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Planning permission - local needs

  • 05-03-2022 10:41pm
    Registered Users Posts: 17 Not for Long

    I've recently returned to my rural homeplace after living overseas and wanting to buy a site and build a new house. I also recently inherited a dilapidated old house on 1acre but do not want to live on that land.

    If I was to put in a planning application for a new build would the fact that I inherited this other structure hinder my application from a local needs perspective?


  • Registered Users Posts: 502 ✭✭✭ mike_2009

    I don't see how the two are connected? From the planners point of view anyway. You're just going to buy a new site subject to planning permission. A pre planning meeting would be useful as would understanding the county development plan and enlisted a good Architect familiar with the particular council you are dealing with, all points I'm sure you're following up already. Not heard of any tales of land registry searches by planners myself....

  • Registered Users Posts: 31,568 ✭✭✭✭ Penn

    Most local needs forms will include a question asking if you own property.

  • Registered Users Posts: 17 Not for Long

    Thanks for the reply!

    As per the County Development Plan, one of the 3 required criteria for planning is that I have a 'local rural housing need'. Definition here:

    "An applicant who satisfies a ‘Local Rural Housing Need’ is defined as a person who does not or has not ever owned a house in the surrounding rural area (except in exceptional circumstances) and has the need for a dwelling for their own permanent occupation."

    The way I read it, prematurely inheriting a dilapidated old house may disqualify me but it depends on if the definition means an actual lived in building.

  • Registered Users Posts: 31,568 ✭✭✭✭ Penn

    Considering you haven't lived in the house and if it's not currently in a liveable condition, it may not count as much as it otherwise would. However, they may instead push for you to renovate the old house. Hard to know. You will have to list it on the form though. Not answering truthfully can result in the the application being invalidated.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭ elperello

    You will need to determine whether the old house is a "habitable dwelling".

    Does it have a roof, water and an ESB connection?

    If not and it is a derelict building it should not count in terms of satisfying your housing need.

    If it is just a run down house that you could live in you will have the problem as outlined in other posts.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17 Not for Long

    It is definitely not habitable.

    No water, sewage, or ESB connection and no property tax being paid. As a derelict building it definitely does not satisfy my housing need.

    I wonder if the council would push to have me build where's there a structure rather than on a green field, citing that I already own a property, albeit one in a bad condition.

    The way the county development plan reads leaves it up in the air. I'll follow up with an architect to see what they're take is.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭ elperello

    Sounds like you have a bit of land with a shed.

    You are taking the right road seeking professional advice.

    A meeting with planners should clarify matters.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,622 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

    Are you watching fuel prices? Are you sure you want to choose an unsustainable lifestyle where you need a car every time you leave the house? Every school run, every pint of milk from the shop, every couple of pints, every play date?

  • Subscribers Posts: 38,356 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat

    this argument is rendered void with the advent of fossil fuel free cars.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,622 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

    Not really, no, given the environmental cost of manufacturing and disposal of electric vehicles, and the considerable pollution of brake pad particles and tyre particles.

    Electric vehicles are far from pollution free.

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  • Subscribers Posts: 38,356 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat

    i didnt say they were.

    you tried to equate fuel costs for being a reason against rural living. Im saying with the advent of fossil free vehicles that argument becomes negated.

    we are moving to all electric vehicles, so the pollutants from the fuel is greatly diminished, and the pollutants from the creation of the electric car, and its ancillary parts are every bit as applicable to urban living.

    the main stay of the argument against rural living over the last two decades has been the pollution argument, now that that argument is being reduced on a daily basis, those against rural housing are trying to move the goal posts. If the argument seriously comes down to rural cars using their brake pads more, then you can consider the argument moot.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,622 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

    You don’t get to tell me what I should consider. You may choose to bury your head in the sand and pretend that everything is hunky dory because we’ve gotten a shiny new EV, but they still pollute.

    And as I’ve heard repeatedly in recent days in fuel price discussions, rural dwellers end up having more cars per household than urban dwellers, so it is far from moot.

    The harm done by this kind of development goes way beyond pollution. We have destroyed many rural towns and villages by enabling this kind of development.

