Sibling that married in 1880??

Hannaho

Hi! I'm having difficulty checking if a great grand aunt and uncle who married were siblings or half siblings. It seems incredulous!!! The names were Michael J. Farrell and Katherine Agnes Farrell - they married on 23rd Feb 1880 in Kilkerrin, Tuam. They emigrated to the US. The name put down for both of their father's was Patrick Farrell, Miller. Surely this could not be right?? I cannot seem to find the birth details for either Katherine Agnes Farrell (1860). or Michael J. Farrell (1860) to see who their mother was. Their father Patrick married in 1848- Coolreagh, Tuam. His wife was either Celia McGrath or Sarah Rafferty? I have searched for the birth details of Katherine Agnes Farrell and Michael J Farrell on irishgenealogy.ie, but nothing comes up.

Hermy

Civil birth registration began in Ireland in 1864 so there won't be birth records for either of them.

You could try looking for death records for them in the USA which may give their parents names.

Hannaho

Thanks, Hermy. I will try that. It seems that they were siblings - but I just wanted to confirm - only one family of millers in Tuam at the time. A bit of a shock!

Hermy

What makes you think that they were siblings (aside from the civil marriage record)?

Have you baptismal records for each of them?

Hannaho

Hi! Hermy, no I don't have the Baptismal Certificates, but I am going to try and get them. It seems from my research that there was only one family of Millers in Tuam - they owned Coolrea Mill and then bought the old mill in Tuam, which is now a museum. Patrick Farrell was the son of the original owner of that mill. His children appear to be Katherine Agnes Farrell born in 1860 and MIchael J Farrell (not completely sure of date - think 1858). Their mother appears to be Ceclia McGrath. My grandparents were first cousins - my grandmother was a niece of Michael J. Farrell and Katherine Agnes Farrell. I presume my grandparents must have had a Papal dispensation to marry as first cousins, but I have not located this.

Hermy

Siblings marrying is so unlikely that I would be doing everything I can to disprove that claim.

Firstly, mistakes do happen so I'd be wondering if the fathers name on the civil marriage record is correct for both parties.

A quick search of the parish records for the area confirms that Patrick and Cecilia had a son Michael baptised in 1854 and a daughter Catherine baptised in 1856.

Given the exact age is given for both of them on the marriage record this introduces an inconsistency to the matter.

Hannaho

Hi! Hermy, thanks for your help with this. Apologies, but I don't get completely what you are saying. The fact that the ages for both of them are the same on the marriage record - does that mean anything. For instance, my aunt's - same family - birth date has been down on various official documents as 1931 and then1933 - so back then is it not possible to have just been inaccurate on the marriage cert with their ages? Re their father Patrick - there was no other Patrick, owner of Coolrea Mill, Tuam, at the time, as far as I can see. I think it's quite shocking if it's true, but just wondered why you would think it's so important to disprove it, as families have skeletons, perhaps more in those days, when everything wasn't so official?

pinkypinky

Did these people have children? If siblings actually did marry, then it will show in their descendants DNA, even after several generations.

It's much more likely that there was another Patrick Farrell and that you just haven't found the evidence of it yet. They could have been first cousins both named after a common grandfather.

Hannaho

Hi! Pinkypinky, yes they had lots of children - well 8 children. My son got the DNA done, but not me - I know that we're absolutely related to Michael Farrell and Katherine Agnes Farrell. They came up as cousins in my son's DNA match. My son has linked his tree with the great grandson of Michael and Katherine Farrell. My DNA kit will be arriving in a couple of days. Can you let me know how it would show in Michael and Katherine Farrell's DNA several generation after - I don't know what to look for - I can access the DNA information for my son with him through his site?

Hermy

Although experience has taught me never to rule anything out, nevertheless siblings marrying is so rare even in antiquity that I would assume that they are not siblings.

And it's not true to say everything wasn't so official in those days as this marriage took place in a Catholic Church and has been recorded civilly.

That alone would led me to conclude that the bride and groom are not siblings.

As to their ages Michael is 22 and Katherine is 20 according to the marriage record meaning that Katherine is a minor which Patrick and Cecelia's daughter Catherine isn't as she was baptised in 1856.

