New A2 House Is Freezing!

frankiekk

Hi 

Hope all's well? We moved into our new build in October, and the house was absolutely freezing all winter. The heating comes on and works well, but after about 30 mins it's freezing again. The thermostat is always around 14-18 degrees without the heating on and there's draughts and cold air everywhere.

We've been back and forth with the developers for over 3 months now and they don't seem to know or care anymore. The house is on a hill, so they've told us we should expect it to be cold. Its suppose to be an A2 house. We've had the the window supplies out to look at windows and ventilation lads in too, and they say all is fine on their end, but they also say something is definitely wrong. 

We just got a hygrometer in and the Humidity is also 16%. We hear its suppose to be between 40%-60%?

We've given up on the developer, so looks like we'll need to do it ourselves. Would there be any experts/consultants out there we can contact?

Furze99

What sort of heating system is in it? And how is heat distributed around the house? Who certified it? Are the draughts caused by the ventilation system or coming in around doors/ windows? 16% humidity must be wrong - sure you'd be getting desiccated with that. If the house is well sealed and insulated my non expert thinking would be pointing at the ventilation/ heat recovery system assuming one installed.

brokenangel

Is it A2W heat pump? If so why is temp at 14-18? Normal temp for house would be 20 degree or so. Or am I picking that up wrong?

also my brothers have heat lumps, they don’t turn off, it’s keep going all winter.

Del2005

If you're close to Dublin the libraries have home energy monitoring kits. Try to get one to see if you can see any problems.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-libraries-to-stock-kits-to-test-home-energy-use-1.2990116

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058236007/new-a2-house-is-freezing

Get an air tightness test and ber test done independently yourself. Might be worth explaining to the technician your problem so he knows to give it a proper test and not just a box ticking exercise.

If results aren't right I'd be back onto your solicitor.

I'm on my 2nd A3 rated house and the radiators should not heat a house in the same way an older radiator does. They're only supposed to be luke warm and give an ambient temperature, which should be all that is needed in an A rated house.

frankiekk

It's a gas heated house, heated with rads. No idea if machine is broke or what but it says 16%. That's the problem really, no idea what we're doing, so looking for any recommendations for who could help us.

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738004#Comment_118738004

Thanks Del2005, yeah we got one of those and it's showing us a few problems.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738069#Comment_118738069

If the builders not acting on the issues then it could be time to get legal advice. A new A2 house shouldn't be freezing.

ongarite

How is the home ventilated?

Hole in wall in each room with a grill that lets fresh, cool air in?

Trickle vents in the windows?

MHRV system with vent in ceiling?

What orientation is the house main rooms facing?

Based on your complaint, I would guess west or north west facing?

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738004#Comment_118738004

They have them in libraries outside Dublin too!

https://www.meath.ie/council/council-services/libraries/home-energy-saving-kits

https://droghedalife.com/news/council-launches-home-energy-savings-kits

https://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/local-news/293016/home-energy-saving-kits-available-to-borrow-in-local-libraries.html

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738055#Comment_118738055

Does each room have separate thermostats?

What temperature are you heating the house to?

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738157#Comment_118738157

Ventilated with Air Inlets: https://www.aereco.com/products/air-inlets/eht/

No idea what an MHRV system is! Facing west.

homewardbound11

Regardless of all an A2 rated house should hold its heat much longer than 1/2 an hour . Sounds like air tightness issues .

even with massive cold bridges the decrement delay of temperature wouldn’t be as fast as 20 minutes

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738178#Comment_118738178

House is set to 21 degrees. But the heating is fine. When it's on, the house is warm, but 20-30 mins later it's cold again so it's escaping somewhere.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738216#Comment_118738216

To lose heat that quickly you have to have huge gaps. You said you got the kit from library. What did it show?

I have an old house, when I moved in it had nearly no insulation, build in 80s and it didn't lose heat that quick.

Do you have a temp gauge in the room to show it losing heat? like I use Drayton Wiser and I can put a temp into the room. It shows the exact temp in the room. The library kit had oene as well, did you monitor how long it took to drop temp in a room with doors closed etc?

ongarite

Is your home on its own or part of a large development with many identical units?

If the latter, have you talked with your neighbours to see if they have the same issues?

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738257#Comment_118738257

Yes four on the same street have same issues.

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738226#Comment_118738226

We've bought thermometers for every room. You can see the drop.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738370#Comment_118738370

Ok but how long does it take to drop a degree

20-30 mins to get cold after heating would suggest a window open to let that much heat out

mickdw

I know I'm specifying mechanical heat recovery and ventilation across the board on one off larger builds yet alot of estates builds are still using wall vents.

Personally, I don't agree with the old style wall vent when dealing with an A rated house as the heating system typically isn't up to dealing with such uncontrolled airflows.

Mechanical ventilation is balanced, controlled and recovers heat as air is exchanged.

