The jet stream and the Earth's rotation

Orion402

On the RTE news last night, one of the meteorologists being interviewed brought up a recent report from Maynooth-

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0222/1282333-jet-stream/

One of the main drivers of the jet stream is the planet's rotation and differences in rotational speeds across latitudes. All planets with a viscous composition have differential rotation across latitudes with speeds tending to decrease in bands (zonal flows) rather than a steady decrease experienced by the surface crust. I took notice of this about 15 years ago in pointing out that differential rotation beneath the surface crust not only influences the 26 mile spherical deviation between Equatorial and Polar diameters but account for the symmetrical generation of crust off the Mid Atlantic Ridge (Plate tectonics).

I managed to get anonymous people to come to their senses and adjust the period rotation for the planet after centuries asserting that it was some other value than 24 hours as per the Latitude/Longitude system-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

What they did not do, crucial to any research of Earth sciences like climate, is adjust to the correct rotational speeds of 1669.8 km/hr or 1037.5 mph as they assign a nonsensical geography to the Earth based on the RA/Dec error.

It is irritating watching meteorologists scramble around with climate change/ global warming modelling, not because it is extreme but because it is pathetic. A good start is to follow the historical and technical details of timekeeping and ultimately the empirical misadventure in the late 17th century which led researchers to lose the most important fact that it is to lose- that one sunrise/noon/sunset cycle equates to one 24 hour rotation of the Earth with all the latitudinal speeds attached to this fact.

AllForIt

I noted on today's RTE News on the same day that it was announced Nphet is to be disbanded and masks are no longer compulsory in shops, that George Lee is back but this time warning about the 'Jet Stream climate catastrophe'. I mean, could he not just have left it till tomorrow, just to give us 24 hours to rejoice in the good news over the lifting of most covid restrictions before going back to doom and gloom again.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118674043#Comment_118674043

I wasn't having a go at the meteorologist nor the same dull round of dire predictions based on a tenuous connection by the tv presenter, I was celebrating the first signs that things are changing, albeit too slowly, with recovering planetary facts in order to extend the discoveries on to Earth sciences like climate and geology.

This forum is based on computer simulations and predicted outcomes and that is fine given that it is limited to a number of days and generally accurate apart from when more extreme conditions are involved. I do not find a welcome here because I have no interest in extending weather on to climate and arguing over models. Research into climate hasn't really started, however, as humanity regains its senses by using their interpretative faculties properly and by not allowing the imagination to run riot, researchers can first undo the errors of the past before moving on to really creative and productive research.

A section of society will always be attracted to dire predictions and conclusions, but another section may wish to actually appreciate the connection between the Earth sciences of biology, climate and geology first and foremost and leave the anxiety and desperation to those who are inclined to that lamentable condition. It is a more dynamic version of what Von Humboldt wanted to do as 21st century people have the necessary imaging and data to counter those who make life sullen and desperate.

"This assemblage of imperfect dogmas bequeathed by one age to another-- this physical philosophy, which is composed of popular prejudices,--is not only injurious because it perpetuates error with the obstinacy engendered by the evidence of ill observed facts, but also because it hinders the mind from attaining to higher views of nature. Instead of seeking to discover the mean or medium point, around which oscillate, in apparent independence of forces, all the phenomena of the external world, this system delights in multiplying exceptions to the law, and seeks, amid phenomena and in organic forms, for something beyond the marvel of a regular succession, and an internal and progressive development. Ever inclined to believe that the order of nature is disturbed, it refuses to recognise in the present any analogy with the past, and guided by its own varying hypotheses, seeks at hazard, either in the interior of the globe or in the regions of space, for the cause of these pretended perturbations. It is the special object of the present work to combat those errors which derive their source from a vicious empiricism. " Von Humboldt, Cosmos

Reckless Abandonment

Was the jet stream not only discovered (recorded properly)in the 1930s.

Its is not a fairly short timescale to be making predictions about it changing and the causes/effect it might have from a climate point of view a 330km change isn't that much..

JanuarySnowstor

What a load of rubbish, I see no difference in the weather now to 40 years ago. The only difference is media sensationalism and naming of storms. We've always had periods of unsettled weather especially at this time of year!!

