Eviction notice + Leaving early

Dav010

Have to say, I don’t think the LL should expect to have it both ways. If he/she won’t allow a tenant to assign their interest in a lease agreement, I don’t think he/she is in a position to demand full rent when one moves out. If the tenants are unable to find a new short term tenant, then yes, the rent is due in full from whomever remains.

It is also worth considering that having a reference will benefit those looking for a new place to rent, their name on the RTB website will not.

manonboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818811#Comment_118818811

Doesnt your view mean that when someone moves in they join a group and group responsibility automatically, but you dont apply the same standard when someone wants to move out that they get to disengage from that group responsibility of the house (as others are remaining).

if others remain, the OP is no longer part of the group. If nobody remains, the landlord has the house back and whether they choose to rerent for a short period or not is only the landlords problem.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238294/eviction-notice-leaving-early

In practice, the simplest thing to do would be for all of you to move out at the same time - you can do this at any time before the notice date you have been given. This would save arguments over who is liable for the rent when the first person moves out.

If it's the case the ye really want to get someone in to cover the period when the first person is gone, I think (open to correction on this though) that the remaining tenants could take someone in as a licencee for that period

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818864#Comment_118818864

You can leave a group once you discharge your responsibilities. What would the point of a group be if you can just say "I'm out" once there is any responsibility?

I find some of these argument incredibly childish. The issue is with the other tenants. They should have a joint adult discussion.

They either pay the full amount or they all move out and make the place available to the landlord. They just have to agree the details among themselves. At no point is it reasonable to have the property in their possession and not pay the full rent

cfingers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818811#Comment_118818811

What makes you think when people move into house share they become a group - ie jointly and severally liable? Is it based on rtb adjucations or legislation or something else?

endacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818321#Comment_118818321

I’m not a landlord, but I agree with the posters you allude to. Why? Because they’re correct. You can have your own agenda, but facts are community property.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818864#Comment_118818864

When you enter a house with a joint tenancy, you have to accept the legal obligations which come with that.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817523#Comment_118817523

Stop giving incorrect information. A tenant cannot be brought to the small claims process in court. That is utter nonsense. The small claims process is for taking cases against businesses.

Its is actually simple. you are jointly and severally liable for the rent. That is the most common arrangement, and since there is no written agreement to the contrary, that is what is going to stand.

You can either a) make up the rent between ye or b) not make up the rent and the landlord would be entitled to take it out of yer deposits at the end.

And if the deposit doesn't cover it, well then there is jack sh!it nothing the landlord can do about it unless he wants to take ye to and RTB tribunal for the sake of a few hundred quid. Even if he got a judgement, he'd have no chance of collecting it.

That is what it boils down to. Take it or leave it girl.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819040#Comment_118819040

The fact that they don’t have individual lease agreements, verbal or written, should be the giveaway. Probably also depends on who advertised the tenancy when the op moved in, was it a tenant moving out, or the LL looking to rent a room to a tenant separate to those already renting in the property.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819149#Comment_118819149

Think you better check your claim about the SCC. It does allow for disputes involving people renting under license.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818811#Comment_118818811

You seem to be discussing very general terms here which isn't helpful for the OP. You state that correct notice is given but you have no idea how long the lease is in place. You have no idea on the conditions of the OP renting.

Maybe the head tenant on the lease is subletting and the OP isn't liable for the full rent. Just moving into the house doesnt mean you are fully responsible. The fact that the OP never had contact with the landlord before now suggests they are not on a lease.

To answer the question, I do not think you should be able to move random people into and out of houses, of course not. But the person leaving should be allowed propose a new person. This is not them abandoning their financial responsibility, it is them accepting them.

My position is that maybe the OP and others are fully liable for the full rent. Maybe the head tenant is fully liable for the full rent and the OP is not. Maybe they got valid notice and maybe they didn't. The fact is that you don't know a lot of the details in this case but are giving out definitive answers.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819149#Comment_118819149

If you read what I said you would know it was the other tenants can bring the non paying tenant to small claims court for the rent they pay for them. Nothing to do with the landlord. Are you saying that is incorrect.

CreadanLady

No they damn well can't. The small claims procedure is for consumers who want to resolve disputes with businesses.

It is not for Paddy taking housemate Mary to court because she owes her share of the rent

So yes I am telling you you are incorrect.

cfingers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819157#Comment_118819157

I also think who advertised place should have impact on if they are jointly and severally liable - I also think if they pay landlord individually or if one person pays landlord it should impact it. However I've no legal backing or rtb cases to my view so my view isn't really worth much.

What's the legal backing to you view? Especially interested in your viewnl that lack of any written or verbal lease making it defacto group lease and not a defacto individual lease.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819249#Comment_118819249

Ignoring the legalities and making up your own is probably even less helpful.

There is no lease standard section 5 kicks in after 6 months. You don't understand that no lease is involved in this specific case and therefore the standard rules and regulations apply.

There is no head tenant

You do not know what you are talking about.