Another issue is that in housing developments, only a percentage of houses are required to be air tested while all one off houses are air tightness tested. This surely results in very poor standards of detailing and construction (thrown together).

If the heat can do the job when on, I'd suggest you problem is airtightness and uncontrolled ventilation.

blackbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738189#Comment_118738189

Quotation from your link "A closing device and an airflow controller can be used to protect from cold weather and strong winds.".

I presume you have them closed.

MHRV is mechanical heat recovery ventilation.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738842#Comment_118738842

It’s only 5 houses so I would expect they all got tested

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739482#Comment_118739482

I read it that 5 houses on the street have issues not that there's 5 houses in the development. Are BER tests in developments done on random properties?

OP since this is affecting more than 1 property it looks like the builders have made a massive mistake in construction. I'd be talking to your neighbours and looking to get a professional survey done on the houses. If they are loosing heat that fast there is something major wrong and who knows what else they did wrong. My parents have a 70s house with no insolation and that doesn't loose heat that quick.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739557#Comment_118739557

I read it that it was a small development of 5 houses :-) one of us is right

You are correct in terms of heat loss, my house was 80 bugalow with zero insulation and it didnt lose heat like that. Previously I had a 70 house in Dublin, start semi....single pane windows etc and it held heat better.

Has to be serious issue to drop heat like that.

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739471#Comment_118739471

Yeah they're closed. The company called out too and said it can't be down to vents. The holes are too small. Even without the vent (so if it was literally just a hole) it'd take at least an hour for the whole house to lose the heat.

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739557#Comment_118739557

Thanks Del2005, yeah I think I'll be contacting the others and getting someone out. But any idea who to ask? Can see there's a lot of options out there (BER Consultants, Air Tightness Tests, Therminal Imaging etc.) and they all cost a few hundred €. So don't know where to start!

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739716#Comment_118739716

I would get it assessed as if i was selling and say nothing about the problem... it is is compulsory (i think) to do this when selling a property so the person doing the test need not know... Get someone from a bit away as the locals will all know each other and may flag something in advance... You can compare with the original BER rating...

iColdFusion

I don't think another ber report is going to help you as that will just be based on the plans of what's supposed to have gone into your walls, thermal bridge details etc, I'm going to guess the house is timber frame so you should request the air tightness report from the builder, they have a legal requirement to achieve a minimum air tightness and if you can't get it consider getting your own one done.

Timber frames are very dependant on good workmanship and air tightness sealing or else your internal walls are venting directly to the external facade, less of an issue with older houses as you had block inside and out, hard to build an internal wall that stays standing with gaps in it!

Don't forget you have building control too, send your address to your local council dept and ask then to chase up that all the proper documents and test reports have been uploaded as part of BCMS, an engineer should have checked and signed off on the installation of insulation, etc

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739716#Comment_118739716

No idea who to contact but I'd definitely be getting the air tightness checked as a 1st step. As I said my parents are in a 70s house with no insulation and some drafts and that doesn't loose heat that quickly.

Another thing to check is that the A2W system is configured correctly. If you are loosing heat that fast it could pulling the heat from your home.

Henry Ford III

Get a proper and independent BER done. If it's not up to the A2 standard talk to your solicitor.

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118740387#Comment_118740387

I don't think this will help, this will only record what should be there, not an actually assessment of whether it was built to standard.

What part of hte counry are you in?

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745227#Comment_118745227

We're in Kildare, was just going to Google BER accessor or something like that

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058236007/new-a2-house-is-freezing

The house is on a hill, so they've told us we should expect it to be cold.

Sorry, what? Isn't that the point of an A-rated home, that it's supposed to protect you from the outside environment?

You say there are draughts coming in, you need to see if you can find the source, i.e. the window frames, coming from under the skirting board.

16% humidity is so low I'd nearly think your equipment is faulty.

I think you need a solicitor.

Cuddlesworth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739716#Comment_118739716

At this point BER anything is a waste of money.

A tightness test is where they seal off the obvious sources of air loss(vents) and should have been done on the house by the builder but I guess you can't really trust that was done. I'd start here.

Thermal Imaging, which would show where the heat is going, giving you a idea of location or locations of heat transfer.

This should really be combined with somebody who is willing to start ripping down parts of walls to find out what the actual problem is, everything else says there is a problem and where it is.

Honestly, you would have to imagine with that level of heat loss that they forgot to put some element in or just plain choose not to due to cost. Like insulation with has shot up in price in the last year.

Alkers

I haven't used them personally and I dont know if he posts here but I know of the owner of this site from another forum and a suspect his is exactly the kind of expertise you need http://www.rebelenergy.ie

Might be a bit far to travel also

Tefral

OP as someone in the game and who is involved in alot of house building. There is a provisional BER done on a house Type and then a final BER. However if all the houses are the same they can just test that particular house type and apply the BER to the rest. A BER test will actually tell you nothing new.