There's been only one event in the last 40 + years that surprised me and that was Hurricane Ophelia!!

Gaoth Laidir

I noted a contradiction in George Lee's commentary. Setting the hype up by mentioning the recent three storms, he correctly states that the jet stream is formed by the temperature difference between the poles and tropics, but then sets things up for contradiction by going on to mention how the warming Arctic has "affected this temperature contrast", somehow implying a link to these three storms. The Maynooth scientist then said that the Atlantic jet stream has strengthened by around 8% in the past 140 years, which would contradict the warming Arctic theory. So on the one hand they say that a warming Arctic will slow down the jet stream, but then they also say that it's increased in speed. Which is it?

At least he gets one thing right at the end: Climate science is so complex and there's a lot of learning left to do on it.

Gaoth Laidir

At the risk of opening up another can of worms, could you (in one simple link, without an essay) post evidence of where and whom you got to adjust the period of rotation? Was it NASA, ESA, God? Show us evidence of this claim please.

I managed to get anonymous people to come to their senses and adjust the period rotation for the planet after centuries asserting that it was some other value than 24 hours as per the Latitude/Longitude system-

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675706#Comment_118675706

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675706#Comment_118675706

All you have to do is look up the Wikipedia facts for the Earth back in April 2021 using the article history. The false conclusion ties the wrong value for each rotation to nonsensical Equatorial rotation velocities which still remain.

Maybe I will spend the next 20 years convincing them what the proper velocities are coincident with a rotation rate of 15 degrees per hour.

Almost impossible to reply to your comment as delay in keyboard response is awful.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675787#Comment_118675787

No, where did YOU get "them" to change the period? A link to Wikipedia is not evidence. I see nothing in April 2021 about that. And again, who are "they"?

I suppose we should be happy that your keyboard is acting up and we only got the three lines as a reply. That's a first...

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675822#Comment_118675822

You come from the dysfunctional period in this forum and have long lost your influence once the forum's icon went on a solo run with even more dire conclusions than his opponents. That must have made you feel pretty rotten so you are better off sticking to modelling short term weather where you have some say and leave climate to people who can discuss it. It is the best I can do for you.

Starting with the cause of the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle as the planet turns once every 24 hours. Previously, modellers insisted the Earth didn't rotate once every 24 hours because they followed an exceptionally stupid conclusion inherited from the 17th century and only up to recently have they started to change to the correct framework based on the 24 hour and Lat/Long systems. This is how 'science' is done and I have no objections as long as they remove silly conclusions made by careless people-

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

People, like yourself, are so full of hysterics that you cannot come to grips with Equatorial rotational velocities consistent with a Equatorial geography where 15 degrees of separation is consistent with 1669.8 km or 1037.5 miles and also 1 hour time difference. These values can be reduced to 4 minutes clock time for every 1 degree of geographical separation or even smaller divisions.

The jet stream is linked to rotational speeds across latitudes, so anyone who wants to believe in values other than the ones given in the previous paragraph and only those values can just stick to modelling upcoming events in the short term. It suits me as it is possible to develop planetary climate along with planetary motions and those who can't link one sunrise/noon/sunset cycle with one rotation as cause and effect disqualify themselves from this conversation and any other for that matter.

If you want to be a nuisance then be my guest, but basically climate involves interpretation and not predictions, those short term weather predictions can be left to you and others in the forum while climate doesn't even involve meteorology unless the meteorologist is interested in planetary motions and that I have yet to see.

Gaoth Laidir

So you're basically bullshítting when you say a) your keyboard is acting up, and b) you have such influence now as to compel "them" to change "their" understanding of the period. A complete spoofer.

Orion402

Planetary climate is a gorgeous topic comprising of two separate parts that combine so the Earth's planetary climate can be defined against the climate of other planets. One part is geographical climate based on continental landmasses, proximity to the oceans, latitudinal location and things like that most associated with weather. The other part is planetary climate where the Earth has a definite climate in contrast to the other planets using its daily and orbital motions and the relationship of axial inclination to the orbital plane.

