Ireland and Neutrality

Dinarius

Twice in the last century, with the exception of those who left Ireland to enlist, we have left it to others to defend our democratic rights, values and principles, while we sheltered behind our neutrality.

It may yet happen for a third time, given what’s happening in Ukraine.

Is our so-called “neutrality“ morally defensible?

Moreover, is it time to join NATO?

Discuss.

Wanderer78

the more military power there is in the world, the higher likely it is we ll engage in war, so im happy to extend our status, which isnt all that neutral really....

Dempo1

This Topic getting a lot of heated discussion on numerous Threads, personally I'm happy with our Status albeit not always clear what our neutrality means.

Shared this earlier on another thread, interesting read 😏

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0226/1283020-ireland-neutrality-ukraine-david-mccullagh/

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234995/ireland-and-neutrality

Joining the UK in WWII would have re-opened the civil war. Even in NI it was the US Army that garrisoned it. Also look at how the ratio of casualties vs rescued for Dunkirk for UK vs. French. Or the attack on Mers El Kébir or how Caen was flattened.

Even so a lot of food and people went to the UK, newspapers were censored, overflights were allowed and interned allied pilots escaped to the north like clockwork.

Irishaid is more cost effective than other countries foreign aid because we don't use it as a political weapon.

Besides aren't we part of the EU's Rapid Reaction Force ?

piplip87

I would like to see more cooperation between EU member states on defence. I'd have no problem Ireland joining a EU defensive force that protects other EU members incase of an invasion.

Easten

We should be part of some alliance, we simply are unable to protect the huge territorial waters which have become the playground for Russian Submarines.

Can't see it happening thought as we Irish have a soft underbelly who go cap in hand looking for help and support from the UK

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701999#Comment_118701999

we ll leave the 'hardness' to the manchildren of the world, while we try concentrate on far more important things such as housing and healthcare

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702032#Comment_118702032

Why housing or healthcare?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702150#Comment_118702150

cause we re clearly in serious trouble regarding both

Thelonious Monk

When you look at how Ukraine can defend itself, even though it's probably a fruitless endeavour, it's pretty bloody impressive. We have not invested anything in military or defense so we would have to roll over to the first power that decided to land here. We currently rely on the UK/EU to protect us but that's not really fair is it? Why do they have to invest in military and we don't?

We've all seen how quickly things can change on the international stage in recent days, if world war ever breaks out and someone thinks Ireland would be a good place to take for strategic reasons, we can do absolutely nothing about it and not fight back at all. Why should others have to defend us? We wouldn't be able to do much, but every plane we shot down, tank we destroyed, or enemy soldier we killed would contribute to the overall war effort with allies.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702174#Comment_118702174

Bit of an exaggeration. We have plenty houses in this country and a very good healthcare service. Go live somewhere else if you think you can find better.

Larbre34

In my personal view, our economic and social fortunes are linked with the EU project. We have benefitted to the tune of trillions and brought our Country from backwater kip to one of the wealthiest and most advanced on Earth as a result of that partnership and all that investment, not to mention influencing a social and political revolution, making Ireland one of the most socially progressive places in the World.

For all that, I believe we have a mutual obligation to protect that way of life, from internal and external threats alike.

The same goes for cyber terrorism, or political threats like PiS or Fidesz or Five Star, or external dangers like Putin or Trump, or Erdoğan or mass commercially driven migration.

Now, I'd much rather see the EU drive common defence on this continent than NATO, as its far too America oriented and really we cannot trust their broken democratic system to endure.

On that basis, we need to have a full and open debate on our Defence policy and our strategic place in Europe, the North Atlantic and the World. Not in the splendid isolation of 1939, but in the global realism of 2022 out to 2100.

BattleCorp1

We are hardly neutral if we are banning all Russian planes from our skies etc.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702426#Comment_118702426

But how are we going to enforce this ban?? Shoot them down if the Russians dare transgress? With what? And then what happens afterwards if we do manage to down a plane?

Neutrality for a small nation like ours is a nonsense. A delusional pretence.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702544#Comment_118702544

We can't enforce this ban. I agree with you that our neutrality is a nonsense. We clearly aren't neutral.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702299#Comment_118702299

hahaha, very good! oh and my property and health care needs are doing just fine!

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702583#Comment_118702583

could not care less

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234995/ireland-and-neutrality

It has never been morally right.

It's not even implemented properly. To be neutral you to have some reasonable capability to deter others from violating your neutrality, like Switzerland for example.

A certain section of Irish society has used "neutrality" for two reasons - to not live up to our own responsibilities as partners in the western democratic world and depend on everyone else and not contribute one iota - cowardice. And, secondly, to be cheap.

Simple as that. It's indefensible and embarrassing.

Then we have the cheek to sponge off everyone else when we need assistance - like getting our own citizens out of Libya of Afghanistan. Why? Because we couldn't be arsed purchasing even one heavy lift aircraft every other nation in Europe has.

We think we're special.

vriesmays

We are special, this country has one of the lowest average IQs in Europe.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702683#Comment_118702683

thats clearly obvious to...

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702738#Comment_118702738

Any evidence of that?

Kermit.de.frog

...

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702774#Comment_118702774

boards.ie?

Larbre34

Every sanction and ban and expulsion and exclusion and seizure perpetrated by the Irish government on the Russian State, so long as it is underpinned by the correct international agreement or legislation or statutory instrument, is perfectly legal and proper.

