Builder gone with final payment or Certs.

fliball123

Hi all,

Quick question my brother got an extension completed there a few months ago. He kept 5% aside for 3 months to do a snag list and on the delivery of certs, like electrics, plumbing, beams, septic tank and also from his engineer to sign of for completion. Issue he is having is the builders phone numbers is no longer in service and he has tried to contact him and it seems he has emigrated to Austrailia. Does anyone know if someone else can certify the work?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058236733/builder-gone-with-final-payment-or-certs

Highly unlikely especially if it went through the BCAR process.

It’s possible the builder is avoiding you/your brother here as he thought you were billing him for the electricity the builder may have used on the site based on your other thread.

Dudda

Check if the building was submitted for BCAR. To do this your brother would have had to create an account on the BCMS at the start of the project and click on links he received accepting the role of building owner. He's also have had to sign and return a few forms to the architect.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118766627#Comment_118766627

My brother did not have any interaction with BCAR. So what does this mean for him?

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118765487#Comment_118765487

He didnt even get the chance to argue the point about the electricity so its not that. He looks to have emigrated and we cant get a hold of him. So we are up the swanny with regards to the certs.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772309#Comment_118772309

Did the extension need planning?

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772938#Comment_118772938

It did the planning was granted for it

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118773929#Comment_118773929

Then they should have lodged a Commencement Notice online through the BCMS.

Your brother would have having to create an online account and sign some forms and accept their role as building owner.

Who was their professional advisor for the works (architect/engineer/surveyor)?

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774032#Comment_118774032

They had an architect for the original drawings for the build but that was as far as his involvement went then the builder sorted everything from the build, electrics, sparks and said he would provide the certs.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774679#Comment_118774679

Ok, hindsight is always clear but that was a bad move unfortunately.

A builder cannot provide Certs of compliance with planning and building regs.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118775256#Comment_118775256

OK so is there any way around this issue the builder did say he had an engineer who would be giving a cert of compliance and completion but he have no idea who that was?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118775374#Comment_118775374

Call some engineers, architects etc now and see will any take a chance on him.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781081#Comment_118781081

Thanks for your feed back Gumbo but legally can someone else issue certs for work they have not had any input into?

C. Eastwood

Fliball123

Retain a Chartered Building Surveyor and they should be able to provide a Certificate of Compliance with Planning and the Building Regulations.

They may have to state on the Certificate that a number of items were not complied with such as if a Commencement Notice was not submitted etc.

I always find the Local Authority Enforcement Officers very helpful in giving advice on some of the issues you have.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785013#Comment_118785013

Thanks for the advice, have you any idea of the costs involved?

C. Eastwood

fliball123

i can only give you a ball part figure of €1,000.

get a budget estimate from the surveyor before you retain them.

cost will depend on the time it will take to do a survey of the completed building works, and to inspect the planning application submitted at the Planning Dept Office, etc. and they must also deal with the problem of no Commencement Notice granted.

this will be a bespoke Cert of Compliance so the Surveyor can put in exclusions and also state what are not in compliance with the Building Regulations and Planning.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787731#Comment_118787731

He has the notice of commencement.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788117#Comment_118788117

Who submitted that commencement notice application, and who signed the necessary documents if your brother didnt do it?????

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788220#Comment_118788220

His name is down as the building owner he only has it on email so no physical signatures?

C. Eastwood

its great that the Commencement Notice was obtained.

Therefore your brother as the client should have received an email from BCMC (Building Control Management System) and had to log in and confirm that he is the Client.

The Builder also got an email from the BCMS, and had to confirm that he is the Builder.

The person who set up the BCMS would be a Building Surveyor or Chartered Engineer or an Architect. You should be able to get the name of the professional who commenced the BCMS and obtained the Commencement Cert from the Local Authority Building Control. You will need to have the Commencement Cert with all the details.

The professional who obtained the Commencement Cert will have their contact details in the BCMS and you could contact them and they may be willing to issue a Cert of Compliance.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788773#Comment_118788773

as youre saying there are no certificates currently, im going to assume it was an "opt out" BCMS commencement notice application.

therefore your brother should have signed documents to that effect, or at least given permission for another to sign on his behalf.

if someone signed those documents without your brothers knowledge there there may be big trouble

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792421#Comment_118792421

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790241#Comment_118790241

I may not be explaining this right. So I will try to. He got a job done agreed a % 3 months on from job completion the engineer who is supposed to sign off was supplied by the builder the gobsh1t never got his name. Now the builder seems to have emigrated to Australia no sign of him and he has no certs. He has a notice of commencement he is down as the owner but the builders company is also on the document. I hold my hands up and I dont understand the full gravity of this situation. What he needs to know is can he get a different chartered surveyor/engineer or even the original architect who he got plans drawn by to get the certs he needs. I dont know what an "opt out" BCMS commencement is? The builder supplied the engineer there is no mention of the engineers name on it just the builders company name. Sorry if this confusing

C. Eastwood

Fitball123.