The latter determines how fast or slow conditions change across latitudes over the course of an orbital period. The further inclination the axial inclination is from the orbital plane (like Venus and Jupiter) the more benign the conditions, the closer to the orbital plane (Uranus for example) the more volatile the conditions.

Planetary climate is the rate of change in surface, oceanic and atmospheric conditions as the planets rotate and orbit the Sun. The Earth has a largely Equatorial climate as its inclination is above 45 degrees from the orbital plane yet it has a sizable polar climate component.

A lot to discuss and consider if these people can be found. I respect the contributors of this forum are just interested in the weather ahead, however, geographical weather intersects with planetary motions in so many ways that discerning the motions of the Earth after an awful period of academic indulgence is part of the solution for everyone.

Gaoth Laidir

You try any angle to start a thread on your Earth rotation essays. This one happens to purport to deal with the jet stream but inevitably turned into more of the same garbled ramblings. I'm just annoyed that I took part.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118676222#Comment_118676222

You making the right decision based on your annoyance.

The Earth rotates in two separate ways to the Sun or through the light and dark hemispheres of the Earth where the North and South Poles act as a beacon for the surface rotation as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth. It is for a different type of person as the direction of travel into the topic of climate doesn't rely on what humans do or do not do and it is restricted to the interpretation of information in front of people rather than making predictions which can be left to short term weather events.

https://calgary.rasc.ca/images/planet_inclinations.gif

Planetary climate is defined as a spectrum between Polar and Equatorial based on the relationship between the daily rotational inclination of the planet and the orbital plane of the Earth. For example, Venus has an Equatorial climate as the atmospheric changes is minimal across latitudes as the planet orbits the Sun is negligible with no appreciable variations in daylight/darkness lengths, whereas Uranus, with its inclination close to the orbital plane experiences rapid variation in conditions across latitudes and therefor has a Polar climate.

The relationship of the daily rotational Equator changes to the orbital plane across the year, while the North/South poles (where daily rotation is absent) turn parallel to the orbital plane (to the Sun in the above graphic). Think of it as a small day/night cycle (daily rotation) sitting inside a large annual day/night cycle (orbital surface rotation) so the combination of these two surface rotations gives us the seasons.

The video in the next response shows Uranus as it orbits the Sun over the course of 5 years. About 50 seconds in, it becomes possible to identify two actual surface rotations of the planet as the time lapse speeds up demonstrating the explanation for the seasons on Earth and other planets. This is where climate research starts.

Orion402

https://hubblesite.org/contents/media/videos/1999/11/175-Video.html?news=true

Orion402

Modelling is a wonderful thing to do when interpretation and predictions go hand in hand rather than just open-ended conclusions based on guessing outcomes. If responsible modellers were operating from basic and proper principles, it would become possible to elucidate the Earth's climate using comparisons with other planets and even experiment with different axial inclinations to the orbital plane in order to appreciate why life on Earth is possible whereas on others it is not by the traits of dynamics alone-

As an aside, it is now possible to model the structure of the solar system using both interpretation and predictions in real time and every bit as enjoyable as short term weather modelling apart from the certainty of appearances of the planets as they travel behind the Sun as Jupiter is doing presently as seen from a satellite tracking with the faster moving Earth-

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

Just scrolling the dates forward will show the Earth and Jupiter's position to the central Sun while the time lapse shows the dazzling Jupiter come into view.

This is the proper use of modelling in terms of the Earth's motion, the Sun;s central position and the motions of the other planets as they come and go within range of a camera with its focus on the central Sun. Considering that direct/retrogrades haven't been touched since Copernicus first accounted for the direct/retrograde motions of the slower moving planets using a different framework, it can be dismaying that there isn't enough discipline among observers here to make sense of the use of interpretation and predictions rather than dire predictions.

There is quite a difference modelling conclusions with what is going on at present and modelling conclusions based on future outcomes and climate research should be based on the former in order to understand the Earth science first and foremost.

mcburns07

“People, like yourself, are so full of hysterics that you cannot come to grips with Equatorial rotational velocities consistent with a Equatorial geography where 15 degrees of separation is consistent with 1669.8 km or 1037.5 miles and also 1 hour time difference. These values can be reduced to 4 minutes clock time for every 1 degree of geographical separation or even smaller divisions.”

