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If Ukraine just allowed Russia to overtake their government.... ?

  • 03-03-2022 9:36pm
    Registered Users Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭

    Theoretically, what would it mean for the Ukrainian people?

    Change of culture, sure.

    But if they didn't go to war and their President basically said, "take the reigns, in exchange for foregoing violence".

    Would Ukrainian people be displaced as they're being?

    Putin wants control of their oil/gas reserves and prevent their NATO membership, so he'd get that.

    In physics we trust....



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,433 ✭✭✭touts

    Run and you'll Live. A while. And dying in your bed many years from now......

    Yes if Ukraine just surrendered they would become part of the new Russian Empire under Putin. Moldova would probably quickly follow. And Georgia. And the people would live. That's the dilemma the Ukrainian leadership have. Is it better to live under dictatorship or die defending freedom. In theory freedom always wins the debate. I wouldn't like to have to choose though.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,555 ✭✭✭✭AMKC

    I thought about this too. Put who wants to live under a Russian dictatorship. It would be basically giving up hope. Better to die free than die horrible under some dictatorship for doing something very minute.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.

  • Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭O'Neill


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,501 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout

    These are the final few tweets from the end of a very long and very interesting thread from last week.

    If the Ukrainians had just immediately submitted to the Russians they would have saved many lives but at a great cost to their collective spirit and the future of their nation.

  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]

    This is a key thing that needs to be accepted more, particularly EU politicians, that nationalism isn't an inherently nasty or undesirable trait. Without it Ukraine would likely be gone already. We can see the importance of the idea as Putin **** on about Ukraine not being a country or Russia and Ukraine being basically the same. If enough people thought that or were convinced of it they barely even would have needed to invade.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush

    So, pride?

    How do you characterize "mythos"?

    Spirit of the people?

    What is "spirit"?

    It seems like they're delaying the inevitable at the cost of huge bloodshed and unrest.

    In physics we trust....

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush

    It what way would their surrender have compromised the future of their nation?

    As mentioned in the other thread, Russia doesn't really want to absorb Ukraine, merely control it for resources and defense.

    In physics we trust....

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,289 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss

    "In what way would their surrender have compromised the future of the nation?".

    The notion of pride in a noble and refusal to surrender defeat is hardly a new concept to you? Fortress Masada, Spartans at Thermopalae, Braveheart, GPO1916, General Custer etc.

    It's quite likely that the events of this month become an equivalent signature event and source of pride in the future Ukraine, even if they ultimately lose badly.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush

    It's not new it's just baffling.

    Pride as a means to facilitate what?

    Defending the "spirit" of their people?

    This is a war of resources and defense measures.

    Death should not prioritize spirit, once a dudes soul has left his body for the "afterlife", spirit is no longer an applicable concept.

    In physics we trust....

  • Registered Users Posts: 22,233 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia

    If you're in the schoolyard and a bully threatens to beat you unless you give him your new pair of shoes. You can choose to fight probably still lose the shoes, but give the bully a bloody nose, or become the target of that bully, and every other bully forever, because he knows he can take what he wants at no cost to himself.

    In order to rise above the idea that the strong can always take what they want, you need people brave enough to fight for freedom from real oppression.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭_gir

    They would survive but live in fear like Russians, imagine Britain took over Ireland again and you had to worry about saying anything bad about brits or that complaining about something could lead to you or your family’s death.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,501 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout

    Not everything can be be accounted for in ledgers and casualty lists. Humans are emotional creatures. We thrive on myths and legends. There's a reason why tyrants often try and avoid making martyrs out of opposition figures - it's not because of empathy, no. It's because they fear the emotional reaction that this would create in those who oppose them. The 1916 Rising didn't have much popular support in this country up until the point at which the British foolishly decided to execute the leaders. The rage that that created resulted in the War of Independence and ultimately the independence of the 26 counties several years later.

    Ukraine may lose this war but they will not be defeated as a nation. Not after the way that they have fought. This will always be enemy ground for Russian soldiers.

