Ukraine bans men aged between 18 and 60 from leaving the country (due to conscription)

iptba

If women are capable of taking paid roles in the military, I don't see why they can't also be conscripted. 

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The Ukrainian government has also announced compulsory military service for all men of fighting age.

https://www.thedailyherald.sx/international/ukraine-declares-state-of-emergency-announces-compulsory-military-service

Edited to add: And similarly I don’t see why they can’t do military service (which in many/most countries that have it only males have to do).

One eyed Jack

They can -

https://coffeeordie.com/ukrainian-women-register-military/

DeadHand

A moot point really, the Russians will have the job done before any mass mobilisation of citizenry, male or female, can occur.

In any event, what of it? It's not extraordinary to see a nation conscript men to a greater degree than women.

Men, generally and by dint of psychology and physiology, make more effective combatants.

This truth was accepted common sense for the entirety of human history up until the last few wacky decades. It feels bizarre to have to spell it out in an adult context.

iptba

A moot point really, the Russians will have the job done before any mass mobilisation of citizenry, male or female, can occur.

I should probably have put more thought into my initial post as my chief interest is in general issues regarding military service and conscription rather than only what was happening in Ukraine. I think the general issues are more interesting.

In any event, what of it? It's not extraordinary to see a nation conscript men to a greater degree than women.

As I have now clarified, my chief interest is in the general issue.

Very often women haven’t been conscripted directly in the military at all in past wars.

This is even planned into the systems. For example, in the US, only men are required to register https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System

Yet women make up 16% of enlisted forces and 19% of the officer corps (https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/demographics-us-military). In other countries with military service, often only men have to do it despite women having paid roles in the military.

It seems strange that women are suitable for paid roles, but often deemed not suitable for compulsory military service and conscription. 

fits

Of course the answer is not that women should be conscripted also but that no one should.

thefallingman

i honestly believe we should do a year here, the young modern irish man is like Graham Norton these days, metrosexuals with skinny jeans and plucked eyebrows, they'd have a heart attack if someone attacked them

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691685#Comment_118691685

We can't finance or keep personnel in the defence forces as it is , how on earth do you think we'd manage conscription.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691859#Comment_118691859

we waste enough money on the junkies keeping them geared up and housed as it is, either inside the joy or a cushy flat, i know you know all about that, there's a start and would bring plenty of cash in, legalize grass and put 20% tax on, plenty of ways to get money back

Manach

Historically (from the French Revolution on_, conscription has never been popular and causes problems in terms of social unrest. As well, based on what I've read from modern military thinkers (such as Lawrenece Freedman), mass conscript armies are not viable on modern battlegrounds except as a last gasp of a regieme. While post-conflict having an armed populace would make life difficult for an occupying force (eg the US in Iraq) the Russians have experience from post WW2 on nulliying parisans in Western Ukraine.

thefallingman

Personally if Ireland was invaded like Ukraine was, i'd be the first in the que to join up, and i know alot of Ukraine citizens feel that way. Imagine what would happen here, all the mcgregor wannabees would be on the first plane out of here

In order to repopulate a nation after conflict, you will need more females then male.

getoutadodge

You go girl! Women should be conscripited first ..over and above men....who should be kept in reserve over the border. Only fair to right historical gender bias etc...an RTE Primetime special awaits.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234670/ukraine-bans-men-aged-between-18-and-60-from-leaving-the-country-due-to-conscription

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691925#Comment_118691925

Yeah, I'd love to see you last more than 6 months in a cushy flat in Ballybough, Ringsend, Dorset street etc., we'd see then who'd have the heart attack.

 I know you know all about that

What does this mean? Cos to everyone else, it looks like you're calling that poster a junkie who's on the dole.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691685#Comment_118691685

Mandatory military service is not conscription.

whisky_galore

It will be interesting to see the take up on this. The concept of queuing up for a chance to die for ones country is a bit last century, no?

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692083#Comment_118692083

haha who said i don't live there, and you have a problem with them areas Shifty ?

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692125#Comment_118692125

the two Klitchcos have signed up, one is 45 and the other 50

seamus

It's a complex question.

In the event of a invasion/capture, an enemy is considerably more likely to keep the women & children alive and execute the men. Therefore in the sense that you're looking to minimise casualties, sending the women away to mind the children and keeping the men to fight is the "optimal" allocation of people. Sending men off with the children and keeping women to fight stands a much greater risk of leaving thousands of war orphans.

That's before you get to the traditional aspect which asserts that mens' role is to fight and protect while womens' is to nurture and raise.

I mean, obviously in the sense that a family has two adults and conscription is required, they should be permitted to choose who goes to fight.

But then you're introducing a bureaucratic aspect to an emergency situation. The country doesn't have two weeks to wait while you debate the matter and fill in your response online. Instead, they take a hardline policy which is, "Take the men".

It's unfair, but it's also war. This is why they say, "All's fair in love and war".

iptba

Of course the answer is not that women should be conscripted also but that no one should.

So if an evil dictator, say like Hitler, is about to invade a country and perhaps not just take the land but also kill a lot of the citizens* countries should never have conscription?

*For example for ideological reasons or because it’s easier to be an occupier if you kill people who might be part of a resistance movement

thefallingman

are they doing a lotto for conscription like they did in the usa for Vietnam i wonder

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692083#Comment_118692083

I think it's a dig at me , he possibly knows I work with homeless addicts and has managed to make correlation with addicts and conscription.

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691685#Comment_118691685

No interest in taking up a trade or any physical work.