I think this might be the greatest insult I’ve ever read on this forum.

Orion402

A forum where interpretation/modelling/predictions is pursued for short term weather events is perfectly fine and I enjoy it myself as all people should, however, the same principle can be applied to large scale observations in solar system research and specifically the relationship of the motions of the Earth to Earth sciences like climate. The timekeeping misadventure of Royal Society modellers with its core in assigning the wrong rotation rate to the planet and subsequently wrong Equatorial rotation velocities has an immediate impact on cause and effect, including the cause of the day/night or sunrise/noon/sunset cycle.

I work with interpretation/modelling/predictions too in terms of a new way to appreciate our position and motion in a solar system structure allowed by satellite data just as weather modellers use satellite imaging for weather purposes. It is even possible to discern our planet's climate by using planetary comparisons with other planets using common traits such as axial inclination to the orbital plane which determines the rate of change in atmospheric, oceanic and surface conditions as the planets orbit the Sun.

https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

I doubt very much if contributors in this forum bothered to look at either the solar system model or the time lapse in real time to draw the many conclusions that exist with just a little effort as it is all new to observers. These conclusions rely less on predictions than working principles for solar system structure, the motions of the Earth (the annual change in the position of the stars from left to right of the stationary Sun) and ultimately into Earth sciences like climate, geology and biology.

I insult nobody as they insult themselves if they assign false values for the planet's rotation at the Equatorial circumference coincident with the false rotational period-

Equatorial rotation velocity - 1674.4 km/h; 1040.4 mph

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

Gaoth Laidir

Orion402

There was a period in this forum when the situation was dysfunctional until one of the icons suddenly announced his predictions were more dire than his opponents. That period has passed along with those who were engaged in graph warfare.

This is different, this issue is demonstrating that models/interpretation/ predictions are fine for short term weather events, whereas conclusions based on climate are partitioned into geographical climate most closely associated with weather and separately planetary climate which is a more encompassing topic with many historical and technical issues to sort out.

A meteorologist may have some influence on geographical climate, however, on the stage of planetary climate they act against genuine research based on cause and effect between planetary motions in a Sun-centred system with effects on the surface, in the oceans and in the atmosphere across an orbit.

NedsNotDead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118683773#Comment_118683773

I find your posts utterly bonkers but strangly enjoyable.

Please keep posting

Orion402

Presently, the area where the Sun remains constantly out of view with the North pole at its centre is beginning to shrink rapidly as the North pole turns towards the light hemisphere after the December Solstice when it was midway to the light hemisphere of the Earth.

Planetary climate is based on the extent of that surface area which is represented on Earth as the Arctic and Antarctic circles. Were the Earth, with its present rotational/orbital traits have an inclination like Uranus where the poles are positioned close to the orbital plane, the Arctic/Antarctic area would be enormous thereby the variations in surface, oceanic and atmospheric conditions would result in volatile weather across a season and far in excess of anything this forum could imagine.

Planetary climate is a gorgeous topic where modelling is exceptionally help to explain conditions on Earth and why inclination matters in making our planet habitable across large regions of the globe. If the Earth had an inclination like Uranus then life would be impossible.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118684684#Comment_118684684

FFS don't encourage him!

M.T. Cranium

Wow I missed this one entirely, my bad. You can rest easy that GL has lost no sleep over the fact that he and I may now have different estimates of what natural variability of climate may produce in future temperature trends. I use the qualifier may for my own estimation, as it rests on a couple of assumptions that are not provable, one being that solar activity will resume to the relatively strong and regular cycles of the mid-20th century, and the other being that the warming already observed is in fact partly natural variability driven and partly a response to AGW.

While it's an important subject that could affect the environment in profound ways, my research is admittedly speculative, the more orthodox climate change position has self-belief in spades and considers its projections to be very likely to materialize unless there are external unknowns such as large-scale volcanic dust veil production (a variable that would affect my contention as well), or a longer term solar quiet phase (here again, that might not work in my favour). GL can tell you what his position is, I wouldn't presume to speak for him, but at one point we tended to agree that variations were being over-stated and that future variability would be more natural than man-made, which are points that I have not abandoned, the only change in my thinking was that natural variability could be about to resume a larger increase. I would wait for the next solar peak after this one to see much evidence of this, and that could be 2032-35.