  • Subscribers Posts: 38,356 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat

    I wouldn't dare assume to tell you want to consider, as its clear in your posts you are incapable of considering anything beyond your bias.

    and i know many a rural community destroyed by urban commercialisation. Rural life essentially forced to close down due to the movement of the population from the rural areas to towns and cities. Post office, shops, pubs.. all forced to close due to the commercialisation of multinational hyper markets on the outskirts of towns. Governmental policy to consolidate services in urban city settings only. Decentralisation being an unmitigated disaster.

    we have seen from the pandemic that urban living is not fit for purpose. When everyone in the urban space has to use its scare facilities it collapses, green areas are not big or diverse enough. Anyone doing the daily commute from the satellite towns around Dublin will tell you what a nightmare it constantly is, where a fall of rain can add significant commute time, where they miss their childrens development because both parents are gone from 7am to 6 pm daily to afford the ridiculous 1/2 million euro mortgage on their 4 bed semi in some non descript estate in an equally non descript town, with strangers raising their kids for them in creches that costs as much as their mortgages do.

    If thats the utopia that is on offer to stop rural development, then nah thanks, you can keep it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭ Coddle4dinner

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭ elperello

    The OP is returning from abroad to his homeplace.

    He posted here looking for advice re. planning so presumably he has decided to live in the area he comes from.

    He is most likely well aware of the pros and cons of rural living.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,622 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

    Except that you literally did tell me what I should consider; “then you can consider the argument moot.”

    I don’t quite recall any collapse of civilisation in the suburbs during Covid. It was a bit boring doing the same walk within the 2km, but nothing collapsed around me.

    Have you put two and two together and worked out why the shops and pubs are closing? Because no one lives in the town. Everyone lives in their own McMansion, and drives to the retail park on the outskirts. It is this kind of planning that is destroying rural towns and villages.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,696 ✭✭✭ Dr Turk Turkelton

    Not an expert in particular on urban or rural living but I know there is a village missing its idiot somewhere close by😂

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭ whippet

    that isn't correct.

    I'm in a rural community and it is bustling with life and even more so since lockdown. Local farm shops and cafe's thriving, small enterprise hub with co-working facilities, more people volunteering in the sports clubs ... and the pub has a new lease of life.

    Best move I ever made was escaping the suburbs and moving out to the countryside 10 years ago.

  • Registered Users Posts: 31,568 ✭✭✭✭ Penn

    People have always built in rural areas, and over the last few years most small villages and towns have had small or medium estates built and populations increasing.

    Larger houses in rural areas, their energy requirements are offset by the increased regulations regarding energy usage. There has also been a curtailment on rural housing with Local Needs being enforced more strongly. This is assessed as part of the application to ensure there is a genuine need.

    Shops and pubs in towns are struggling due to high rents, higher costs and overheads, and increased home comfort (eg. Netflix etc meaning people more likely to stay in). Most people aren't going to pubs as often, because most people aren't going to pubs as often. People building in the countryside isn't the cause of that, nor would stopping it be the solution.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,622 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

    So I won’t be seeing loads of derelict shop fronts and streets full of charity shops this summer, good to hear.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭ whippet

    depends on where you are looking I suppose - plenty of boarded up shops around the retail units in the suburbs.

    I can understand why some people want to live on top of each other in a nondescript 3-bed semi surrounded by concrete and token grass areas - but for me I'd much prefer the open countryside.

  • Registered Users Posts: 31,568 ✭✭✭✭ Penn

    That's happening in large towns and cities too, ones surrounded by large housing estates and public transport.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭ whippet

    as for local needs - I think you will need to speak to those who have experience dealing with the local authority - they will be best placed to advise

  • Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭ iColdFusion

    Back on topic 😄

    OP you will need to chat with some locals who have built recently, go onto the online planning portal for your county to look at the correspondence for other applications in the area for info plus the contact details of an architect doing applications who can give you a steer.

    Unless you have come home to take over the family farm you are likely to struggle with justification of your local needs but it is almost entirely down to the opinion of the planner you get.

    If I were you I'd be selling off that derelict house fast because it looks bad that fixing it up and living there is below you but you claim to have a housing need and you need to prepare some good sob story to feed the council because it sounds like you have to money to buy in a town if you wanted.

    Personally I wouldn't be going for a pre-planning meeting until I had my story straight, you don't get to change it later!