Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782556#Comment_118782556

The blog you've linked

https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia?s=r

starts with the claim that the mass protests in Ukraine were a "far right coup". The far right in Ukraine got less than 2% of the vote in the subsequent presidential election, and up to today have lower political representation than the vast majority of European countries. It's the usual Russian propaganda that takes a small amount of truth and distorts it to create a false narrative.

As for the video, it's an hour and a half long, no one is going to watch something that long

If you've watched/read material and you believe there is some conspiracy going on, that's fine, but if you can't explain what this conspiracy is, then it's next to impossible to discuss.

Dohnjoe

I see the title of the thread has changed.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782843#Comment_118782843

i don't know why the thread is still here at all. there is no conspiracy theory. It is just being used by some to circumvent threadbans.

banie01

The "Shared History" and soul of Russia bolloxology that is lifted from Putin's belief in a greater Russia needs to be called out for what it is IMO. Its Revanchist and nostalgic nonsense.

If anyone is struggling with regards to Putin's claims as to why he has invaded Ukraine? Cast your mind back to his history lesson speech pre-invasion, or to his rape joke as to Ukraine not having a choice what happens it. If you still don't get it? If you think ah but he's protecting the Russian speakers?

Well one of my best friend's is a Russian speaking Ukrainian. Roll those last 3 words around slowly and let it sink in. Now rather than get bogged down in comparing Putin's quest for Greater Russia, to Ostland or Lebensraum? If it still doesn't seem like bollox after considering that?

Try this question out and see how you answer.

If anyone believes that containing a Russian speaking population? Gives Russia a claim upon Ukraine or it's territory? Swap Russia for Britain, and Ukraine for Ireland. Then ask the question again.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782888#Comment_118782888

I've just learned a new word so today is not a total waste.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782901#Comment_118782901

Everyday should be a school day ;)

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782888#Comment_118782888

they should also consider why those ukranians speak russian. "shared history" is just bullshit talk for "was once conquered by"

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782843#Comment_118782843

Yep and I highlighted that in my opening post.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782598#Comment_118782598

I've read it before or something very similar, and to me it's very much an after-the-fact revision, scouring everything that was said to fit a narrative. It also leaves out some key details to sweeten the Russian pov. Note how there is no mention of the Russian trade war to force the Ukrainians away from the EU, instead the EU deal was bad and benevolent Russia offered a nice loan.

How there is no mention of the authority efforts to violently suppress the protests which is what caused the entire protest movement to stiffen instead of fade away like most occupy movements. By the time we get to the 'snipers' the protesters were deeply entrenched. And as for the snipers, we're supposed to believe the conspiracy that it was from the Maidan supporters and ignore the conspiracy it was from the gov/police, who up until that point had been torturing, killing and disappearing protesters whenever they could get away with it (~40 protesters had been killed by that point).

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782952#Comment_118782952

Indeed, but this is a conspiracy theory forum, e.g. the pandemic was "planned", aliens, all that kind of stuff. Perhaps the politics/current affairs forums.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782969#Comment_118782969

Would it be fair to say that a western explanation of above would equally leave out the bits that makes the west look bad?

John Meirsheimer seems to be quite respected in his field and he flat out has been blaming the west for years.

I guess nobody cares how it’s ended up here and it’s not easy to find credible sources that are not bias or tainted with subjective priorities.

Used to love history in school, never occurred to me that I was reading somebody else’s version of events.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783005#Comment_118783005

I put the thread in here because I thought it would be clear I wasn’t implying it to be fact.

Flinty997

That video linked does similar sort of post event revisionisms. Implying the US resorts to force same as Russia did here. Using the Nuclear bombing of Japan as a similar example. When the context and situation are nothing like the same. There was more along that vein. I couldn't finish watching it as the sound was so bad and there was too much whataboutery about statesmanship when that ship has sailed.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783023#Comment_118783023

Lies are lies no matter what forum they are put in. Perhaps you put it here because you thought you could avoid the moderation in Current Affairs or Politics? how about that for a conspiracy.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783023#Comment_118783023

So there's no conspiracy angle to this whatsoever?

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783050#Comment_118783050

Lies? And you know this how?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783075#Comment_118783075

by having a functioning brain.

goldenmick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782843#Comment_118782843

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782952#Comment_118782952

Bit of a step back from your original thread title:  “war in Ukraine is primarily USA fault”

Would that be because:

a) Sensible posters on the thread have made you re-evaluate the heaviness of your original heading

b) The loony Putin apologists on the thread have made you stop and think

c) Maybe the USA is really not that bad

d) You're just pedantic

Answers on a postcard please.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783051#Comment_118783051

It’s a conspiracy if it’s not true. I don’t know if it’s true or not, hence the reason I put in here .