Now all this other stuff that is posted mystifies me not because I don't understand it but because I don't know anyone with a scientific education who would argue with any of it. All the diagrams about planets and their axial inclinations are standard fare and I don't dispute any of them, nor is it any mystery why planetary climates vary as we have been able to measure in this era of fly-by investigations. I wouldn't claim that everything seen and analyzed was known beforehand or predicted, but a lot of it just added detail to things that were already known. We already knew that Uranus had that sideways rotation as I can attest because I happen to own a very old astronomy text that was published in the 1930s and it has these diagrams and predictions of when the north and south poles of Uranus would be pointed in our general direction. I don't know offhand when this was first observed and worked up to full understanding but it was likely into the late 19th century when bigger telescopes became available.

Both GL and myself have tried to engage the thread author with questions that could in theory have answers that are not just declarations or obscurities. Then we might be able to work out better what the alleged differences are in understanding, because I never get any clear sense of that, for example, retreating into "explanations" of why our axial tilt governs climate feels like an evasion since everyone here would agree on it and everyone probably has the basic knowledge required.

There never was any "wrong" rotational period, it's better stated as Orion's refusal to accept the paradigm of sidereal rotation (which produces a rotational period of 23 hours 56 minutes and some number of seconds which doing some math in my head must be around (whirr, clank, exploding noise of vacuum tube) 4.0905 sec. ... Now he also states at every opportunity that some perceived fixation on sidereal rotation has blinded us to the wonders of meteorology. While a previous poster identified a tremendous insult, this is a tremendous joke. I have probably spent about a grand total of five minutes in this lifetime thinking about connections of sidereal rotation to meteorology and at about the two minute mark of that, I determined there was very close to zero connection. My five minutes is perhaps a world record because almost every other meteorologist or climatologist or weather enthusiast has spent zero time thinking about this connection. The existence of sidereal time is likely not that widely known among weather professionals anyway, the overlap between atmospheric sciences and astronomy is not what it used to be (considerable at the beginning of our rather young science).

So in any case there is also no "wrong" rotational speed, there is only one rotational speed for the equator which is c/24 miles per hour where c is the circumference in miles. There is no sidereal rotation speed that can be different because as a theoretical construct it would have to be c'/23.934 where c' = c * (23.934/24) and the two terms cancel out. It is no different from defining a meaningless hourly segment rotational speed.

What use if any is there to sidereal rotation? In atmospheric sciences, probably none whatsoever. In astronomy, all things being equal, sidereal rotation takes one to the next similar view of the night sky (or the day sky except for the Sun and Moon). Now all things are not equal, stars move around relative to each other (a concept known as proper motion), planets move in apparent prograde or retrograde motion so they either get ahead of sidereal time or fall behind it. A prograde motion means they fall behind it. Take Mars which is the fastest prograde planet. In about 2.2 years, the earth overtakes Mars, let's round that off to 800 days, so within the 800 days, Mars will rise in the east one less time than the background stars. That means it will appear a bit later each sidereal day (although earlier each synodic day). The difference on average will be about 108 seconds or almost 2 minutes. 800 x 108 sec = 86400 sec = 1 day. So the period for Mars risings, transits and settings would all be about 108 seconds longer than a sidereal day, or 23h 56m 5.8905sec. Even so, at around opposition, we are moving faster than Mars and it appears to be making a temporary retrograde loop; at that time, it rises more frequently than one sidereal day. So at various other times the lag must be more than just 108 seconds, it probably approaches three minutes at its peak. The further out planets have smaller differentials. Inner planets have more complex relations to sidereal time and average out at the same sidereal period, sometimes appearing to move faster than the background stars and sometimes slower.

Orion seems to think that Copernicus had everything figured out "correctly" and that later astronomers screwed up his work. I have to wonder what Copernicus himself would make of that, if he had the opportunity to study the later advances of positional astronomy.