I asked you a ton of questions so you would think about what you are saying and explain how your logic works. You answered one question and didn't just answer it but used it to bring in another weird concept of a head tenant. You are making up all kind of scenarios and things not said. There is no question on valid notice because that is not part of the issue unless you just want to find a loop hole which again is not addressing the issue at hand. All tenants liable for the rent that simple

ohthistime

Thanks all.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819342#Comment_118819342

That's a lot of definites in your answers. How do you know there is no lease? All your answers seem to be based on the fact that there is no lease but that wasn't actually said. The OP said they didn't sign a lease.

If there was no lease then I fully agree with your answers.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819325#Comment_118819325

I think you would be better asking the most important person on this thread, the op, to confirm what type of lease he/she has, joint or individual.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819460#Comment_118819460

They already said they had no lease. You know the actual details of the issue. If you want to say she never signed a lease it still doesn't matter. To bring in a new theory that there is a lease but the op and the other tenants she spoke to never signed it is the massive stretch. It doesn't matter they are obliged legally and certainly morally. You don't leave somebody else to pay your financial responsibilities period. It is absolutely bizzar to try and move it onto the landlord. If the rent reduced for that reason as a land I would say fine if I am paying for it I am moving in. Seems fair if we are going to claim the space is not used and want the landlord to pay for it.

DFB-D

Op just to give you an oversight of the relevant law here, it is a bit tricky.

1. It is most likely that you and the other residents share a tenancy. The landlord is entitled to the entire rent for the property. There is no mechanism currently to reduce the rent on the basis that less persons are resident in the property.

2. The landlord cannot exercise control over the property beyond what is reasonable for a lessor, they need to allow the tenancy holders to enjoy the property. This means you can take in licencees (once there is no overcrowding) . The landlord must be advised of the persons resident in the property, but that is all. I am leaving out some related points about licensees contained in the legislation, but you can read up on that. The above is not effected by tenancy terms agreed, the legislation and practice covers it.

3. You are free to leave within the notice period with no penalty if the landlord is the party issuing notice.

I think your best bet is to reason with the LL who understandably wants minimal fuss, but reason that you are taking in a short term licensee and the LL does not have the legal responsibility of an additional tenant here. The licensee can request to become a tenant but as notice has been given the LL can refuse on that basis, so you would be responsible for the licensee.

Jmc25

I'd probably contact Threshold for some advice OP, particularly in the absence of a lease which would specify your actual obligations in this case.

LL clearly wants you all to move out together and that's fair enough, but given that legislation in the area is currently favourable to tenants, they should have taken the minimum steps to protect themselves in the form of having an actual lease for the tenancy.

If Threshold say you've to pay your rent then pay it. If they say you don't then don't and don't feel bad about it, LL only has themselves to blame.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821143#Comment_118821143

Just to be clear you believe the person has no moral responsibility here?

spaceHopper

The RTB web site is your bible,

When did this happen?

Did the LL follow the correct procedures, did he give you the correct letter from the RTB site?  If not the notice is invalid.

Who said if somebody moved out you had to make up the rest of the rent? If it wasn’t the LL there may be no problem here.

Do you each pay the LL or is there one payment to the LL? If you each pay the LL it could be seen that you are renting a room in the house individually and you aren’t liable for any shot fall.

The RTB have a help line you can call them for advice. This will give you a definitive answer better than any you will get here. 

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822206#Comment_118822206

where is LL's moral responsibility?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822577#Comment_118822577

I think the most important info the op can provide is the circumstances in which he/she moved in. Did they all move in together to a house advertised at €XXXX per month, did he/she replace a tenant who moved out, was he/she invited by existing tenants. If the op wasn’t there when the tenancy commenced, chances are there is a written tenancy agreement somewhere, but the original signatories may not be in the house. But if the current tenants replaced the originals at versions stages, all are bound by the original terms of the tenancy.

So look, we can all speculate on what the op’s rights are, but until he/she confirms what type of tenancy exists in the house, no correct advice can be offered.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822608#Comment_118822608

Answering a question with a question is not an answer

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818755#Comment_118818755

Right over your head.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822952#Comment_118822952

Wow you put me in my place.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817743#Comment_118817743

What happens if the tenancy was registered for one original tenant and the OP and other housemates are lodgers - OP said nobody signed anything and had no contact with the landlord.

People moving into house shares need to know if they are lodgers or tenants as their rights might be different. Who did they pay deposits to and did they replace a housemate who left?

My nephew moved into a 2b place with one registered tenant as the rent got too much for one person. They had the landlords permission but he was a lodger as he wasn't replacing another registered tenant.

Initially he paid the deposit and rent to the 'head tenant' and when he checked with the RTB they said he had to request to become a tenant and the landlord should add him to the RTB register. RTB said a lodger doesn't become a tenant automatically and the landlord could refuse. There was no problem and the LL sorted all the paperwork and then got paid the deposit and rent share from the head tenant.

RTB also told him when a new person is added to a registered tenancy, their part4 rights don't kick-in for 6 months. Apparently its the same if someone is replacing a departing tenant who is on the register - just because someone is a replacement it doesn't mean they have part4 rights from day one. After 6 months they have the same rights for the remainder of the tenancy cycle.

If someone is a lodger and wants to leave early, not much a head-tenant can do - whoever signs the lease is liable for the rent.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818321#Comment_118818321

Not every (or vaguely close to) poster here is a landlord, and someone giving advice you don't agree with does not make them a landlord either.