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Father-son tricky transfer issue

  • 16-03-2022 7:53pm
    Registered Users Posts: 18 feirmeoir101

    Hi all, long time lurker etc

    My dad and I have been farming all our lives. For most of that time, as it's not a very intensive operation, I had very little to do and he was able to manage it himself no problems.

    The last 6 years, I've been doing pretty much everything as his health deteriorated. Its a simple drystock operation so it was never a lot of work.

    He's very Ill right now and unfortunately doesn't have much time left with us. I know for a fact the farm has been left to me in his will. I don't have a green cert and I work full time locally.

    We usually purchase cattle around the 1st of April, he might not make it to then unfortunately.

    How will a transfer work in this case? Will I be able to purchase cattle this Spring, can a herd number be transferred that quickly? And what about stamp duty, etc. How messy is that?

    To make matters worse, our farm advisor has gone to ground, won't answer phonecalls, emails, messages etc. My dad has paid him a lot of money down through the years, he's aware he's I'll and is of no help.

    Thanks for reading and all advice appreciated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭ kollegeknight

    Are you worried if a sibling claiming it?

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,693 ✭✭✭✭ road_high

    Get a new advisor then. Take your business elsewhere

  • Registered Users Posts: 18 feirmeoir101

    Not at all worried about a sibling, they support me farming it, re. an advisor, does the old advisor need to send on documents etc? I don't understand the administration side of things re. buying and selling and of course the SFP

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ Large bottle small glass

    Lifetime transfer is a better option.

    Get onto a tax adviser who is experienced in farm transfers.

    If you own very little in your own name you may be able to claim farm relief, business relief might also be an option.

    Move now, you need to get in front of it to keep control of your inheritance.

    Put up where you are living and users will be able to pm you details of good advisers

  • Registered Users Posts: 18 feirmeoir101

    Thank you very much, I'm in Mayo

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭ Dunedin

    First off, Sorry to hear of your dad and hope you get to spend plenty of time with him for what he has left.

    my own circumstances were a bit like yours. Father died in 2008 and farm willed to me. I had the green cert done a few years beforehand but had never followed up with the paperwork so I was effectively untrained farmer. (I may have got the green cert paperwork sorted as part of the transfer but can’t be sure)

    the department were a huge help to me at the time. Made appointment and went in to them and they did it all in a few weeks, completely hassle free. Had to go through the probate with solicitor but basically dept told me what I needed and I went and got it. We were overstocked at the time and my father told me on his deathbed nearly to sell 10 bullocks. I sold them a couple of weeks after and whilst herd number still in his name and no issue. Assume it would be the same for buying????

    as regards BPS, given that it seems you haven’t submitted this yourselves in the past, then get another advisor asap. Kick the other lad to touch. Just ring a couple of your neighbors and see who they have and you’ll very quickly get a decent one.

    best of luck to you.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler

    If the man wants it transferred by will, he mightn't like being pushed to do it before he dies. I know if I decided it that way I take a dim view of being pushed to transfer on my death bed. Leave him alone would be my advice. Every thing will sort itself out after

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ Large bottle small glass

    It would depend on a lot of things, primarily how much time the man has left and if he is still able to make such a big decision.

    But in general terms a lifetime transfer is a better option for the next generation and often for the older generation to; particularly if issues arise around Fair Deal scheme etc.

    The people advising the older generation, particularly lawyers, will never advise it as they will invariably lose the probate fees and the next generation business.

    If the OP's Dad wants his son paying less inheritance tax, and less income tax going forward, along with control over estate lawyers a lifetime transfer is a better bet all day every day.

    I've yet to meet a tax adviser say differently.

    But as you say there may not be time now for that, only the OP knows

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭✭ wrangler

    I don't know how you figure it's more expensive to leave the will to sort it,There is no Stamp Duty or Capital Gains Tax upon a death.

    You have control over the asset for the rest of your life.