It would seem that our disagreement (if one really exists at all) is not with the concept of sidereal rotation, but our decision to declare it valid. Orion seems to lean towards declaring it erroneous but I see no error in it, the question is where (if anywhere) is it useful? That would not be in the realm of weather and climate. I did a number crunch on temperatures over a very long period of time and found that sidereal day had no signal whatsoever. So from another perspective, I also moved on from sidereal rotation, but only in the limited sense that it has no valuable applications in this field. That is not to say that synodic or sidereal periods of planets might not be useful time frames for climate research, if the Sun and those planets (in particular Jupiter) interact by exchanges of energy or heat, then we are more or less in the way of that and would see a signal, and my research established years ago that this is in fact the case, and that these flows of energy seem to be radial rather than linear (I call them field sectors and they rotate around the solar system in phase with Jupiter and with weaker results some other planets too). As earth moves swiftly through these slowly advancing field sectors, we get periodic temperature responses on the order of 0.5 to 1.0 C deg. As I've said a few times I also think the Moon modulates these field structures when aligned with them, with predictable weather responses. I view all of this as electro-magnetic more than transfers of heat or gravitational/tidal effects.

There is also a relationship between solar activity and the relative positions of Jupiter and Saturn. During "regular" solar activity, both recently and in the more distant past, solar activity peaks fairly close to alignments of these two planets. During weak activity, the period slows down and only the position of Jupiter in the solar system seems to be a strong factor. This suggests that some interaction between Jupiter and Saturn within the solar system's magnetic field is modulating solar activity, but it can weaken (the period of weaker activity has 100 and 200 year sub-periods) and then we are left with a weaker Sun-Jupiter interaction. Here again, earth can be aligned either "in the way" or off to one side of these alignments during the year, and our planet seems to throw in its own minor contribution to the variability. These are not exclusively my findings either, some others have published papers on this general line of research although they did so after I had first circulated my findings. I have not established if that was just a coincidence (which is probably the case) or somehow these other researchers followed up.

This has rambled away from the thread's subject matter but is related to it in a way. I don't fault anyone for taking contrarian views of science, this is how we make progress although it also creates a lot of fruitless unrecognized work that many in the sciences would lampoon as crank efforts or pseudo-science. But then as I've said here before, a scientist is a person who lives in a scientist's house and drives a scientist's car (or rides a scientist's bicycle).

Quantum Erasure

Didn't think I'd learn anything from this thread, but there you go...

Gaoth Laidir

I see Orion has now set up a new thread with the excuse that keyboard issues prevent him from replying in this thread. Have you ever heard such nonsense? He's just not able to come back with a reply to MT"s post, that's all. He must take us for a right pack of fools.

Orion402

The delay in keyboard to visible response is awful whereas I can type normally in a new thread. This line alone has taken about 2 min to type.

I really don't have the patience for self-pitying misery guts or those who suddenly announce that their predictions are more dire than their opponents.

Using analogies and experiments (models) for interpretative purposes is altogether different than using analogies for predictive purposes. It has always been this way-

"I know; such men do not deduce their conclusion from its premises or establish it by reason, but they accommodate (I should have said discommode and distort) the premises and reasons to a conclusion which for them is already established and nailed down. No good can come of dealing with such people, especially to the extent that their company may be not only unpleasant but dangerous." Galileo

This is why short term weather modelling is sufficient for predictive purposes, however, modelling climate for interpretative purposes is an altogether different venture. There should be no opposition unless short term weather modellers fancy their chances at dire predictions without sufficiently appreciating the real distinctions between planetary climate and geographical climate.

[Seriously, who has time for people who put words in another's mouth]

Gaoth Laidir

The delay in keyboard to visible response is awful whereas I can type normally in a new thread. This line alone has taken about 2 min to type.

Maybe if you didn't write an essay each time when one line will do...

Orion402

Normal service is restored and I can type normally making it a pleasure once again. I have nothing to say to those who were made to look like complete idiots when climate was discussed in terms of predictions so maybe others will tell them when the icon decided to opt for even more dire predictions, not even his opponents decided to stay.

Interpreting planetary motions, including our planet's motion, leads to conclusions of cause and effect rather than predictions even though Royal Society modellers have forced through the idea that observations serve experimental predictions since Sir Isaac proposed his own idiosyncratic and distorted version of the works of the first Sun-centred astronomers.

