just filling in the vacancies that arose over the last number of years either through drivers retiring or some of the external recruits leaving when they found the job wasn’t for them.

But I believe that they are now finally starting to expand the numbers of drivers - and we should see some improved schedules from the December timetable change and then incremental increases during 2024 as more drivers pass out.

As I said above, the numbers that can go through the training school are I understand being expanded as well.

The situation at the railway company is a completely different situation to the bus companies - there are no shortage of applicants. It’s just a long process to train a new driver.

To be fair there have been service improvements in the last twelve months - extra services to/from Westport, the evening service to/from Gorey, extra services during the day between Heuston and Newbridge.

They are adding the services as and when they have drivers available to drive them.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083687#Comment_121083687

It is a systemic failure. 'Shortage of drivers' has been the reason given for patchy services on the PPT since 2016. You mention an increase in the number of drivers, which is to be welcomed, but unless a turn up and go service can be sweated out of the railway assets then getting people out of their cars isn't going to happen at a large enough volume. And that's the point. CIE isn't an outdoor relief scheme for its employees, nor is it a giant photo op for government greenwashing.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084510#Comment_121084510

Agree, shortage of drivers is only really an acceptable reason for as long as it takes to recruit new drivers. Once that time has elapsed, it's actually not a labour shortage issue.

Sam Russell

Even shortage of drivers ceases to be an excuse when a rearrangement of services could provide extra services.

Why do commuter trains run south of GCD to Bray when there is a 10 min Dart service? Removing those services would allow the Dart service between Bray and GCD to be more streamlined and probably quicker.

I am sure that there are many areas where schedules could be streamlined, but I am not familiar with most of the network.

thomasj

I don't know if it's changed since Broombridge LUAS opened but for many years the morning service from Maynooth to Bray was the busiest service on the line.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121088524#Comment_121088524

No, cancelling the commuter trains south of GCD wouldn’t make any difference to the speeds - they slot in between the 10-minute DARTs which operate with the same journey time as any other time of the day.

They add valuable extra capacity along the line.

spillit67

I had a look at Jacobs report and have to say I really liked the idea of Heuston-Christchurch-St Patrick’s Cathedral-Charlemount-Grand Canal Dock-Docklands alignment (S01 R02).

Whilst Pearse is a more natural location, GCD is not bad. It would provide a lot of utility to the city in terms of linking the West of the city to core business areas and amenities such as as the Aviva and Grand Canal Theatre. And while you lose out on the direct Trinity connection that you get at Pearse, people can connect with the Green Line or Metro at Charlemount to get down to that part of the city core.

The south west of the city both lacks a line within the core and closer to the canal that links to the centre and the east. This arguably would tick off both boxes.

For all the talk on if Dublin can handle this line, I think there is a real failure of imagination. The population within the canals is about to pop by 20% in the next 2-3 years. The shear amount of development makes this inevitable.

I could live with either a heavy rail Canal corridor with a LUAS in the south inner core connecting Dame Street-Dublin Castle-Christchurch or the more limited DART Underground (Heuston-Christchurch-Tara-Docklands) and a LUAS along the canal.

My fear with the cheaper option is that it doesn’t sell. The problem with DU has always been that Irish Rail didn’t know how to sell it to the public. My fear with the other alignment is the “cost”- as for whatever reason despite the fact that we are awash with money that the country has no confidence in itself to deliver more complex projects anymore.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358149#Comment_121358149

I love more than anyone to take out the crayons, but I'm concerned it's all utterly pointless without a proper plan for the city in place.

Irish Rail are planning to develop the lands around Heuston, the plans for Spencer Dock Dart impede Dart Underground, Clontarf Gold Club is potentially up for sale and redevelopment, as is Cathal Da Brugha in Rathmines and the North Docklands near the Port. Additionally, the development at Glass Bottle Site in Ringsend are already underway.

How many other key sites in the city might be lost to future transport development without a definitive plan in place for Dart Underground and future Metro lines. The cost of going underground is prohibitively expensive for most areas. It we lose key sites around the city, we'll never develop a proper network.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358149#Comment_121358149

The problem with DU is that the global financial crisis happened and the public finances fell through the floor. If its ever built it can still use the Spencer Dock Station it just means relocating the passenger terminal back to the old Docklands station for construction. Or the new station could use the old Docklands site and put in walking connections to Spencer Dock, there's lots of options.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121367025#Comment_121367025

Omg can we not start this again. Unless DU terminates at Spencer Dock or continues underground to somewhere like Clontarf golf course, the old plans at that stations are impossible.

The idea that they would dig up the new Dart terminus (for two new Dart lines) to install an underground station is completely unrealistic and simply won't happen.

spillit67

To continue the discussion on DART Underground / Tunnel, would it make sense for it to terminate at the East Wall Rail yards?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122073084#Comment_122073084

The first thing to figure out is what would be the main purpose of such a tunnel - originally it was meant to create 2 distinct Dart Lines at standard gauge (1. Dart SW to Dart Northern and 2. Dart West to Dart Southern, with Pearse as a major interchange).