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783116#Comment_118783116

Actually I changed it to stop the abuse.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783143#Comment_118783143

people telling you that you are wrong is not abuse.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783119#Comment_118783119

Indeed, but a conspiracy forum is not exactly a good place to get to the facts, of anything.

If you genuinely want to know about the current situation, and run up to it, to get the basics perhaps start on Wikipedia, and use the sources. The 2014 Ukrainian uprising is a good start.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783144#Comment_118783144

I am asking a question , what am I wrong about ?

banie01

I think if someone wants to associate a conspiracy with Ukraine, Russia and the west? That Carol Cadwalladr and her colleagues have done a sterling job of laying it out and providing the receipts.

The conspiracy is the Russian effort to fracture western alliances, the EU and national politics. The worrisome thing is just quite how successful they have been.

From ringing the alarm bells on Cambridge Analytica to pulling together the threads of Russian hybrid war, one could do far worse than read her articles from 2015 to date as even just a starting point to try and debunk rather than embrace IMO.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783151#Comment_118783151

you asked

Is this a conspiracy or is there strong merit to the accusation?

there is no conspiracy and there is no strong merit to the accusation as has been explained many times to you already. the only conspiracy is whether you opened the thread in this forum to avoid moderation in the Current Affairs or Politics forum. you must have known the thread would be shut down almost immediately if posted there. or perhaps you posted it here to provide a space for users banned in other forums to "discuss" the topic. how about that for a conspiracy?

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783146#Comment_118783146

That’s very disingenuous.I asked it on the Russia thread and got attacked. I’m in the conspiracy forum and you think it would of been treated with more respect in the political forum?

There is no safe place to ask these sort of questions because you and others are convinced if somebody is asking it they must be a Putin bot/apologist or an anti vaxxer.

Asking if the USA played a role in rising hostilities between Ukraine and Russia that’s ultimately led to where we are at is not excusing Putin. It’s just not.

I think of it like egging on a small boy to take on a bully who is much bigger then him. I wouldn’t turn around and say the bully wasn’t doing anything wrong because somebody else was encouraging the bullied child to stand up for himself. But I would wonder if there was a better way to handle things as it’s getting escalated and the child was being bullied more and more.

I think somebody is going to have to sort out the Putin problem but at the moment everything is being put on the Ukrainians. They are paying for standing up to him. It’s their country being destroyed. It just seems so perverse to be “celebrating” a victim getting slowly torn apart by a monster.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783209#Comment_118783209

You're not asking a question. You're implying the US caused this shooting war, by focusing on one tiny bit of politicking and ignoring all the historical stuff which is far more relevant.. and you're being called out on it.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783209#Comment_118783209

Not disingenuous in the slightest, the information is all there if you want to know

Maybe you genuinely aren't aware, but prior to this conflict, there have been many pro-Putin supporters and anti-Western types who propagated any related (or even unrelated) thread on this forum with their views. Now that Putin has made the decision to invade Ukraine, their views are much harder to support, so instead a few try to troll the threads. Mods see through this and bring the ban hammer down.

These posters always often give away their agenda with the usual red flags, e.g. "I'm just asking questions" to systematically cast doubt on any facts they don't like, or playing the "I don't get it" game when the facts are obvious and so on. They'll often play the victim card on top of it all. If you are unintentionally hitting those red flags, other posters may assume you are one of those posters.

All that aside, the blog you brought up, the video you linked, the earlier link you put in the Russia thread (Russell Brand I believe) are all symptoms that you aren't getting good info on the conflict. That seems to be the root cause of your issues. Therefore I just mentioned you should start on e.g. Wikipedia if you want to get a better grasp on the facts.

silliussoddius

Russel Brand has a video on the conflict?

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783294#Comment_118783294

I am not one of "these posters". I am not banned from any forum. I do not promote pro putin propaganda. I do not promote Anti Vaxx support. I do not have an agenda, I started a thread here and you guys are all hostile to anything. These are all things some of you have labelled at me (or implied on some level), if you had just started responding to me with the slightest bit of respect (not presuming I have an agenda), this could of been a more interesting thread

I have posted many thousands of times on boards , I guess I incorrectly assumed that if people were going to accuse me of things they would at least look back at some of my posts history to see if it checks out.

Even that poster bringing up the Russell Brand video that was simply about Propaganda, shows how blinkered people are in this place. If I post one video (out of 17000 posts), the implication is that I watch him all the time and thus must share every crazy idea he has , this is the modern way of trying to "win" arguments. Dont discuss whats been discussed, try to discredit the poster personally and attach them to a fringe group who lack any credibility.

I have enjoyed many an argument and discussion on topics over the years, but its just getting worse and worse in here.

I dont really expect any of you to learn anything from this engagement, but after I have cancelled my account, you might consider some self reflection. I am not closing my account because of you, its because I am fed up arguing with people when I am not looking for an argument and they just cant actually step back from their emotions, listen or read what's being written by a poster without seeing it as something to attack or thank.