Is your house timber framed? If so a lot of these houses have crap Thermal Mass as they are well insulated but have no areas to store heat when its on and release back in when the surrounding room temp drops lower so that might be one thing. However, even with a house with say low internal thermal mass, you shouldn't be losing heat that quickly. I would engage an independent assessor to do a blower door airtightness test and check what you are getting. Your result should really be below 5 Air Changes in an Hour. Ask this person also to do some thermal imaging behind toilets and around windows to see what is happening.

Document everything....

MicktheMan

OP, this is not a BER issue but rather a specific heat loss issue, likely air tightness (lack of) and these issues are generally replicated across similar houses in a development. Imo, your course of action should start with an independent heat loss survey (air tightness test plus thermal imaging) which will pinpoint what and where the issue(s) is. Perhaps get together with other home owners with the same issue and share the info / cost.

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118745293#Comment_118745293

Yeah exactly, we were fuming when he said its on a hill! We did buy another humidity tester and it's looks better, it's around 40% so that's one thing solved! We got therminal leakage gun thingy and it looks like the windows are a big problem, so looks like a air tightness test could prove they're not fit for purpose?

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118747980#Comment_118747980

Yeah its timber frame. I've a feeling they cheaped out on the windows, therminal leakage radar showing a drop and around it, but the window people have been out to "tighten them" twice. Might just be sh!t windows not able for the hill.

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118748461#Comment_118748461

Probably nothing to do with the windows but the air tightness sealing and detailing for the timber frame, window sill, cavity, etc around them.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118740387#Comment_118740387

A BER will show up nothing as the person doesn't really investigate apart from what is able to be seen. If the owner doesn't see it the BER cert guy won't

A heat loss survey or something similar would work, if multiple houses all require it contact suppliers and get a group deal. If the issues are identified then you have come back on the builder

Cuddlesworth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118748461#Comment_118748461

You would feel the draught around them in high winds if they were not sealed properly. Thermal bridging from outside is expected around them to, to a extent. A expert in the field would have some concept of whats normal and what's not.

frankiekk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755862#Comment_118755862

Had the window fitters in twice to look at them. The draught around them was actually blowing out candles in December. They're a little better now.

spaceHopper

Getting a BER is useless it looks at how the house is constructed on paper and takes very few if any measurements

I would get an architect who knows about green builds working on it. A visit from one would probably cost the same a BER, getting a report would be more. I would also contact SEAI and ask them to do site visit. You want to get on top of this now as come May you won't have cold weather to show problem.

I'm in 60's demi-d which we extended and upgrades to a B3, it's never 14 unless it cold out and we have windows open upstairs and the back door open. Something is very very wrong here.

Anything4883

Gas, no MHRV, rads, bought yer own Thermostats?

Sorry, But this doesn't sound like an A2 rated designed spec. Are you sure the BER states A2 rated?

mickdw

The lowest spec I've seen recently on a new build to achieve A2 was air to water heating with wall vents and rads with room stats all over. Insulation details unknown on that one but nothing special as far as I could work out.

frankiekk

@Anything4883 Yeah got it off the solicitor yesterday, says A2. Got the surveyors email so going to email now and see if he actually did it or just did one house in the estate and assumed the rest were the same

cruizer101

I'd be very surprised if a house could reach A2 with having a gas boiler and standard enough air vents, I do think at some point could be worth getting a new BER.

Tbh in this day and age no new house should be getting planning for having a gas boiler.

That still doesn't explain the heat loss though. Even a BER C house shouldn't lose heat that quick.

Heat loss survey I think is what you need, when the heating is on do the walls themselves feel warm or cold, timber frame decent insulation they shouldn't be cold to touch.

Sooner you can get a heat loss survey done or get an expert in the better, as easier to identify issues in cold weather.

Ottoman_1000

A new A2 rated house with a Gas boiler for heating, no MHRV, rads and substandard ventilation, something doesn't add up here! Also having a house build on a hill shouldn't make any difference. That's just bluff from the contractor. Getting a BER assessor out is also a waste of them as 95% of their inspection will be based of the plans and the specs on the material used to build the house. They don't really carry out any physical inspection or check build or construction quality. Get an terminal air tightness test and see where exactly you are losing your heat and go from there!

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758067#Comment_118758067

Well there's part of your problem anyway. Not rocket science, just sounds like crap attention to detail in construction.

You'd also wonder about the quantity & quality in terms of material in timber framed housing being constructed and how it'll be faring in 50 years time. Like many things in modern life, there's an expectation of planned obsolescence I think.

Deagol

My daughter moved into a supposed A3 rated home. I found immediately that the sewers aren't sealed! There's cold air pouring into the house in the kitchen via the sewer plus a rotten smell of course. Found a few other things that surprised me to. Heating is by normal rads with gas combi boiler ....sound familiar?

When I started to look into the rating I realised, they've installed 6x solar PV on the roof and that brings the rating up due to the simplistic way the BER system works.

OP, by any chance does your house have a load of solar panels?