As none of this constitutes military action, or the supply of arms, it is not a violation of neutrality, unwritten though that may be.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702551#Comment_118702551

We don't even monitor our airspace we have no clue what's up there.

Larbre34

Right so lads.

As of today, this 27th day of February 2022, Ireland is no longer a neutral Country notionally, spiritually, or any ally you care to mention.

We are now fair game.

I'm not saying that's a bad position to take, but fair game we are.

Duckworth_Luas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702774#Comment_118702774

Posts by that username are usually followed by a mod posting "Do not post on this thread again"

A troll

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703759#Comment_118703759

This makes me feel like a proud EU citizen, well done Ursula

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118704016#Comment_118704016

For once, you and I are absolutely ad idem.

When the time comes, you can rest your bike against my car and we will walk to man the barricades together.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118704167#Comment_118704167

You made me chuckle Larbre 😄

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703759#Comment_118703759

Under the terms of the EU treaties we are bound come to the assistance of other member states. When France evoked this clause in the past, Irish troops replaced French troops on UN duty. Ireland has been a member of the Nordic Battle group and has taken part in training exercises. These are not the actions of a neutral country....

Kermit.de.frog

...

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118704382#Comment_118704382

Which is how it should be. Given Russia's action in Ukraine and them carrying out 'manoeuvres' off the west coast its important we have some strategic importance. We don't need to join Nato , we have the luxury of knowing we will be helped by them, without having to pay for it. I would like a few fighter planes and better ships however.

starkid

i think its fair to say if Ireland was neutral in the face of a brutal regime like the Nazis in 2022, we would effectively be cancelled and become persona non grata. we were fortunate in WW2 that Hitler never followed through on operation green. and fortunate that Devs signing of book of condolence and the sean russell stuff is more well known among Europeans.

Neutrality is such an easy position to take and makes most of our foreign policy positions questionable as we have utterly no first hand knowledge of true and terror. its easy for Ireland and Irish people to pontificate on peace.

Larbre34

That's exactly the complaint certain right-wing Brits are making.

However, if Ukrainians don't have a Visa to enter Britain, they are subject to any immigration measure that already exists at border control or in-Country.

The Common Travel Area doesn't provide control free travel, as anybody that has ever gone from Ireland to GB will know, you will still be checked at ports of entry.

That still leaves the matter of Northern Ireland, but honestly **** them, we're all going to be one jurisdiction soon enough, they can come to me with solutions, not with problems.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118757086#Comment_118757086

Maybe the ones who come from a small town in the Ukraine?

What would you suggest?

thefallingman

We are not neutral, which is fine but we shouldn't be saying we are

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118757086#Comment_118757086

'mainland Britain'

Strumms

Is our so-called “neutrality“ morally defensible?

yes, it is…I don’t believe it’s in our constitution but more a policy which can only be changed through a referendum.

Those right wingers in FG have for years been advocating abandoning our neutrality. They are on record as recently as during this Ukraine/ Russia conflict of advocating the same.

Nobody came to our aid during any conflicts we had with our neighbour, not even the US, so why we’d be sending out our citizens to fight in wars or conflicts that would not benefit us a jot…

we are already spending hundreds of millions on overseas aid and now aiding people to come here, from Ukraine and beyond, homes, food, cash, medical cards, free gratis…. now some want us flying our citizens off to fight in wars that we have no concern for us and nothing to do with us ? Nahhh let us be. We benefit nothing from changing neutrality.

Larbre34

There are two types of Nations, militarily, in Europe.

NATO members, or neutral States, all of whom cooperate with NATO members on matters of technology, peace keeping, humanitarian disaster response using airlift and sealift. Let's call the neutral States 'non-aligned', because all of them are members of one or more of the EU or EFTA or the OECD or PFP or the UN, so nobody is really ever neutral.

Within NATO, you have some nations, like Iceland and the 3 Baltic States, who don't really have much of a military of their own, but host NATO military assets to defend their territory.

Among the non-aligned States, we have Sweden, Finland, Austria and Switzerland. All of these have committed to fully fledged homeland defence programmes covering land, sea and air. Even famously passive Switzerland has national military service, bases buried in alpine caves and a fleet of 40 F-18 Hornet jets.

Then you have little old Ireland. Neither fish nor fowl. Paralysed with decades of lost investment, nailed to a totally undefined policy of neutrality, relying on the charity of others (see MoU with UK RAF). Our lack of equipment to see our own skies and seas means that we don't even know, what we don't even know.

Our current policy is that of an immature coward, head in the sand, arse in the air.

So we have two choices, invest nothing and join NATO for the ride-along, or invest in defending our non-aligned Country and all its resources and all its areas of responsibility. That is called sovereignty.

So don't listen to those who would have you believe that this debate is about sending your kids off to fight in a European Army. Article 29.4.9 of the Constitution prohibits that specifically without the people's assent. It is actually about making the choice to avoid that completely and to lower the chances of falling into such a scenario in a chaotic situation, like the one we are seeing in Ukraine today.

It's about time this Republic finished growing up. That means facing up to the responsibilities that go with being one. An uncomfortable conversation for sure, but we live in uncomfortable times and in an uncomfortable World and the worst possible time to have the conversation, is forever tomorrow.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118760779#Comment_118760779

nobody came to our aid you say, where did we get guns from and money to fund the revolution, not the US according to you but that's not right strumms

Leonidas BL

https://twitter.com/i/status/1520846423629213699

British Isles 🙄