This also points to them not being siblings.

55Gem

It's illegal in Church and Civil law for siblings to marry.

The couple married in the parish of Killereran usually the brides parish and unfortunately the 1880 marriages are missing. She appears to have been living in Toher Beg or Toher More at the time but there are no Farrells there in either census.

His address at the time of marriage seems to be Maw which is a bit odd as there are no buildings in Maw, it doesn't even appear in either census. It's in Omey RC parish, Sillerna Civil Parish. It difficult to read I could have the name incorrect.

I have millers in my tree and they don't always call themselves millers, often they are down as farmers. A farmer could have a mill on his land so you can't assume there was only one miller in the area. Also jobs like miller and carpenter etc often run in families, uncles, cousins etc set up in the same business down through the generations.

Hannaho

Thanks, Hermy and 55Gem, that's really helpful! Re Toher - I came across Farrell's living in Toher, I think it was late 1800s. I'm glad they might not be siblings. I'll explore the Baptism records more - I also find them hard to read, even with a magnifier!

55Gem

Looking at the civil cert again I may have the church incorrect.

8036632.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

It could be Kilkerrin

Kilkerrin and Clonberne, Tuam - Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI

pinkypinky

You would need to see the DNA results of the alleged sibling couple's children, not your branch.

Here's an article (it's a little old but the science is sound). https://blog.kittycooper.com/2018/07/when-the-dna-says-your-parents-are-related/

pinkypinky

The 1880 parish records don't look complete on the NLI site - there's only a couple of pages. This is a pity because it would interesting to see if there was a dispensation - I'd expect them to be related but it's really unlikely to be a sibling relationship. Society wouldn't have allowed it. They'd need to have eloped and then there would have been the possibility to lie about their connection.

55Gem

I'm guessing Coolrea and Coolrevagh are the same place.

A Sarah Farrell died there in 1882 wife of Patrick, Landholder

4831962.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

A Michael Farrell has land and the corn mill in Coolrevagh in Griffith's Valuation print date 1855

Coolrevagh is right next to Toher Beg where Bridget Farrell was born to Patrick Farrell and Sarah Rafferty in 1868

2266718.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

Not sure where I'm going with this.....

Martin Farrell is living in Coolrevagh in 1911

National Archives: Census of Ireland 1911

but on his death record in 1902 and his daughter Bridget's birth the address is Toher

4602002.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

so I think this is Patrick Farrell's death in 1889

4756521a.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

Hannaho

Hi! 55Gen, thanks for all the info. Yes, Patrick Farrell died in 1889 - but I'm really confused now - was there two Patrick Farrell's - or did he have two wives - some of his children were born, as discussed above and per Hermy's post to him and Ceclia McGrath, and then to Patrick Farrell and Sarah Rafferty?? As far as I can see from death records, Ceclia died in 1892 - but Patrick Farrell's oldest children were born to her, and to Sarah Raftery. When I have linked in with other family trees from US with Farrell Family, they refer to half-brothers in that generation.

55Gem

Don't trust other people's trees.

There clearly was a Patrick Farrell married to a Sarah Raftery having children in Toher/Coolrea and he does appear to be a miller/farmer.

Where was Patrick Farrell and Ceclia McGrath having children?

pinkypinky

Do your own research and don't rely on other people's trees.

Have you found a death for a Cecilia/Celia Farrell that confirms she was Patrick's wife and a subsequent marriage for Patrick to Sarah which shows him to be a widower?

55Gem

Found the obit of Ellen Farrell 1909

Her marriage 1870 to Francis Burke, she was 20 so born about 1850

8176839.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

daughter of the late Patrick Farrell and Sarah Farrell Toher

sister of Michael Farrell Bridge Mills Tuam

Dan Farrell Moyne Mills Ballyglunin?

Mrs John Cunningham Toher

Mrs Kyne Kilkeel

Aunt of John Farrell Abbey Mill

Patrick Farrell Tuam Saw Mills

Edward Farrell Commercial Traveller

James Farrell Castle Mills Ballinasloe

Michael Farrell jun Bridge Mills Tuam

and several other nieces and nephews

Deceased also left several children in the USA and one son at home.