    Not only that but the images of the atrocities that they have carried are resulting in far more punitive sanctions than would have resulted if they had taken Ukraine without a shot being fired. For example, in the first few days the EU couldn't agree to cut the Russians off from SWIFT but the guilt and disgust in watching the brave Ukrainians get slaughtered meant that that opposition dropped away country by country.

  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy

    My OH was born in the Soviet Union, and believe me if you had experienced it, you would not ever want to return to anything like it.

    No free speech, no democracy, little to no rights. Yeah, just let them roll in and impose their ideals on a population of 40m.

    Ukrainians don't have to remember that far back to remind themselves of what it used to be like when Moscow was in charge, hence almost everyone of them to a man is willing to die to ensure that does not happen.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8 nteytaa

    You need reminding -2014 the elected government of ukraine fell to a coup-

    russian language etc banned made illegal in a country where russian was very prominant due to their history.

    All the russian war memorials for the dead whom faught against hitler ---- Ukranian

    it seems history is being bastardized -saying the equivelent of cork had no role but wicklow are the only ones that fought the war

    re; rising against the english and so cork is to be removed from ireland. - just to suite an outside of ireland geo-political demand.

    the danger to ireland and eu citizens -the financial cost - the influx by more refugees (empathy sure help but why forced to help)

    Ukranian government forced to comply with minsk this conflict would not have expolded.

    ukranian citizens instead of becoming refugees stay and sort out their government -

    UNFORTUNATELY it is NOT their government - it is usa proxy and blind eye turned by eu politicians until

    as usual the proverbial hits the fan and the politicians point responsibility on russia\putin to hide their corruption and lies

    in allowing interference in a non eu country that is many thousands of miles away from usa.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Rawr

    Ukraine used to be a constituent "Republic" within the USSR itself much like the many "Republics" that also made up the USSR, and still make up the current Russian Federation.

    If Putin really has designs to restore the old Soviet Union, he'd probably plan for Ukraine to become the "Autonomous Democratic People's *Totally-Free* Republic of The Ukraine"...within the Russian Federation. Their actual autonomy would be gone, and they would live at the pleasure of the Kremlin and the Oligarchs who rule it with Putin.

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007

    The baffling bit is how you could come out with such garbage, given that you live in a country that would not even exist if past generations had not thought it was worth risking their lives to win it for you! Have you any sense of your heritage or Irish history? Is there anything about your life that you think would be worth fight for? Really, I'd be very interested to hear what is important in your life?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    The more Russia reveals its authoritarian stripes, the more each and every Ukrainian will ultimately decide it is better to keep fighting. It may sound glib;

    Is it better to die on ones feet, then live on ones knees - ?

    • the question is not static, as with every day, the degree to which one would be on ones knees, increases. The Russia of even last week, is NOT the Russia of today.

    Ukraine will fight, IMHO the die is cast. They will not surrender, nor should they. If you wish to argue that the invaded state, should surrender to the invader, to stop the invader murdering its citizenry - you make a fool of yourself. And where would such a neo-appeasement doctrine end? What will Russia want next???

    Have we not danced this tune before? and NO i am not advocating an invasion of russia - Putin is the Russian peoples problem, and i wish them well. But to paraphrase Patton. AT SOME POINT, someone will need to sit down with Putin. Show him where his border is, and give him 48hours to get back on the correct side of it - whether this happens before, or after this crisis, that is the only question


    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,798 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution

    Brand new profile with all their posts posting 100% pro Russian content. Not suspicious at all.

    On the topic at hand, the Ukrainians know what's in store for them if they surrender. At best, half the country will be carved off and subsumed into Russia (with 99% approval in a sham referendum held under Russian control). The remainder of Ukraine will become a Russian controlled puppet state. Ukrainian military, civic and political leaders will be killed. The Russians will seek to crush any political alternatives to the Moscow line.

    This isn't even some far fetched hypothetical, we can see it in Russia now. There's no freedom of speech. No freedom of protest. No political opposition. Any legitimate political threats to Putin are barred from election. If that doesn't work they are arrested and if that doesn't work they are killed.

