Housing Crisis - Your Take

What is your idea to solve the housing crisis without driving up the costs beyond the current level which is already out of the reach of many working people?

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For example David McWilliams suggests that as we can borrow money from Europe cheaply that we (Ireland) should borrow what we need and build a load of houses basically overnight.

I can't see how this would work as there is already a skills shortage in the construction industry so the costs would have to increase dramatically.

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It is hard to know how many vacant properties (not holiday homes) there are in Ireland that are of a good enough standard for people to live in without substantial refurbishment required.

manonboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238629/housing-crisis-your-take

I think one useful strategy would be to offer tax incentives to newly qualified or graduated entrants to the market so that we encourage a higher uptake of employment into the sector. A skills shortage needs to solved long term and that often means directing education or career goals into that market. Subsidizing training courses with lucrative outcomes. The more employment we push into that sector, the more competition. Of course, this only solves the man power issue, not the regulation or material costs or planning costs.

Wanderer78

mcwilliams is right in many ways, the only way out of this is public borrowing, but to make sure this money is used in actual building, not using it to push up prices further, rates are at record lows, central banks are currently stuck in a low rate environment, with little abilities to raise rates, so crack on with the borrowing....

we will also need private sector developers/builders on board, as we ll need them to actually do the building, as the state no longer has the abilities to build, but strict conditions would need to be agreed, such as no excess profits, they clearly need to profit from building, but.....

protective measures will need to be implemented, in order to protect these developers from unpredictable outcomes such as inflation, they must be protected from going bust....

it makes sense to collectively accumulate resources including finances, to secure materials supplies, its mutually beneficial that building is done, and as many businesses survive doing so....

oh and mcwilliams is dead right on our whole approach to building, ours is diabolical, we should be doing what other countries do in regards training, create proper respected training faculties and pay participants appropriately

....will any of this be done, probably not.....

iColdFusion

There is a total disconnect between the government shouting about how they are trying to solve the housing crises and the total lethargy of the councils and planning departments. You'll see it in the planning sections of any paper, all the major housing projects keep getting bounced back for further information, shoved off to ABP, etc - there is a complete failure to process planning in a timely and fair manner that kills a lot of housing projects and all these costs get passed onto the final buyer.

Councils generally are consistently failing in their responsibilities to service new large housing developments with adequate roads, public transport, schools, parks etc Same with new large office projects, they give the planning and then never think about where all those workers are going to live.

Planning boundary zones are totally in the control of the local councils, they could pick the outside boundary of any major commuter town, talk to the owner of the farmland, offer them 80k per acre for 20 acres, rezone that whole land to residential, do a part 8 planning for as many serviced sites as you can fit, council hires a civils contractor to do roads, lighting & utilities, councils places ad in local paper offering to sell sites to first time buyers who meet certain criteria of income and commuting distances at an affordable price of whatever it takes the council to break even, say €40k depending on site size, people are allocated sites from the road entrance, anyone not building on the site within 3 years has to hand it back to the council so you don't end up with a ghost estate. You are basically facilitating working families to build their own home at an affordable cost which is where government policy should be focused instead of giving new houses to people who could never have afforded one.

Basically I think the various government departments, councils, OPW, etc could be doing MUCH more and you can clearly see it in what the likes of Tuath, Respond etc are doing with government money

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827520#Comment_118827520

the whole public housing system has been undermined for decades now to the point it no longer is capable of doing its job, this may never change...

Diemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827418#Comment_118827418

Or we could change Irish mammy's attitude that little Johnny must go to college and anything else is beneath them.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827549#Comment_118827549

the issues of our training and educational system are far more complicated than the opinions of some mammy and daddys, the whole system is academically biased!

maestroamado

The first thing needs doing is political will to resolve housing... its not there. I know i guy under 30 carpentry contractor... couple of months ago got maintenance job with HSE... fixing locks etc... waste of talent... i know of at least 10 build trade people who work with HSE mostly porters i think as i never asked...

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827547#Comment_118827547

I don't buy into this argument, we have loads of architects, engineers and quantity surveyors on the government payroll all around the country and a government promising a near blank cheque for new housing, the problem is the public sector staff just want to manage the work of private sector consultants instead of doing a hard days work.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827678#Comment_118827678

theres no question there is complete an utter waste of resources going on in the public domain, but we truly need to get over this idea that the private sector is far more superior and efficient, theres plenty of evidence to support this isnt true, both sectors experience these issues, in fact, many private sectors are worse than public sectors. the undermining our our public sector has been a fundamental part of modern political and economic ideologies, most developed counties are experiencing the same problem, we need to urgently change this, or these issues are simply just going to deteriorate further, we have empowered particular sectors, particularly the fire sectors during this period, and it has failed. its time for us to be adults and admit these failures!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827678#Comment_118827678

Public sector implements govt policy. The tail does not wag the dog.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827772#Comment_118827772

Has anyone any idea what Government policy is regarding housing...

