The gulf stream and the Earth's rotation

Orion402

It is nearly impossible to post in the other thread as the keyboard delay makes it an ordeal to create a response so a new thread is necessary while avoiding reactions that belong to a different time in the forum's existence. One issue, among many, is using interpretation/modelling/conclusions as opposed to interpretation/modelling/predictions in order to discern what the Earth's climate is by making use of planetary comparisons rather than being chained to predictions, dire or otherwise.

Every now and again, a website will either give the correct Equatorial rotation velocities or round it off to the nearest digit where the actual value is close to 1037.5 mph-

https://www.weather.gov/jetstream/jet

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/ocean-gyre/

In terms of geology,I simply extend the feature of zonal flows beneath the fractured crust where those flows are unimpeded, and so differential rotation/zonal flows create the 26 mile spherical deviation from a perfect sphere and the driver of plate tectonics through differential rotation across latitudes. The idea is horses for courses using recognisable fluid dynamics, whether it is the hot fluid beneath the surface crust, the motion of the oceans and the motion of the atmosphere but all linked to the Earth daily motion.

On the surface where Continental landmasses intervene, the transfer of heat from Equatorial to Northern latitudes combines the jet stream with the gulf stream to give Ireland a maritime climate. Those who imagine the gulf stream will stop really don't have a grasp of fluid dynamics and its influences on the climate and geology of the planet so as long as the planet rotates, the gulf stream will continue to influence our weather. This all refers to geographical climate and therefore weather which is fine for short term weather modelling and predictions but no more than that.

Planetary climate is defined within a spectrum with the Earth having a position within that spectrum by virtue of its inclination to the orbital plane. This is where interpretation/modelling/conclusions become important as the imagination is not allowed to run wild with information, but rather a platform to create a framework by which our home planet's climate can be considered and researched using satellite imaging among other tools. No convictions are needed to engage in this type of modelling as it appeals to those who are interested in predictions of short term weather modelling and separately modelling which is largely restricted to interpretation of a very complex topic.

It should provide those contributors to this forum, who are interested in modelling when weather events are quiet, to shift their focus to modelling conclusions for a better understanding of climate using a moving Earth in a Sun-centred system.

M.T. Cranium

I think the people who imagine the Gulf stream might stop really mean that it might cease to transport warm water, if melting of arctic glacial ice increased, then more fresh water would enter the Labrador current and reach the Gulf stream southeast of Newfoundland, where it would then float on top of the salty Gulf stream because fresh water is less dense. This would cool the surface of the North Atlantic and the effect would be that the Gulf stream would appear to weaken (it might still be transporting a lot of warmth a few hundred feet down). A process like that on a larger scale happened (according to research) at the end of the glacial maximum during the Dryas periods when glacial meltwater from Lake Agassiz in central N America broke through the ice dam to its northeast, and could flow out into Hudson Bay rather than a longer, slower exit through the Missouri River into the Mississippi. That was still chilling the Atlantic to some extent but with the longer flow through warmer climates, it reached the Gulf of Mexico at about 15-18 C instead of 1-3 C as it could do in northern Manitoba. This was in the order of 8 to 10 thousand years ago in two waves (the older and younger Dryas cold spells). Eventually Lake Agassiz drained out and the process weakened back to allow the post-glacial optimum warming about 5,000 years ago.

Orion402

I have no interest in 'yesterday's men', what they think and what they conclude. If they can't work with the 24 hour day and the Lat/Long systems to assign the correct rotational values across latitudes, they exempt themselves from any issue where cause and effect of that rotation has on the Earth sciences of climate, geology and biology.

I can accept those who have more balanced views based on the dynamics of the Earth, including daily rotational inputs which influence ocean currents, the atmospheric counterpart and even such things as hurricane structure. This often extends to larger structures of similar shape where larger rotational forces act on galaxy structures rather than question what holds all the stars together-

The great innovations are made by those who make connections like this, for example the meteorologist Wegener working off the geological and fossil record to demonstrate plate tectonics but always falling short of a mechanism. I simply connect the spherical deviation of the Earth with the symmetrical generation of crust off the Mid Atlantic Ridge as differential rotation of the fluid interior in contact with the fractured crust as a working principle.

The gulf stream and zonal flows of the atmosphere and oceans are connected to geographical climate, however, they are also connected to planetary climate through the motions of the Earth and specifically how two surface rotations combine across the orbit to influence the variations.

Gaoth Laidir

Orion, I'll try again. You seem to state that you have been correcting "them" on their rotational errors. Grand, so could you please post links to the papers you've published and any information on who "they" are? Just links, not another essay.

M.T. Cranium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701935#Comment_118701935

You cannot correct something which is not wrong. As I demonstrated in the other thread, the rotational speed at the equator is the same whether you consider the time frame of the sidereal day (23h 56m 4.0905 s) or the more familiar synodic day (24h). Therefore there has never been a time when any atmospheric scientist drew a wrong conclusion from being aware of the sidereal day. Moreover, I would imagine that many atmospheric scientists could not instantly tell you what a sidereal day was all about, or what its period was. This is not through ignorance but a lack of any need to know about it. Anyway, he doesn't like sidereal time concepts because he doesn't want to work with right ascension and declination, preferring to stay with celestial latitude and longitude. I cannot fathom why this is, and I'm at the point where I feel like I have proven my point and should move on, if the gentleman wishes to keep up with these intermittent eruptions, that's up to him. I suppose my decision to read and post in these threads is in the mistaken belief that I could use logic to convince him to realize that his points are invalid (not the facts he states, other than those related to his actions about correcting the experts, but the use of the facts to illustrate a point which is not thereby illustrated). A secondary motive for participating is just to try to prevent any other person from disappearing down this same rabbit hole.

Orion402

There are some wonderful websites out there expressing the relationship of timekeeping to geography and the Lat/Long system, how important it is and how individual people make a difference. The exploration as to how the 24 hour day and the 360 degree geometry of the rotating Earth eventually surfaces as a wonderful system of reckoning with definite Equatorial rotation velocities using clock precision, but I hope others would leave the fictitious contrivance of celestial sphere modellers behind and move on to more productive use of timekeeping-

https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/what-longitude

From here on in, researchers get to model the effects of fluid motion in terms of differential rotation across latitudes whether in the atmosphere, the oceans or beneath the fractured surface crust. The viscosity of the atmosphere, the oceans or the molten material beneath the crust are all different, yet they all act together to make life on the surface possible. With special attention to the relationship of the ocean and atmosphere in terms of weather on one side and a means to appreciate the motions of the Earth on the other in order to determine our unique planetary climate in comparison with other planets.

Society is leaving behind two years of anxiety after the genuine presence of the virus so is ready for something positive and productive rather than face into the predictions of doom merchants and their sullen view of the planet and solar system research. I wouldn't even dignify a response to a person who believes the 24 hour system can be divorced from the Lat/Long system without loss of the Equatorial rotation velocities for who would?.

What is called climate change modelling with computers began in the late 17th century as a misadventure with clocks as they organised observations to suit a clockwork solar system where the usefulness of RA/Dec allows observers to predict the relationship of celestial bodies to each other without concern for solar system structure or the motions of the Earth. These are yesterday's men, people who create a drag on society and little can be said of them and their wild, undisciplined imaginations.