    This will be replicated in Ukraine. Any pro Ukrainian media will be shut down. Any political party with a pro-Ukrainian stance will be banned. The same population currently laying down their lives to fight the Russians will apparently have an abrupt change of heart and vote 100% for pro-Russian candidates because all pro-Ukrainian candidates will be barred from standing.

    In the extremely unlikely event a pro-Ukrainian movement started in this new Ukrainian puppet state, you'll see the Russian army step up to prop up their pro-Russian leaders, just like we saw in Belarus in 2020 and Kazakhstan in 2022. It would guarantee that there will never again be an independent, sovereign Ukraine.

    The Ukrainians know this; they see what Russia is like, hence their choice to move closer to the EU. That's why they are willing to fight and die against the invaders. They have no chance of avoiding Russian control if they surrender. However, if they keep fighting they have a slim chance of making it an intolerable cost to Russia. The longer they fight, the more the west will row in behind them and isolate Russia. The longer they fight, the less "legitimacy" the Russian occupation has and the greater the likelihood that people in Russia will tire of the war.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech


    its a disgrace. And when you think that a true heroic dissenting voice- were it to take place today in Putins Russia - the poster could face 15 years in prison. Its a disgrace. And a testiment to Irish and European democracy that 'nteytaa' is ACTUALLY FREE to post this vile here.

    Be advised

    • you convince no one
    • you are blatantly posting falsehoods
    • if you are not actually being paid to post, i feel sorry for how warped your perspective is
    • In the long run, at some point in your life, i hope you deservedly feel shame for how you have conducted yourself

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

  • Registered Users Posts: 8 nteytaa

    Of course you know the eu is unaccountable to the eu citizens.

    if you dont want eu involved in a non eu conflict

    there is nothing you can do

    Wait 5 years and try elect new meps -

    you run gauntlet of (irish government full confidence in female minister until cannot hold on and resigns)

    becomes mep

    to c.daly whom many on boards derided whilst they have little idea whart she does for irish citizens

    becomes mep---

    again i have to remind you IF russia decides it does not like eu getting involved in non eu conflict then you are enemy

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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight

    In the Irish context it would be like rolling the clock back to when some of the survivors of the famine were still alive and re-joining the UK because they had conquered us in the past. We'd get the same civil rights as Northern Ireland had back then.

    We could aspire to maybe having the same power in Westminster than the SNP have now.

    Russian Duma passes law giving 15-year prison sentences for spreading ‘false information’ about military - Russian or Ukrainian prison means his risk of contagious diseases like HIV and TB

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    • you are a disgrace to the proud russians who are risking 15years in prison to offer an ACTUAL opposition voice
    • you pale in comparison to real opposition to this disgraceful war
    • you are a coward, not to stand up for human rights and self determination- you are a keyboard coward IMHO
    • you convince no one,

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭The Mighty Quinn

    Probably deviating slightly here... but in the (inevitable?) event that Russia do take Ukraine, what next?

    Does it exist as Ukraine anymore?

    Does it get absorbed into a USSR Mk2 type arrangement?

    Does it just get called Russia now with a border change on the maps?

    If Putin manages to take Ukraine, does he spend the next X many years fighting 'the West' to hold it?

    Does Putin then decide, okay, I want the Baltics back?

    There's probably a word of ignorance in those questions, but I'm trying to understand it all a bit more.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,251 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl

    They think the EU parliament has any significant role or say in what is going on, they are not worth engaging with (hint: it has almost nothing to do with them).

    Anyway, to the core question "why not just lay over and let it happen" - I would have thought centuries and centuries of history would have answered that question.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,501 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout

    I think CrabRevolution's post above (#19 in this thread) is as good a guess as any about what would happen under those circumstances.