Flinty997

There is what they say and what they actually do.

rob316

Watch this refugee crisis and see all the solutions that will be put into action that weren't possible before. If the will is there to solve it, it can be done. The government has fueled the crisis by bringing in demand measures like HTB and shared equity. You have to address supply, its the most basic principle supply and demand. We have a constrained supply and the government just keep creating a bigger buying pool with free money, pushing up prices further.

For one there should be a massive crackdown on vacant property, not a measily charge. Something that will have the landlord running to the auctioneer.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827970#Comment_118827970

again, theres nothing basic about the so called laws of economics, yes we have been suffering from a serious supply problem, but this was brought to our attention during the previous crash, but our political and state bodies have been severally disempowered to do anything about this, at nearly all stages, including financially. theres very little free money as such in circulation, all money begins its life as debt, only we have confined debt forgiveness towards more wealthier entities in society, large corporations etc, and enforced debt repayments else where, in particular in the public domain.....

Viscount Aggro

News article in todays Independent.ie

‘The demand for apartments is only from one customer – that’s institutions. There’s no private demand out there, there’s no State demand out there’

HerrKapitan

All they have to do is unsubscribe from the WEF reset plan. That would be the start we would need.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828046#Comment_118828046

...and potential collapse our economy....

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827970#Comment_118827970

If a property is not viable to sell or rent. A charge will do nothing to fix whatever is causing that.

This problem started with social and affordable housing then spread to the rest of the market from there.

Its someone or institutions with deep pockets keeping properties vacant and its mainly at the top end of the market. If you free up these apartments, they aren't affordable for anyone to buy anyway. The vacant stuff at the low end is often already in local authority ownership. They are unlikely to fine themselves for that.

Ham_Sandwich

Sinn Fein will look after us we just need to vote them in.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828270#Comment_118828270

they ll try to change things, but they ll struggle, and may only be able to change little during their term, these issues will absolutely not be resolved in a single term, and they may only get a single term, so........

Mad_maxx

Stop demonising landlords, entice more in ,make it easier to evict rogue tension

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828270#Comment_118828270

Sinn Fein are in a funny old predicament.

If they get into government they are ruined.

They cannot fix anything, especially they way they have said they will go about it.

In fact if they follow their own stated strategy they will cause untold damage to an already fragile system.

They obviously know this but cannot publicly state it. So now they are sitting in their offices, sucking off the government tit and wondering how on earth are they going get out of actually having to govern after the next election.

So with the other parties being so bad. They got out of it the last time by pretending they made a mistake with their vote management. They cant pull that one again.

They are a party that will thrive in opposition, but hand them the reigns and we are all fcuked - including them.

Government in Ireland is actually a hot potato right now. I dont think anyone wants it really.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828335#Comment_118828335

both entities are being undermined, in order to implement policies for eviction, alternative accommodations would also need to be implemented, neither are currently possible......

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828363#Comment_118828363

You act the maggot, you don't deserve accomodation

BailMeOut

Whenever there is a huge demand for any service or product the 'market' always reacts and fills the gap. Lots of people want homes and there is no supply so that's a gap that you would think would naturally be filled.

We need to ask why this is not happening and fix that but the answer is probably very complex. It has nothing to do with money as there is plenty of this (to develop and build) so has to do with BS, planning, margins, regulations, skills, taxes, etc... i.e. it's obviously not an attractive prospect building in this country.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828397#Comment_118828397

I propose the solution that you build a huge estate (lets call it happyville) as cheap as you can somewhere far away from the services that the normal law abiding population need more. Then that new estate is where anyone who gets evicted form a home anywhere else in the country gets housed. They dont get offered a choice of anywhere else that they have been housed.

Also a register of anti-social people who have been evicted so no other landlord makes the mistake of renting to them again.

so if if falls on the council to house you because noone else will touch you, you get housed in happyville.