Credible reports from an american man that walked to Poland from Lvov, of ukrainian boys men and old men being forcibly conscripted at gunpoint from the refugee columns.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691941#Comment_118691941

An interesting counterpoint is from the US in WW2. The needs of the country were such that by the middle of the war, volunteering for the military became prohibited, and conscription was the only point of entry. There were two reasons for it. Firstly, the US didn't want all the experts in industry or agriculture manning a rifle when they could be engineering new gear, so they were refused, and secondly, it meant that you didn't have too many people volunteering for, say, the Navy when the Army needed riflemen or aircrew.

It's to be observed, though, that US conscripts went through the exact same training as regular volunteers (Reservists do as well today). That's a bit different from most nations which use conscription and have specific, often condensed, training regimens for non-Regulars.

conflicted. If I believed in my nation I'd stay and fight and wouldn't need to be conscripted.

If I believed in my nation I wouldn't want to be fighting alongside those forced to fight who are craven or incompetent or stupid or psychologically unbalanced as they would be a danger to me and the successful defence of the nation.

Boards.ie a microcosm of society. Would you want to fight for the nation alongside some of the the types who frequent this place.

Modern Armies are professional armies and don't want to hire the stupid or the unbalanced.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692141#Comment_118692141

Still wouldn't go hand to hand with them

frosty123

and what if you're a coward what if you don't want to fight? Execution?

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692455#Comment_118692455

In America for the Vietnam war these people were forced to help the wounded who came home mentally and physically scarred, and then they were forced to go and still serve their time, harsh or fair you can decide

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118689277#Comment_118689277

Are you simple minded?

The OP literally acknowledges this. Women aren’t forced, men are.

Women get paid, men are forced to do it.

Women can leave any time they want, men can’t.

You either want equality or you don’t.

Yoozername.

If I was an evil dictator would you not just order your army to kill all the women and leave the men alone in the country you invade. A horrible tactic obviously but would that not be most effective?

Yoozername.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691976#Comment_118691976

So should infertile women be forced to serve? Your post stinks of sexism.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692560#Comment_118692560

Stinks of sexism 🤣

Conscription of men only stinks of sexism then

iptba

With conscription just of men, many of the conscripts will have dependents. So they get conscripted over women with no dependents. In some cases, the mother may no longer be around or be in some way not be suitable as a single parent due to mental and/or physical illness, injury, addiction, etc..

By only choosing men for military service, countries are effectively choosing that a lot smaller proportion of women, or none at all, will be conscripted in a time of need. People can make excuses that in a time of war, corners can be cut but it is being built into systems to make is easier not conscript women if only men have to do military service. Many women could do many useful roles with the right training (as we see in paid roles).

fits

If you can’t get enough people through volunteering then the battle is largely lost already. Not everyone is suitable to be a soldier.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118691685#Comment_118691685

Just hire Dub scumbags who enjoy attacking people.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692891#Comment_118692891

Reeks of desperation. Lads in their 30s, 40s and FIFTIES huffing and puffing and up against fit trained battle ready Russians in their late teens and 20s.

Thelonious Monk

Quite the tangent even for boards men standards to feel hard done by

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118693132#Comment_118693132

Russian kids. They shouldn’t be there either it’s a tragedy.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692546#Comment_118692546

I read the article in the opening post. You clearly don’t understand the response, but that’s no immediate reason to think you’re a bit simple minded. It’s the fact that you think anyone is convinced you have any interest in equality provides sufficient evidence of your mindset.

But for what it’s worth, no, I don’t have any interest in equality. I understand that in any case there was always more to war than equal numbers of men and women on all sides. Plenty of gay men who want to join the armed forces in Ukraine have to contend with the unspoken policy of “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell”, not just an American phenomenon -

https://amp.dw.com/en/lgbtq-troops-and-vets-go-to-war-with-homophobia-in-ukraine/a-58059054

Every army needs it’s jarheads, but far more necessary in war is Intelligence. Eggheads like Alan Turing and Grace Hopper are far more useful to the war effort than any amount of misguided misfits -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692560#Comment_118692560

It depends on how monogamous you want your society to be. The experience of France after WW1 which saw a shortage of men of fighting age in WW2 is an example of the problem which resulted.

frosty123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118693120#Comment_118693120

Wouldn't last 5 min when push comes to shove 😐 run on home to their mammy's

iptba

bubblypop

>In order to repopulate a nation after >conflict, you will need more females then male.

So what are you suggesting? Seems like you are suggesting polygamy which is not something one hears many modern western women calling for? Indeed, I think feminists might call it a patriarchal system. Currently it’s illegal to have more than one wife.

PS My quote button doesn’t work for some reason.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696642#Comment_118696642

I'm not calling for anything.

I'm merely suggesting a possible historical reason for men being conscripted over women.

And you do know people don't have to be married to have sex right........

It's absolutely not fair. Doesn't mean it's not the right option though.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692128#Comment_118692128

You live in Ballybough, Ringsend and Dorset Street? Impressive.

I grew up very close to Ballybough and yes, I do have a problem with the area.

endacl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUXqH1rhHrc

fryup

but what about sissy boy's??

iptba

As I mentioned, my principal interest in this topic relates to conscription in general and military service in general.

However, just to deal with a specific point referenced in this thread in case it gets forgotten in the future: although "women between 18 and 60 who are 'fit for military service' and work in a broad range of professions" were required to register for military conscription, according to a report in December, they haven't in fact been conscripted to the best of my knowledge, unlike men between 18 and 60.

Israel have mandatory military service for women.

iptba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719655#Comment_118719655

Yes, some other countries also too. But many don’t even when women can hold a considerable number of jobs in the paid military.

Most countries with mandatory military service have exemptions anyway, so not really mandatory at all.