Why are women exempted from conscription and national service in countries that have it?

Yoozername.

Several countries, even in the EU have mandatory national service. Austria, Finland, Cyprus, Greece and Switzerland (the latter obviously not being an EU member) all enforce mandatory national service and or army training on all healthy males, usually upon reaching their 18th birthday. Women are exempt but can join voluntarily should they wish.

Why are women exempt? If the argument is that “men are stronger”, that’s rubbish, besides, they are allowed to take up paid roles alongside their male counterparts .

The argument that “men make the rules doesn’t wash”, say that to the female prime minister.

Before anyone says the Swiss voted to keep it, the argument is weak. It was a vote that everyone was allowed to vote in as it was a democratic election and obviously you can’t exclude certain parts of the population from elections. A fairer poll would have been 1:Abolish for all 2:extend to women.

I can’t help but feel that if it applied only to women it would have been changed long ago now. The EU would have found it incompatible with equality.

Yoozername.

Finland also does NOT recognise self declarations of gender identity and you have to have reassignment surgery so identifying as female won’t even work.

EmmetSpiceland

You really don’t like women having a choice about anything, do you?

EmmetSpiceland

Perhaps I should have just ended that sentence after the word women.

newbie2

Women have to give birth to all the boys that will replace all the conscripts that are brown bread

DrumSteve

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118733228#Comment_118733228

This is it.

It's simple biology.

Israel have conscription for women.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118733225#Comment_118733225

Where did you deduce that?

You can’t compare Irish men voting in the 8th to Swiss women voting in the referendum to abolish conscription for men only.

Before the abolition of the 8th both men and women were tied into parenthood, now the ball is entirely in the woman’s court.

The outcome of the Swiss referendum wouldn’t have affected women whatsoever.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118733259#Comment_118733259

And? My point is in relation to all the other countries.

Pawwed Rig

Why is the argument that men are stronger rubbish?

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118733225#Comment_118733225

Women should have a choice on any given topic about wether they want equality in this instance…or not?

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735293#Comment_118735293

I don't think the words mandatory conscription and choice fit on the same sentence... it may they there be a campaign for equality on this but i doubt it... interesting conversation...

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118733228#Comment_118733228

When did we get parthenogenesis working for humans? Last time I checked it takes a man and woman to make a baby, not much good having loads of women if they can't get pregnant. Maybe if women where conscripted them less men would have to die so children can have 2 parents instead of a picture of a dead Father they never met.

Why do women only want equality on the easy things? Nice office job, need more women. Boat is sinking, women 1st. War, send the men....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735326#Comment_118735326

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You think a man's ejaculation requires the same time and effort as carrying a pregnancy, giving birth and caring for a baby?

helto

Let's get real here. Like rapists, it's not all men but it's nearly always a man. Not every war is started by men but it's nearly always men. Why should women have to die in wars caused by the fragile ego's of toxic men?

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735387#Comment_118735387

To use your own argument why should anyone have to die in wars caused by the fragile ego's of toxic men?

Unless you are suggesting that whole demographics should be punished for the actions of a minuscule minority. That would be a very dangerous avenue to go down and is the rationale behind all racism and bigotry.

Women have fought admirably hard to get the equality they deserve.

But I think I'd lose faith in humanity if women were forced to join the army and go to war.

That will always be a place for men only in my opinion. Whether that makes me a sexist pig is up to others but I'll never budge on that stance.

Irish_wolf

Simple biology. Much easier and faster to train a load of men to be fit enough to go to war. Women of course can be excellent combatants but the average female conscript would take a hell of a lot longer to train to even the level required for the entry requirements compared to training a man. They would also possibly require creatine and other performance enchancing drugs to actually see gains in a short period of time. Men typically just need food and rest. Sorry if this offends but testosterone is a helluva drug for physical performance.

Also 1 man can impregnate multiple women. Not ideal for the women but from a purely species survival stand point most men are expendable.

...Ghost...

Because the fight for equality is (as egotistical maniac Putin would put it) "a special women's operation".

