is entering dairying still an option

older by the day

There are alot of lads around here thinking that milk is "white gold". And if dairying is what the man likes, well more luck to him. He will make an income, but he must count the cost. Investment needed and lifestyle.

".you sound like your absolute torchered milking to be honest"

Had calves the last two nights so absolutely wrecked 🤣. That is the point a small dairy farm is a one man band, it's all on his shoulders

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118815679#Comment_118815679

Big difference between 40k farming and 40k as a PAYE worker. As a PAYE worker you nett 617 euro per week out of the 40k salary. Out of that wage you may have 50-100/week in travel costs and other work expenses.

A farmer may have part of your day to day expenses written off whether car it's maintenance and running costs, phone and broadband, electricity, bits and pieces that can be written off. These all shelter the marginal rate of tax

Dickie10

i hope i dont sound rude but outside of summer contracting and sheep lambing surely your not under pressure all day during Autumn and Winter , maybe do a bit of labouring on buildings or get a handy part time job? Farm relief milking ?

Would advise to have a look at other enterprises before giving yourself a life sentence.

Iv worked on dairy farms a few years and it's 24/7 365

An absolutely thankless job

alps

Milk the cows, it'll be a nice little earner if you keep it simple.

Fellas want to complicate things until there's nothing out of it.

K.G.

one other thing.herself works in a job nothing related to farming and its always been part of our thinking that if the farm went pear shaped or hit hard times at least we d have her income to live on. In your scenario if agri hit the doldrums you have no back up.school sna s or care assistant s in hospital s only require a relatively short course and are not bad jobs with good conditions with pay nearly as good as teacher and nurses

K.G.

What would you expect to get for 100k in terms of buildings.i couldn't see even the parlour done now for 100k even with second hand machine

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816575#Comment_118816575

Would you have much help at home?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816648#Comment_118816648

Good parlours come up pretty regularly, there was a nice 10 unit delaval on twitter before Xmas for 5k

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816575#Comment_118816575

I think this is the nub of it. There is a lot of lads involved in dairying that have been in continual expansion mode and forget about costs above and below 70 cows. As well they can only relate all costs to there own enterprise.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816192#Comment_118816192

I've a colleague on sick leave for over 1 year on full pay, big difference indeed.

Look it's up to OP, I'm just explaining there are easier ways to make a better living outside of the "white gold" every morning,noon and night.

And it certainly takes a tight ship to get anywhere near the figures been given here

weatherbyfoxer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817148#Comment_118817148

working on an oil rig or as others mentioned care assistant,sna or hospital care staff..i would hate every moment of that work..before i took over the farm i had worked in security both door and static,operated most machines on building site and have held tickets for most

if i wanted easy money i could lease the farm to a local dairy farm and take home 60k per year from driving a track machine or simular...id make plenty of money but id hate my life,also have no interest in getting an off farm job and part time farming on a Saturday and all day sunday.

100k would cover buying and installing a 2nd had parlour and revelent equipment into an existing shed,a 2 bay tank fitted into an existing shed,cover a yard (quote for this is €12,600) and fit cubicles into shed..small bit of digger work needed to widening area for milk lorry...i reckon 100k would have alot of it done but will get proper pricings

cute geoge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817237#Comment_118817237

The only mistake you have made is that you have not already converted ,what is holding you back ??

Why have you to come on here to validate your idea to start milking ,like you have been told it is not a walk in the park and more of a vocation rather then a job

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817237#Comment_118817237

What have you got to lose so? It's about the practicalities now? How much of the 100k do you need to borrow? Have you approached lenders and can you get the money? Have you approached a processor? Have you approached bord bia about getting quality assured for dairy? When do you intend starting? Buy calved cows day 1 or rear some heifers while converting the buildings?