Since those plans were developed, the PPT has been opened allowing Dart SW to reach the city centre. Additionally, Metro at Glasnevin will provide a direct interchange with Dart SW and Dart West, with additional optionality to continue to Connolly / Grand Canal Dock. These are substantial changes versus when DU was designed.

Would a revised tunnel plan be 1600 gauge (Irish Rail/Dart trains) or standard gauge (Metro)? A new tunnel build to Metro standard would have a far higher CBA due to higher capacity of a Metro. If it was built to 1600 gauge, electrified Belfast-Cork trains would use it, but this would reduce capacity of the line and produce a far lower CBA.

Zebra3

It’s looking more and more like another metro line will do the job, otherwise the DART SW line from “around Heuston” to the city centre will go to waste.

KrisW1001

PPT is a very low capacity link with speed restrictions. It was considered to be the "not good enough" option back when both DART Underground and Metro North were being planned. DART via PPT means using Heuston West, which looks like being a surprisingly inconvenient connection for mainline passengers arriving into Heuston, despite the relatively short point-to-point distance.

DART+ can function via PPT, but DU was to address the city-rail connection to the south side of the city. DU plus PPT would provide a full loop of the city allowing much greater interconnection between Metro services (<15 km from city centre) and DART (<40 km from centre).

I think DU needs to be kept in the plans, but I don't think it should be a priority. A second Metro line and and adding more loops, links and spurs to Luas to create new tram services would be of more benefit to the city. Particularly, if Luas could be diversified into a network of routings inside the city core, you could stop most bus routes needing to enter this part of the city at all, which would give huge improvements in bus punctuality.

spillit67

I don’t see why DART SW is negated by another link. It still would service the North Docks and link with Cross Guns.

The NTA’s study on just 1% more from DART Underground now that DART+ was on the table was always nonsense and part of them getting to the answer they wanted.

The various options presented in the Jacobs reports would be immensely popular from day one.

Beta Ray Bill

@bk

There really isn’t anywhere near enough demand to justify all the above cost! Specially when people will be able to get to the airport by Metrolink anyway. Extend Metrolink to the Northern line and passengers from Belfast can use that.

It depends on how you gauge demand. Right now everyone wants to live in the greater Dublin Area because that's where all the jobs are and there is no effective way to travel more than 40km away into the City centre in less than 30 mins. (Enterprise comes close, but it doesn't run often enough). In fact given the traffic restrictions and the fact that Dublin is the 2nd worst congested city in the world, people have no option but to pay mad money for a place in Dublin.

Services to Heuston are decent, but Heuston is to far away from the City Centre, (about 2.5KM) and even further away from the business area of the city (3.5km)

I live on the DART line, I specifically got a place there because I want to be able to get into Dublin city in less than 30 mins.

If I could have that option (In Dublin City Centre in 30 mins) living in a place like Naas, Enfield, Trim or Navan for example, I'd move there, bigger house, cheaper, Big front and back garden, less traffic. etc

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077603#Comment_122077603

Your vision is sort of a scary one from an urban planning and ecological perspective.

Basically rather then densifying Dublin City, we create massive suburban sprawl of one off houses all across the GDA!

There is something I suspected and worried about some folks suggestions of fast trains into the city and now you have gone and literally confirmed it. It isn't that you want to build tall apartment buildings next to the train station in Drogheda, Naas, etc. No, instead you want to a big house, with a big garden and to drive to the station!

Your vision is one of Amercian style surburbanism, turning the whole GDA into a sea of one off houses, where everyone drives, if we are lucky some will drive to a train station, most probably won't!

And you want us who do decide to live in the city, to subsidise your lifestyle and your big cheap house to the tunes of billions!!

Non of this would be good for the environment or good urban planning.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077693#Comment_122077693

You're correct, however Ireland is at risk of becoming a City State, in fact it's at risk of becoming a South Dublin City state.

HSR to satellite cities, works well at dispersing overcrowded population centres, which Dublin is. The bureaucracy and lack of planning up til now means that having a densely populated city isn't workable because the supporting infra is lacking. Our position on the planet also means High Rise apartments are not possible in the way they are in other cities as the bottom floor would never get sun light.

That being said HSR eventually becomes a victim of its own success. (Enough people move and eventually the jobs move too, then no one really uses HSR to the extent it was once used). I actually think this would help the nation A LOT. Like at the moment, everything has to be in Dublin, there is no 2nd city (Sorry Cork).

There's nothing wrong with wanting to have a bigger house with a front and back garden in a country with a population density as low as Irelands. Apartment living in Ireland is the worst, I've done it, never again. It will never change. It's completely unsuitable in Ireland, especially if you have kids.

Edit: when I say big house I mean a semi d with 4 bedrooms. Enough to comfortably raise 3 kids.