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735416#Comment_118735416

This thread made me think i see when i travel abroad (Spain) to visit a family member who lives there... i noticed that women/men are far more equal. The example i give is people on community schemes like we have here... women and men do the same work and i seen women with shovels, wheelbarrows and paintbrushes...

Wonder if that kindof equality would work here... i don't think women should be conscripted but i do not see them wanting that kindof equality... it seems equality in the areas we want it in...

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735373#Comment_118735373

I never said being pregnant was easy. I said that women can't get pregnant on their own, no men means no babies.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735417#Comment_118735417

So why are women allowed to join voluntarily for paid roles and work equally alongside men for the same pay with reduced entry requirements.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735293#Comment_118735293

That wasn’t the Swiss referendum though.

The ref question was whether or not mandatory national service for men only should be maintained or abolished. Neither results would have impacted them.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735387#Comment_118735387

The war was NOT started by men, it was started by A man.

I assume you’ll be calling out toxic femininity because of the Magdalene Laundries? Nah, thought not.

Anyway. Anyone was has to resort to the “tOxIc mAsCuLiNiTy” to make a point has failed miserably in my eyes. Ironically, it’s usually women I see doing it.

I’ll be ignoring you from now on so I don’t have to read such drivel.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735537#Comment_118735537

And btw. I was referring to countries that don’t even get involved in war. Switzerland and Finland come to mind.

So why are men forced into military service or required to do alternative civilian service when women have no such obligation?

Irish_wolf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735513#Comment_118735513

Typically these volunteers would have a higher fitness standard than the average woman, a better attitude towards military life etc. than a randomly selected woman who was forced into the situation. I cant say for certain as I'm not military but I work in an industry that is very much dominated by men and has a lot of ex-air corps personnel (aviation maintenance). Apprenticeship classes here usually have 14-16 lads and 1 girl. These girls from my own personal experience would typically defy gender norms in terms of physical fitness, attitude, and desire for physical jobs, although this is not always the case. Why shouldn't they receive the same pay just because they dont have the same brute force of a man? We have lifting equipment, levers, and team work for that anyway. Accepting the biological reality of the situation (lower entry requirements for women only) and letting them in to the army anyway is going to have far more benefits for the army than a blanket ban, not every problem requires a hammer to solve. Men might have more natural physical strength (hence the higher standard required) but we can certainly be lacking in emotional intelligence compared to our female colleagues. Should I receive less pay because I'm much more likely to butt heads with my manager than a woman is? Of course not. People fill roles that suit them. I'm on the shorter and skinner side, so I get a lot of jobs that require me to access confined spaces or crawl through fuel tanks. Should the bigger fatter lads get paid less because they cant fit through the access hole? No they get assigned to jobs that suit them like wheel/brake changes, large component removal, structural repairs etc.

An army needs operators, technicians, engineers, communications and administrative personnel just as much as it needs heavy hitting combatants. Allowing women in to fill these positions by reducing the requirements (they would seriously limit the number of successful applications if women were expected to attain the male fitness requirements especially as women are still failing the new reduced requirements https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/05/10/nearly-half-of-female-soldiers-still-failing-new-army-fitness-test-while-males-pass-easily.html) will be far more beneficial than requiring women to attain the same standard as required for a man.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735387#Comment_118735387

Why should men have to die in a war started by one man? I’ll wait….

Cyclingtourist

Why ask Irish people this question?

Ireland is probably the only European country where neither men nor women have ever been conscripted even in wartime.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735703#Comment_118735703

Why do Irish feminists focus on female inequalities in far away countries and ignore inequalities much closer to home like I’ve pointed out?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735652#Comment_118735652

Men in Finland are not forced into military service. There are many exemptions so that it is not mandatory at all. Men can be exempted, the same way women are.

That's the country I am familiar with, in pretty sure other countries have exemptions too.

So, men are not actually forced into mandatory military service.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735754#Comment_118735754

What inequalities 'closer to home' are they ignoring?

You don't give any in the OP and I haven't the time to trawl through your other posts.

riffmongous

In Austria men can refuse too, but you must join a civil organisation instead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735754#Comment_118735754

Feminism is aimed at women.. naturally with men being the enemy, the oppressor, in competition for resources/rights/attention/etc.