    Lukashenko was pictured in front of an invasion map a few days ago that appeared to show the western quarter of Ukraine not being under Russian control. Therefore it is likely that we might end up in a post-WW2 Germany scenario with a hard border dividing "Free Ukraine" with a capital in Lviv from "Putinised Ukraine" with a capital in Kiev.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    My view on the worst case scenario -

    whether the Ukraine becomes

    • a satellite state (deJure independent, defacto Russian Satellite)
    • Partitioned/divided up
    • incorporated into Putins Russia (i will not refer to it as the Russian Federation anymore)

    The result will be the same. The Ukraine will cease to be an independent state. I believe the wests response should be

    • Deny recognition to any new Satellite puppet
    • deny recognition to any change in the border
    • refuse diplomatic recognition of any kind for said Satellite state
    • remain on diplomatic terms with the Ukraine as it exists today (no handing over of embassies to any Russian Satellite regime in Kiev)
    • Should Free Ukraine continue to exist within the territory of Ukraine Proper, we remain on full diplomatic terms with said site. Should it continue to exist as a government in exile, that is who we remain on terms with
    • at this point i would suggest breaking diplomatic terms with Putins Russia. seemingly we are waiting/in line with the rest of the EU in terms of breaking off relations. I suspect this would be the moment to pull the plug (see link below, my old IR lecturer interviewed in DCU)

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,259 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody

    That's exactly the problem Putin will have in Ukraine; the people of Ukraine are not going to simply shrug their shoulders a go "oh well" if conquered (I had a project and spent 6 months there shortly after the Crimea invasion, to say there will be resistance is an understatement and the anger over Crimea alone was to the point of people refusing to understand or speak Russian which they were fluent in). Putin would need to leave a permanent heavy military force that would be under constant attack from the local population. It will become Afghanistan 2.0 for them with constant losses and no way to "win" and his only way out will be to try to install a puppet dictator. The problem is the Ukrainians have already kicked out one such dictator before and the ukrainian army is not going to be loyal to the dictator forcing him to constantly have Russian soldiers there who don't want to be there to protect and supress for the dictator leaving it a money hole. The day the last Russian soldier gets kicked out and the revolution happens Ukraine will directly turn against Russia even harder than now and align with the west (along with all the thousands of soldiers and equipment now being moved to borders).

    In short Putin has managed to completely misjudge not only the West reaction but also the Ukraine reaction and this will be written as Putin's biggest failure rather than his crowning success that he was expecting. Ukraine will mark the biggest failure in his career and very possibly the reason that gets him kicked out of office.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8 nteytaa

    it was mentioned in putin country 15 years jail for speaking

    i havre to remind you of when "state fact" what happens in western so called democracys

    jail 175 years

    Julian Assange held for publishing FACT war crimes.

    YOU fail to place this as a balance to your attack on another country.

    (this is basically nazi propagander which seems has run riot as the western leaders have a situation blown up in their face because they failed to

    act in a democratic manner and ensure ukraine complied with minsk)

    SO the talks now -HOW can anyone claim ukraine will comply with what is agreed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭liamtech

    Report from Ukrainian journalist (confirmed official journalist on twitter)

    • "Proud Russian soldiers wage military operation on Neo Nazis" (in reality Russian Military directly shelling an apartment block)

    Nteytaa - you are either

    • A troll, with nothing better to do than post nonsense on a politics forum. In which case you make a fool of yourself and should be ashamed
    • A Russian (be it acting officially or otherwise) - in which case you are a disgrace, and a coward. Posting nonsense on an irish website, knowing full well that speaking the truth in Russia would result in Jail - you are a keyboard coward. while your countrymen are jailed for speaking out against this, you are content to remain here, acting as you are. You are a coward

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,259 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody

    @nteytaa no one believes you and your Russian slander agenda; Russia is a failed nation and we'll publish the truth of Putin being the biggest failure of a Russian leader. When he pulls out of Ukraine with the tail between his legs and thousands of dead soldiers who did not want to be there as his legacy along with the economically nuked Russian economy setting the country back over 30 years. Of course; that sentence would land me 15 years in Russia today showing exactly what a little scared bully Putin really is...