So if Patrick and Cecilia were having children in the mid 1850s, Patrick and Sarah were having children at the same time and earlier so there are two Patricks.

edit

Just fixing the spelling of Kilkeel

Hermy

Great work Gem!!

pinkypinky

Brilliant find.

55Gem

Kilkeel is bugging me, I've found it's in the area of Headford and Galway County Council mention it in their biodiversity plan in relation to Lough Corrib, with a sign erected near the lakeshore in Kilkeel.

Hannaho

Thanks, 55Gem. That is a brilliant find! I managed to discover that there were two Patrick Farrell's, through a distant relation who is research the Farrells (Millers) in Tuam, Toher and Coolrevagh. I think the two Patrick Farrell's were first cousins - that is Patrick Farell married to Ceclia McGrath and Patrick Farrell married to Sarah Raftery. My mind is addled trying to figure out which Farrell belongs to which set of parents/siblings. Re Kilkeel - in the 1901 census - the Kynes (Coynes) are down as loving in Kilkeel, Kilheaney - which I thought was part of Kilkerrin?

55Gem

I think Kilkeel and Keekill are the same area not too far from Headford.

The newspapers have a James Kyne Kilkeel Headford, he died 1960 and looks like his son also James inherited and died 1999.

4098905.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

I think this is the family in 1901

National Archives: Census of Ireland 1911

and James birth in 1886, mother Margaret Farrell

1953126.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877695#Comment_118877695

I was looking at this too, I think you are right. I might ask a couple of people from up that way if they can clarify. Its an odd one.

55Gem

Ellen Farrell Burke is a daughter of Sarah and aunt of Michael Farrell jnr Bridge Mills

This would indicate his father is Michael and there is a death of a Margaret Farrell 1940 Bridge Mills wife of the late Michael, Michael jnr died in 1931 but wasn't married so looks like his parents are Margaret and Michael.

This looks like their marriage

8124934.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie) Michael Farrell Toher, Miller son of Patrick Farrell Miller.

So the Michael Farrell that married Katherine Agnes can't be a son of Sarah so I'd be inclined to think he's Celia's son and Katherine Agnes is Sarah's daughter.

Hannaho

Thanks, Blaris and 55Gem. The Farrell's are complex - there are so many of them also, and they lived close together, and all seem to be millers of one sort or another. That's what I've come to too, that Michael Farrell that married Katherine Anges was Ceclia's son - but Michael and Agnes were cousins of some sort?

Re James Kyne who died in 1960, Blaris, how do you know that his son James Kyne died in 1999. From the 1961 Obituary of Delia Coyne, it mentions Fr. James Coyne, her nephew, who was a priest in Sacramento - I presume this is James Snr's son. Where did you locate the record of his death?

55Gem

Connaght Tribune June 1960

James Kyne, Kilkeel Headford is to stand as an Independent Candidate in the forthcoming local elections. He is a former son of James Kyne and a brother of the Rev. F. John G. Kyne Sacramento....................Mr Kyne was bereaved recently by the death of his father James Kyne.

James Kyne death 1960 informant James, doesn't give relationship

4098905.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

City Tribune April 1999 has an Acknowledgement from the Kyne family on the recent death of James Kyne Kilkeel Headford

Hannaho

Thanks to all of you. Through the information about James Kyne, died 1960, and through the obituary of Delia Burke, I was able to locate the Rev J. Coyne, Sacramento, died in 2001, who turned out to be a talented sculptor, who had studies under John Shortall, an apparently famous Sculptor in Galway. He continued on his sculpture and there are photos of some of his sculptures in the Sacramento Diocesan Archives. My mother would have been his first cousin, but never mentioned him. I'm still looking for his other siblings, but will work my way through it. I have some other questions, which I will post in another discussion.

barbon

Hi Hannaho,

I am related to that family also. Michael J. Farrell's father was Patrick Farrell and his mother was Cecily McGrath and Katherine Agnes Farrell's father was also Patrick Farrell (but not the same one!) and her mother was Sarah Raftery.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058239157/sibling-that-married-in-1880