It's farming you want to do and you might as well milk cows if you think that will be more secure, I'd wish you the best and if you do make the switch I hope it will go well for you.

weatherbyfoxer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817340#Comment_118817340

first port of call is making sure i can get a contract,im in a glanbia area,have been offered of the required amount of co op shares from a family member,just seeing at the moment if i meet the required €5k trade spending think i could be a few 100 short of it for my 2020 spending but 2021 spending is up to the level..so thats the first steps i reckon

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817237#Comment_118817237

My one fear for you after you posting that is that you may be inflexible in certain situations. I always considered work as a way of earning a living. Farming was the same to me and it created wealth for me.

You said you do not like the idea if working all week and farming Saturday and Sunday. You are facing working 40-45 of the Saturday and Sundays for the next 20+years. Ya you can get relief milking but you are still tied to the place.

It's the one thing that would have stopped me ever considering going milking cows. While costs have risen exploded this year it's a 12-18 month issue. I also think prices may reflect these costs or even more than them. It's the ability to manage the.money side of the business that causes problems

Having said that I think dairying is profitable. 70% of dairy farmers I see have decent setups. The ones I see with the least stress are the 60-100 cow men that have these setups going for years.

I think that some lads bought into expansion, expansion expansion without realising the workload and cost. Many in there 20's went roofless cubicles, lagoons etc to maximize cow numbers and now find they are continually investing to upgrade.

As well they are finding pressure points hitting them, whether it's calf value, going to have to retain calves longer, rising costs,labour, environmental pressures ( upgrading roads, roofing cubicles areas, slurry storage, limits on fertlizer) etc. Mainly they missunderstood the business and the continual investment in the type of project they took on .

OP I see you have little budgeted for farm roadway or for water installation. While the road is there the surface may need upgrading for cows walking it every day. A proper water system could cost 15 k, however you are stocked at 165kgsN/ HA so I expect that at present a good basic system is in place.

You still haven't said how much of the 100 k you need to borrow. The total will cost you 160-180/ cow over 15 years. You have to be careful with any additional borrowings. While you have no borrowing at present and this is an advantage, you may not understand the discipline of managing loans.

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817237#Comment_118817237

To answer your question I think it 8s to late for conversion to dairy.do not underestimate the potential threats coming down the line.i would not base any plan on milking more than 40 cows and a yearly supply of 250 k litres.that is due to potential regs coming down the line and I believe will come into play.i was in a similar postion to you back in the noughties except we had 35 cows a parlour and some winter accommodation on 40 acres and in 2009 I gave up off farm work and started milking fulltime.the environment surrounding dairy was completely different then and in the intervening 13 years I have never seen as much headwinds to milking cows as I do now.i don't see capital costs in infrastructure coming in for 100k and I would not contemplate going milking if I didn't have the value of the cows in either stock or cash on hand.best of luck to you

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817237#Comment_118817237

But what makes you think you wouldn't hate milking cows if you have no experience as such? You've made reference to not wanting to work weekends on more than one occasion in this thread. I don't think the borrowings mentioned would be a patch on it tbh.

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817515#Comment_118817515

went head long into expansion here and love every minute of it, I’ve yet to meet a farmer who has regretted it so far. Lots of money spent and will continue too, you’ll have a yard falling down around yiu in 10 years if you don’t reinvest in it

I’ve scoury calves atm but it’s part of the road

think you’re making up a big fairy tale there bass

100k, even 120k isn’t big money over 10 years if OP gets a nice set up, he’ll get good money fit his current stock this year to convert into cows/heifers

if he can find a nice 12 unit plus parlour he’d be milked and washed up in 50 minutes

you’re making a big deal out of borrowing money, it’s not. OP surely has experience with borrowing money for machinery/ his mortgage for his house etc

weatherbyfoxer

what i mean when i stated i dont want to farm at the weekends and work off farm full time is the fact of trying to cram a week of farm work into a Saturday and sunday like i see so many part time lads at,..my friends,relatives and neibours who have started milking in recent time are wrong and slaves according too alot of the comments on this tread?..they must be exsperts at hiding it so?