Let them have neighbors like themselves and see how they like it.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828408#Comment_118828408

I think you have it wrong. There actually is no money for it. To get the money for it you have to put your hand in the middle income workers pocket with higher taxes. There just isnt the money in those pockets anymore. They are all trying to pay rent and buy houses, while the government are using the traxes they pay to compete against them for said property.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828270#Comment_118828270

The party that backed ‘birthright citizenship’. .? No….The opposite is the case if Sinn Fein get in… the housing and social crises in this country will be multiplied beyond comprehensive ability but it would get them votes which is their modus operandi…

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828358#Comment_118828358

They'll get into power and do the only thing they are good at - blame FF & FG

It was hilarious after the last election when FF & FG left SF off for ages to do some deals with minor parties and independents to form a government only for SF to spend most of that time crying about FF & FG for not going into coalition with them even though SF had spent the whole election saying how FF & FG were a bunch of useless idiots 😄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827759#Comment_118827759

There is a massive difference between private housing developers and councils developing social housing, ive worked with both and the councils are a disaster as they have no motivation to push projects along and the upper/middle management sign off on project phases and budgets takes months, its a total joke when they have bypassed planning with Part 8 to "fast track" housing.

magicbastarder

the government will probably claim it's unconstitutional, but we can have a referendum for it - any property which has been derelict for more than X number of years should be seized, made safe by the local authority, and sold at auction. if the 'rightful' owner comes looking for it, they get the proceeds from the auction minus the costs to the local authority.

it certainly won't solve the housing crisis overnight, but it's ludicrous how some property is allowed rot. i moved into a house a few hundred metres from these houses in 2003, and they were derelict back then. the council had to step in several times to make them safe, so they're a drain on the taxpayer:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3627956,-6.2743212,3a,75y,177.68h,89.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sad3EwXHPSq5pQArbQRK-uQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

BailMeOut

The capital markets are awash with cash with nowhere to go. Any developer needing money to build xx homes with some expected rate of return (relatively low for the finance side) can get get this money easily. Same with governments, they can pretty much raise as much money as needed on the bond markets. It's not about money, they issue is entirely related to everything else I noted.

BailMeOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828469#Comment_118828469

The capital markets are awash with cash with nowhere to go. Any developer needing money to build xx homes with some expected rate of return (relatively low for the finance side) can get this money easily. Same with governments, they can pretty much raise as much money as needed on the bond markets. It's not about money, the issue is entirely related to everything else I noted.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828782#Comment_118828782

I clearly dont know the developers you are talking to :)

The ones ive been talking to can build for a price that makes it worthwhile anymore. They also cant get money to do it anymore.

And sure everyone thinks ahh sure thew governent just go to the bond markets without thinking about the consequences of that.

CPTM

I think we should ease the A1/A2 BER requirement which (I believe) is still in place for new builds. Properties with B1 ratings are demonstrably fine. But in saying that, I would only open that door to builders who have achieved a certain number of A1/A2 houses already. Say if a builder comes along with a plan for 100 houses, 50 of them can be B1 houses so long as the other 50 are A1/A2 rating. They can bring one B1 or B2 property to the market for every one A2 property they've brought to the market.

I love the idea of A2 properties but we need to fix this supply issue, and reaching those standards is very difficult for builders, particularly with the global supply chain issues we're seeing at the moment.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828397#Comment_118828397

...and this resolves the issue of lack of supply by.......

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828408#Comment_118828408

...the abilities of the market in providing us with all our needs, is nothing but a myth, theres is now sufficient evidence to support this globally! this is the adult discussion we must now have, but we still dont want to admit this to ourselves!

yes one of the issues is in fact money, but we have decided the best use of most newly created money, in both the public and private domains, is to use it to increase the value of assets, in particular in relation to property and land, and not in creating new assets, including new properties!

yes, there's serious issues in the sectors you have mentioned , planning, regulations, taxes, i.e. public domain issues, but there is also serious issues within the private sectors, particularly within the fire sectors, as the main goals within these sectors is to maximize returns, at all costs, which in turn leads to speculation! i.e. our currently situation is an accumulation of major failures within both public and private sectors, both are equally at fault

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828536#Comment_118828536

again, yes, there is serious issues within the public sector, but handing the majority of this critical need over to the private sector, particularly the fire sectors, has catastrophically failed, we need to grow up now, and accept these failures.....

BailMeOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828865#Comment_118828865

I am talking about proper developers who can build at scale. Example Cairn homes who raise their money to develop from the public markets on the Irish stock exchange. Glenveagh is another one doing something similar.