    You own the property until you die, and can do with it as you wish.

    This can provide both emotional and financial security.

    You can change your will anytime before you die.

    A will only speaks from death.Therefore, during your lifetime, you can make a will, revoke it, and/or amend it as frequently as you wish.You have the security of the farm for the rest of your life. There is only one tax involved, Capital Acquisitions Tax.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18 feirmeoir101

    Thanks everyone , great advice much appreciated, @Dunedin yes thankfully we're getting to spend some time - he was a great dad and we were able to tell him that and thank him and say all the things one wants to say, however in his weak state, farm talk is off the cards, he's not fit. For the other posters, the ship has sailed for the lifetime transfer, he's not fit to even think of stuff like that. I will contact neighbours and get an advisor. Is Teagasc worth talking to? I will contact the department too.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭ Anto_Meath

    Sorry to hear about your dad. It will work itself, so don't let it over shadow spending quality time with your dad. The one thing I found from my own situation was the department were very helpful, they know the story as they are hearing it all the time & they are very sympathetic. The first thing they will do is appoint you as the herd keeper, that allows you run the farm as normal until all is legally sorted out. A good solicitor is a help as well, as monies from sale of animals & SFP may have to go through them untill all is sorted.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,465 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves

    Sorry to hear about your father. Spend as much time as possible with him. As Wrangles said at this stage it's better to leave the farm to be sorted at will stage.

    Just one thing to understand is that stock and machinery are strictly not part of the farm so ideally need to be mentioned in the will separately however as you and your siblings get on well this should not be an issue.

    It mostly for transfers as young trained V older or untrained farmers. This is moving from 35-40 in the next CAP AFAIK.

    In OP case it is better left to sort at probate now. He could face a significant stamp duty bill if it is transferred at this stage. Stamp duty is 7.5%. there is no stamp duty at probate. The only other issues I'd inheritance tax that is dealt with the same at probate as at lifetime transfer.

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,781 ✭✭✭ 893bet

    Is your mother alive? Have you or her access to the bank account to allow cattle be purchased as needed?

    BpS is open now just get that application in now and that give time to plan for that side of it next year (assuming the worst happens).

    Its not a bad year to do a little less farm wise given the way things are. It will sort it self out.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭ Dunedin

    Aye and BPS is not part of the Will unless stated either.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,694 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump

    After someone passes away, their money can be somewhat locked up until probate. There are ways around that but a little bit of effort I think. Just in terms of accessing funds to restock should the worst case happen before then.

    The benefit of the GC to you would have been to avail of Ag relief. But you don't need it to avail of it. For Ag Relief you have to first pass an asset test (80% of your assets have to be in agriculture at the time of inheritance) and then you have to satisfy one of:

    1) Have GC or other relevant qualification

    2) Lease it to someone who is qualified as per (1)

    3) Spend at least 50% of your time working the place.

    The land then has to be farmed for at least 6 years.

    If you satisfy the above then the CAT is assessed on 10% of the value of the farm. So if your inherited farm is worth 1m, you pay CAT as if it was only worth 100k.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,694 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump

    There is consanguinity relief for SD. I think it leaves it at 1% rather than 7.5%

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭ Dunedin

    you won’t need both Teagasc and an advisor. A good private guy will be cheaper and possibly better than Teagasc. If a neighbour can recommend a good private one, I’d be inclined to go with that.

    i pay my guy €110 a year albeit all he needs to do is submit the BPS as I look after all the schemes myself.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18 feirmeoir101

    Thanks everyone, this is all a huge help, the fact you can be appointed as a herd keeper is great, that was my major worry that we'd lose a year sorting everything out. I'll contact the department too. My mother is alive and well and the cash is there to buy in stock, I'm not bad at managing grass and animals etc. but the wheelin and dealin side of things I don't look forward to.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭ Hard Knocks

    If you had a friend or neighbour that could help till you get enough confidence