thanks to everyone for the helpful advice and points as my plans and ideas are still in there infancy

but it seem now the thread is now turning too to sledging,it seems there is alot of bitterness in some of these farming fourms unfortunately,..ask i stated im only a young farmer looking at his options of what he can do with his farm to make an income..i havent jumped onto any dairy bandwagon assuming its a get easy way to make a fortune

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818303#Comment_118818303

You picked a bad time to ask the question as most lads are fairly wrecked and cranky at this time of year.maybe ask it again in the autumn when the pressure is off and you might get more positive responses from the milking lads 😁

older by the day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818303#Comment_118818303

Sher work away so. There are a big mix of views on here. Some intelligent, some not as much. Its completely up to yourself. At the end of the day if you succeed or fail it's not the end of the world. A lot of lads around here have retired from farming and they are fine. My couple of posts were negative, but in my eyes they were true. Don't underestimate the cost and the time. Learn about tbc, cell count, protein, fat, thermoduric, antibiotics use in dairying and you will be fine. If you talk to ten farmers you could get ten different views. ITS COMPLETELY UP TO YOURSELF

Mooooo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818380#Comment_118818380

Usual phases of the year; spring, "I've too many cows!" to autumn, " could prob carry another share of cows!"

Easten

Some of the comments are mad. Expecting to make 60k a year in an off farm job with no qualifications? jezz what planet are ye on. The average wage is around the 40k outside of Dublin and most positions need a qualification or at least you'd be competing for the job with someone who has. 60k in Dublin is equivalent to 40k elsewhere and doesn't leave much room for savings. And you won't be standing around idle either.

If the OP wants to go milking far play to him, and even if he doesn't make a fortune he'll still be his own boss, it's a great lifestyle when you compare it to some of the jobs out there. Cut your cloth to measure, even if you have to start smaller than you think, at least you'll be in the game and be able to expand in the future be it from renting a bit more ground or getting someone to contract rear the replacements.

White Clover

)@weatherbyfoxer I think if you've good land, go for it. That much alone will take a lot of the stress and work out of it. If you can make 40k at the cows and another 10k at the contracting, it'd be worth a lot more than a 50k paye job and you'll be happy.

Remember too that a lot of these so called cushy well paid paye jobs are head wreckers. The idea that they are 9 to 5 Monday to friday is very misleading.

I have 80 acres of heavyish ground, if it was good free draining land, I'd be doing what you're thinking of doing.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818303#Comment_118818303

Sure you asked for thoughts and opinions? I get the impression you have your mind made up and I wish you the best with it. What do your friends, neighbours and relatives think of your plans?

weatherbyfoxer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820295#Comment_118820295

they all say its well worth looking at,the land here is all good quality ground,90% of it was in a tillage rotation system when my father was farming growing beet,potatoes or barley..it would allow me to be able to get out cows early enough in the spring

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238161/is-entering-dairying-still-an-option

I didn't read the whole thread but I'll give my two cents here anyway. I took over the place here 5 or 6 years ago. Started off with 65 cows and milking about 75 now. Gave up my job of 20 years to go dairy farming. I think I nearly did it as a favour to my parents more than anything else.

The place here was fairly well set up but I've invested at least another 120k in sheds/infrastructure. Probably spent another 100k in machinery and the stock cost 100k. I've all debt paid off now and did most of it from cashflow.

It's hard relentless work but rewarding too. You could nearly compare it to having children 😀. I like the breeding side of it myself and the fact that I'm running my own business. My biggest problem is the workload can be a bit much at times but moreso the fact that I'm a bit too tied to the place. It's hard to get away anywhere for anymore than a day or two at a time.

My wife is not interested in farming or the lifestyle which doesn't help either.

Happy enough at it overall and have the children out and about with me loads and they like it. Great place to raise a family.