Mom and pop developers are only a band-aid and we need I believe somewhere around 50,000 homes a year so billions of euros are needed to finance this and this is available on worldwide capital markets (quite easily I will add).

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829043#Comment_118829043

You should run in the next election :)

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238629/housing-crisis-your-take

What does DMcW mean by borrow from "Europe"?

Does he mean the ECB? Impossible, as the ECB don't lend to states.

Does he mean the EU, as in the Commission? Until recently, the EU does not lend to states.

There is a new COVID fund, though, which involved the Commission borrowing, and making grants to states.

Geuze

Quick policies:

(1) drive down the cost of development land by a lot

(2) move the 40,000 people on the Live Register whose last occupation was related to building back into employment

(3) reduce the cost of finance faced by property developers (both AHBs and private)

Claw Hammer

Housing needs a twin strategy. Solve the current homeless/high rent issues and get new development underway to cater for the accummulating accommodation requirements.

By far the simplest thing to do is make better use of existing buildings to reduce outlay on hotels for the homeless and reduce rents generally.

There are numerous other requirement :-An apprenticeship scheme.

A properly structured construction industry with finance and standards.

A properly integrated planning system with pre-planning meetings, realistic applications quick turnaround of applications and appeals including judicial review.

Dealing with trading in planning as opposed to building.

It is a massive set of interlocking challenges and problems and so far there has just been cherry-picking of solutions with short term measures which are ineffective or cause worse problems than those they are intended to solve.

Xterminator

1: We elect governments for 5 years. 2: The housing crisis will not be fixed in 5 years.

So we get a housing policy skewed with announcements and tinkering at the edges. Any government that invests in a policy that takes over 5 years to deliver will not reap the benefits.

What we need is a housing agency, with funding ringfenced, run independently of the government of the day. Something like NAMA for building housing. It should have the power to recommend legislative changes if needed, & be able build housing projects using fast track planning to avoid NIMBYISM. To avoid planning concerns it may even require EU acceptance.

Its aim should be to deliver the number of housing units required with the correct balance of private/public units for sale & for rental The we need to hire the right people to run it and trust them enough to accept their recommendations.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828015#Comment_118828015

We can borrow to our hearts content, money has never been cheaper. The will is just not there, too many vested interests. Thats not exclusive to Ireland either, most capitalist nations have left their housing development to the private sector.

JimmyVik

If it couldnt be solved before the population suddenly increases by over 100k then I dont fancy anyones chance of solving it now.

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829673#Comment_118829673

We are falling over government agencies, approved housing bodies and local council housing depts as it is, we don't need any more quangos, they are a massive hole of public sector wages not delivering on what they should be doing for years now.

The LDA do seem to be pushing ahead with a lot of good plans though but the fact it exists clearly demonstrates the other depts aren't doing their jobs.

Im still wondering when government money is actually going to start getting funneled towards helping out middle income working families priced out of the market, lots of talk about affordable homes and affordable rental, shared equity etc but I see little to none getting delivered, its all new 4eva homes for those that are already the biggest drain on the economy.

I'm actually trying to find a place for rent for nearly 5 weeks now, applying for absolutely everything on daft.ie in Dublin

Probably applied for at least 100 places and only had 3 viewings

In those viewings I'd say 80% of the other people were non Irish people.

Prices are savage but when almost anybody can get HAP what do you expect.

Can build as many houses you want but won't solve a thing when every Tom Dick and Harry keep coming into the country

NIMAN

We haven't really got a housing crisis. Wait until 200,000 refugees need to be housed in the next year, that'll be a proper housing crisis.

snow_bunny

Yellow_Fern

Posters might no aware the barriers to construction are increasing all the time. From 2024 we have a statutory register of builders which all we will to join. In a couple of years later, BER certs will be downgraded and houses being built as we speak will have to be retrofit.

snow_bunny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829673#Comment_118829673

That's the most intelligent and realistic idea I've heard yet.

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830412#Comment_118830412

A fully qualified sparks with 3-4 years experience would be on 50k yeah, bit more if he's good for a foreman but a good few go back to college and end up engineers - not many trades that are still fun in your late 40's unless you are the boss of a crew and off the tools so its easy to see how you would give it up for a lower paid but less strenuous job. The big money is in being self employed but that creates all sorts of issues for mortgages and its not for everyone to be self motivated all the time.

Still trades are cleaning up at the moment especially with the cash nixers, not surprised so many are still on covid payment...