Why would you expect feminists to advocate any worldview that doesn't paint men as being the problem that prevents/restricts the wonderful utopia that women could achieve without men being involved?

You're never going to get feminists acknowledging the involvement/responsibility of women in creating the societies and cultures that evolved. The matter of children being raised by mothers, taught by female teachers, the influence of wives over husbands, nuns in religious orders, etc is never going to be acknowledged as being relevant except where something positive comes from it.

That's just the way the world is. Women had no agency throughout history, and no influence over what happened. Ever seen the movie "The four feathers"? The shame/pressure directed at the guy who didn't want to go to war, both by his male peers, but also by his fiancée? It's rare that you'll see any acknowledgement that women could influence others, and might reinforce restrictive social norms.. except where it's dismissed with the focus resting entirely on that of the men.

That's not going to change.. There's enormous resistance to the idea that women, as a gender, be held responsible for what happens negatively in society. Much easier to blame "men".

Capt'n Midnight

It was found that in mixed units men would take greater risks to protect the women. So more casualties.

At the other extreme Paraguay lost 90% of it's male population during the War of the Triple Alliance 1864-1870,

Until warfare evolves to the point where carrying capacity is no longer relevant, we won't be seeing many frontline female soldiers. The equipment that soldiers must carry regularly is heavy, besides the problems of being able to carry a wounded soldier out of a conflict area. Most women aren't strong enough.. that's it really.

TBH I always wondered why we didn't see more women in tank corps.. their smaller size would be an advantage considering the space restrictions in many armoured vehicles.

frosty123

Because they'll just slow everything down, doing their hair up, putting on lippy ..asking comrades" does my bum look big in this"

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735387#Comment_118735387

Hahaha! We have a live one here folks.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735812#Comment_118735812

If a healthy man refuses military service he has to do alternative civilian service.

Women are exempt fully.

How is that not sexist?

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735815#Comment_118735815

I literally did. The post is about male only national service in mostly neutral European countries.

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735855#Comment_118735855

And women are fully exempt.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735373#Comment_118735373

Do men not care for babies?

HalfAndHalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735293#Comment_118735293

Kinda stops being equality if one side has a choice on what they want an equal share in and a veto on what they don’t.

Pherekydes

Nobody likes to see a pretty face with a bullet hole in it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736132#Comment_118736132

Do men breastfeed?

Do men stay at home looking after the baby for almost a year after birth?

In the overwhelming majority of cases, the mother is the primary carer.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736204#Comment_118736204

Men take extended leave from providing for the family to look after the baby in the first few weeks.

If the female in the partnership is pumping then men can wake up in the middle of the night to feed the baby breast milk while the female gets a well earned rest due to giving birth.

You do realise men aren’t monsters yes?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736227#Comment_118736227

Why would you assume that I think men are monsters? I wouldn't be married to one if I thought that was the case.

You cannot deny biology, the burden of pregnancy and childrearing falls mainly on the woman. There's more to it than giving bottles during the night.

I have plenty of male friends who try to do their fair share but the reality is that in every case the man works, and the woman takes maternity leave (which is not a holiday as some seem to think, it's exhausting and you don't have a moment to yourself). There are biological and societal reasons why this is the case.

In the context of this thread, do you think a woman in this situation should be sent away to war?

My original comment was in response to an extremely simplistic post claiming that "it takes a man and a woman to make a baby". There's a hell of a lot more involved in raising a child than the act of conceiving it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736153#Comment_118736153

Nope. Not going to call you a snowflake or a man-hater. Just very intolerant of others views.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736294#Comment_118736294

I don’t believe anyone should be sent to war but that’s a hell of a simplistic and niave view I’ll admit!!

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736325#Comment_118736325

Exactly.

Goalposts …. Meet shift.

Gas … meet light.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736325#Comment_118736325

Intolerant of sexist comments like "they'll be too busy doing their lippie". Yeah, absolutely.

Intolerant in general, no.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736398#Comment_118736398

another horribly misogynistic thread

Yup. That's remarkably tolerant of others opinions. What opinions were misogynistic? and no.. the lame joke was obviously just a joke, and hardly indicative of actual contempt/hatred of women.