My accountant has me at 1k euro profit per cow but the reality is it's all been going back into it over the past 5 years. From now on I intend saving some of the profits.

weatherbyfoxer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821001#Comment_118821001

yea was talking to glanbia wont be too much hassle,if i go ahead id be set to milk spring 2024

seeing all this talk of herd reductions and the spiralling building costs are my only concerns about the idea

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823525#Comment_118823525

Will they take you before 2024 if you wanted

weatherbyfoxer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823785#Comment_118823785

be hard pushed by they time its goes to the board and paperwork is done..i think it would be a bit of a rush job now on my own part too

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823864#Comment_118823864

So they are taking on new nitrates next year aswell then.. This is nothing against you but I don't think they should be taking on new entrants full stop while existing suppliers are restricted..like I'm restricted to sub 250k litres in a spring calving system because of low reference year litres. I presume you could supply up to 550k litres without restriction.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824504#Comment_118824504

As of now, Those restrictions will end in 2024 won't they?

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824541#Comment_118824541

Ye they are in place for 22,23 and 24 as it stands

weatherbyfoxer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824504#Comment_118824504

the person i was talking to said new entrants are limited to 80-90 cows depending on output

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824646#Comment_118824646

Where as me an existing supplier for 60 years is restricted to 40 cows

Green&Red

OP, I'm someone who decided to go back into milk at 40, second year in the parlour now and love it. We had a dairy herd up until 2005 so I knew what was involved but it is a fantastic way of life. Lads give out about being too busy at calving but its exhilarating. You don't know tiredness until you've done it but its the best time of year. We've had a baby the last two years and the flexibility it gives for family life is brilliant. In my experience there is no issue with getting relief milkers once you're set up well.

I'd agree with getting the infrastructure as cheap as you can, I put the roads in myself. I did find it difficult to find a bank to lend to me was one thing I'd look out for, BOI said no, AIB offered over 9 years which was a non-runner, UB were very helpful but theyre not an option now.

You mentioned your dad had tillage, how are the P&K? Could be a massive hidden cost. If you can reseed everything before you start, growing as much grass as you can is key.

I'd agree with what Pinsnbushings says below, you mentioned a clearance sale, do everything you can to get as good as stock as you can, ignore the price where they are concerned. I'd also agree with the replacements, the best way of improving your herd is to breed your own. If you've bought in good quality stock you'll have no shortage of lads looking for anything leaving your farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812990#Comment_118812990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812819#Comment_118812819

I'd disagree with GTM and suggest JEX, with the right breeding you'll do 600kg and you'll have a smaller cow, maintenance above €30.

You mentioned that you couldn't be looking at extreme JE or HO round the place, my advice is that whatever type of cow you do go for lose that attitude, its all about the cow's genomic potential. If she has four legs and no obvious defect thats all you need to worry about, the rest is what her paper says about her, if you've seen the film moneyball its like that.

Best of luck with it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812867#Comment_118812867

What would the net margin be per cow if you using your own land and not renting?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861735#Comment_118861735

That is the third secret of Fatima. You have just posted scarilege. You must include a land charge as well as an own labour charge and include an opportunity cost.

A cow milking 5500 litres is grossing about 2.5k in milk sales at present. If it back at 33c/ L it's about 1.8k per cow Try to calculate from that

The one thing for sure lads will be very slow to fix a milk price from now on. Heard rumours about farmers that had 50%+ of there milk fixed at 30-32c/ L. 😓. It must be a disaster for these lads. Some have 1-2 years left on contracts

Fixed pricing only benefits larger buyers. It's not in the interest of farmers as lads have learned now

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862020#Comment_118862020

That’s bordering on criminal on a farmer that is fixed in considering current price of 45 cent a litre and the input cost rises

I was thinking if using your own land and own labour.

I see fellas online saying anything less than 100 cows is a waste of time. Then I see fellas milking 80 or so finishing lovely stock.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862038#Comment_118862038

I remember posting a few years ago about fixed prices. Grain producers got caught fixing 5+ years ago and got caught by rising prices and bad harvests.