To get a Commencement Certificate 4 persons must log in to the BCMS. The client, the builder, the designer and the Assigned Certifier. Each party must register and accept their role before it will allow continuation.

The names of the 4 persons are stated in the documents and you can get details from the Local Authority Building Control

Your brother would have chosen the Opt Out Option. €30 was paid and the Commencement Notice was issued a few days later by the BCMS. End of BCMS process.

Opt Out Option means that your Surveyor will produce a bespoke Cert of Compliance with the Building Regulations and Planning.

Not opting out is an expensive option and in the end the Certificate of Compliance is issued by the BCMS.

Yes you can retain any Surveyor or Engineer or Architect to provide the necessary Cert of Compliance.

Gumbo

The commencement notice can be obtained online through the bcms.

tell your brother to log in, and he will see it under his notices.

C. Eastwood

Fliball123

If you can find the details of your brothers Commencement Certificate on the site below, you will get the Designers name and the Engineers name and details.

https://nbco.localgov.ie/en/bcms/search?type%5B0%5D=1338&f%5B0%5D=field_notice_type%3A1338

Go down to the end of the open page on the website and select your County Council, and search for your details as shown on the Commencement Cert

You can get the engineers details and contact him and ask him if he is willing to furnish you with a Cert of Compliance.

if he refused - retain another Surveyor.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796432#Comment_118796432

Just to update you all here. My brother has got a different chartered Engineer/architect who will do him a certificate of opinion of compliance for both building regs and the planning. So it looks like he is sorted he just wanted documentation in case his kids ever sold up. Can anyone let me konw if he is doing the right thing?

C. Eastwood

fillaball123

Yes.

It is very important to have a Certificate of Compliance with the Building Regulations, and Planning.

This will be required when the house is being sold.

Regards

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835701#Comment_118835701

Thanks all for your valuable input. Boards is a great tool for info when your a complete novice at something

C. Eastwood

filiball123

Thanks for your kind words.

Delighted to be of help to you.

Kind Regards

C.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836359#Comment_118836359

Can you tell me if the OPINION on compliance as apposed to compliance is still valid for selling?

C. Eastwood

filbal123

Thats perfect

An Opinion on a Certificate of Compliance with Planning and the Building Regulations, will be required for the works carried out, by a Purchasers Solicitor, if your brother decides to sell his house.

That’s all you require. This is what your Engineer /Architect will give to you.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118844206#Comment_118844206

He is forming an opinion based on a visual non obtrusive survey. He will confirm no involvement during the building works and the cert will have this at the bottom (or should have).

It means nothing and is basically a piece of paper to get through the conveyance process.

C. Eastwood

Gumbo

What else do you expect a Construction Professional to do.

Firstly they must have a Professional Qualification. They can only certify what is visible, and must ensure that everything that is visible is in Compliance with the Building Regulations and Planning - and provide written Certification of same, and provide Professional Indemnity Insurance to cover the Certificate for a Statutory period of 6 years, and can be sued and deemed negligent if something that is Certified is not in compliance.

Without this Certification the Conveyancing may fail.

If Clients want an Opinion on all of the works, they should retain a Professional before the works commence.

If the client ops out of the Building Control Management System (BCMS) they will get an Opinion on Compliance.

If the Client is building a dwellinghouse. and don’t wish to get an Opinion on Compliance, the Client can choose to not opt out, and they will obtain a Certificate of Compliance which cannot contain the word “Opinion”

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118844285#Comment_118844285

Mr Eastwood thanks for you advice. If I ever meet you for real the first couple of rounds are on me :)

C. Eastwood

Filibal123

Thank you again and I’m on for the rounds😂😂🍺🍺

Kind Redards

C.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118844608#Comment_118844608

So are we opening up works to inspect sub floor build up, structural connections and bearing?

drainage runs ??

My original comment is correct, it will be an opinion based on a visual survey with many caveats about not being involved during the construction. Fliball will not be able to sue the anyone as the guy providing the cert will have confirmed it’s a visual inspection only and it appears to comply with the regulations as stated.

Nothing wrong with that, it’s a conveyancing cert. Happens every day.

No idea why your referencing the different types of CN’s here, we’ve been through that already and are irrelevant.