Last year processor's were quoting fixed price deals at 4-6c/ below market prices and milk prices were rising. When prices were 24/26c per liter fixed price were 28c/ L. You are always and I mean always better to ride the waves of the market. There is no upside in fixed prices for the average farmer

However lads made them choices. There fear was if a market collapse. They never figured on a price surge like what happened.

whelan2

Banks were also pushing for farmers to have fixed price milk

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862491#Comment_118862491

I'd be very slow to go with fixed price. I think we have only seen the start of price inflation and and any Agriculture prices are only doing catch up at the moment.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861012#Comment_118861012

OP, I'm someone who decided to go back into milk at 40, second year in the parlour now and love it. We had a dairy herd up until 2005 so I knew what was involved

Were you still set up for dairying?

There is a huge difference between someone like yourself, who was born and bred dairying and milked cows until you were 25, and someone who never put a set of clusters on.

I think there is a huge difference between someone who stopped for a few years and went back dairying and someone who never did it previously.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862491#Comment_118862491

Banks have a lot to answer for

Green&Red

Needed to buy a new parlour, build a dairy. Had the cubicle sheds with a few alterations to do.

Maybe the learning curve is steep for milking, I suppose it depends on the lad learning it. My wife never set foot on a farm before we met, she can milk now, is great looking after the calves.

The basics are manageable

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862948#Comment_118862948

Most stick skills are transferrable. It's similar to any trade or skill. Yes the adaptability if the person counts. I be as much afraid of the business skills as the stockman skills.

To build up calving skills use easy calving bulls if you have not calved cows before.. A two day old calf is a lot easier to adapt to a new feeding system than a three week old calf.

Milking is a repetitive process. Of you have a relief milker how long to train him in. After that hygiene goes a long way and knowledge about mastitis is a learning curve.

It's the business skill of handling a larger cash flow that could be as big a catch. A lad milking 60 cows this year could be turning over 150k here on a similar drystock farm maybe half that.

But costs are higher and you have to realise you have to spend but also have to manage costs if you want to maximise return

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118863375#Comment_118863375

I be as much afraid of the business skills as the stockman skills.

Exactly. The animal husbandry isn't the biggest challenge.

Personally, I would consider successful dairy men as incredibly capable businessmen. They have the ability to manage cashflow efficiently when the overheads are far greater than other farming enterprises.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861735#Comment_118861735

Hard one to put a figure on, going off 2020 accounts their was a 150 cows milked, with 60 acres of ground leased for 2 cuts of silage and 22 acres of maize contract grown, all in all this equates to circa 250 tons of imported dm of feed which with circa 1.8 ton of meal going into the cows here, would feed 75 cows a full tmr diet, so you can work it back that 75 cows is what I can carry here plus replacement heifers.

Total cost of imported feed was 60k, total milk sales from these 75 extra cows was 600,000 litres @ 34 cent was 204000 euro less 60k imported silage/maize and another 35k for meal, these ladies left a gross margin of 110k and then you take of your day to day running costs etc, and principal plus intrest payments of circa 20k yearly for infrastructure to facilitate these extra cows, net profit before depreciation/capital allowances extra was circa 750 euro a cow in 2020, if I was milking just the 75 I'd say around the same to be honest, but obviously my workload would be halved

Theirs no fortune been made here to be honest, but what has been achieved is a fairly well set up dairy unit, and alot of land reclaimed and drained that was growing the best of rushes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866143#Comment_118866143

Fair play for sharing all that detail.

750 a cow is good. I’d nearly consider going in to milking but I don’t fancy calving down 75 cows, the early starts, the initial investment and I have a handy number of job so part time farm suits me.

Id say if I lost the job I’d go milking 50 and keep the calves to beef that aren’t replacements.

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866143#Comment_118866143

Different operation here on equivalent numbers but only a little better in the bottom line.we have radically different figures in some categories but it nearly works out the same profit afterwards.