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

That represents the faster moving Earth overtaking the slower moving Jupiter and Saturn thereby causing them to fall behind in view. The experiment/analogy is a faster moving car on a roundabout overtaking slower moving cars in an outer lane so they fall behind in view, hence the use of observational interpretation to form conclusions rather than make predictions. Once the Earth is moving then cause and effect between the motions of the planet and Earth sciences of climate, geology and biology kick in.

Extracting the motions of the Earth using the faster moving Venus and Mercury requires an altogether different framework as we actually see Venus and Mercury run faster and smaller circuits seen further out from a slower moving Earth. It is fully appreciated using satellite imaging and observers can easily discern the back and forth motion of the planets closer to the Sun, in the following case, Mercury is travelling behind the Sun and Venus is travelling between the slower moving Earth and central Sun-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg

Unlike the slower moving planets which use a stationary field of background stars, the necessary interpretation of the Earth's motion using the faster moving Venus and Mercury relies on the annual change of the background stars from left to right of the stationary Sun. The analogy here is that when travelling around a roundabout, background objects which appear on one side of the roundabout change to the other side as the car continues to travel in a circuit around the centre of the roundabout.

This is all making use of analogies/experiments for interpretation where predictions are a distant second and only then to make it possible to appreciate our position and place in the solar system by using other planets and their motion as a gauge.

Orion402

When the theorists in the 17th century decided to shift the reference for daily and orbital motion away from the central Sun at the centre of all planetary motions and appealed to the daily change in position of the stars, they lost not only the cause and effect between one rotation and daily temperature fluctuations (day/night cycle), they locked out the annual change in position of the stars as a consequence of the planet's orbital motion which sets the Sun up as a stationary reference for interpretation and conclusions-

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

That observation falls under an interpretation and a conclusion as the only analogy/experiment that can be applied is that background objects appear to change position from one side of a roundabout to the other as a car runs a circuit of the roundabout imitating the components of the background stars, the central Sun (centre of roundabout) and a moving Earth (car). Everything else expands from that principle including the motion of Jupiter from right to left of the Sun even though it appears to move in the opposite direction with the stars.

What is called RA/Dec in an attempt to project the Earth's daily rotational characteristics into the Universe as both a fixed celestial sphere and a rotating one. This clockwork framework is useful for predictions only and this is where modellers jump the tracks by assigning too much significance to a clock and the 24 hour day (clockwork solar system). They tried to organise the motion of the Earth to the daily return of a star to the same place and treated orbital motion as incidental-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

Researchers have been dragging this setup around for centuries like a chain even though they believe it is a treasure but it loses cause and effect at the most basic level there is- the ability to determine that one rotation is Not one day/night cycle-

" It is a fact not generally known that, owing to the difference between solar and sidereal time, the Earth rotates upon its axis once more often than there are [24 hour] days in the year" NASA /Harvard

Modelling with clockwork in the 17th century led to such vandalism of solar system research and our planet's motions with its relationship to Earth sciences while computer modelling of climate is totally deranged based on the same indulgences where the primary principles are ignored and forgotten. The statement above from NASA falls below what it means to be civilised, intelligent, reasonable and all the other positive attributes of humanity and a great loss to a creative and productive society.

The major issue is modelling to interpretative/conclusion purposes as a stable venture and modelling for predictive purposes which is severely limited to short term weather and, in a solar system context, the relative positions of celestial objects to each other within a fixed celestial sphere.

NedsNotDead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118695725#Comment_118695725

Absolutely loving your nonsense. Don't stop

M.T. Cranium

Neds, I can understand what most of the words mean but the thoughts are difficult to get into focus. I am not trying to condescend here, I spent quite a few long nights in my uni days attempting to wrap my mind around special relativity and one or two other far out theories, this feels about the same, so being a humble person, I have to consider that there could in fact be a point I am just not clever enough to grasp.

Dare we speculate it is the other way round? My point is that sidereal time is no prison, RA and dec as opposed to celestial lat-long is no overturning, they are in both cases alternate paradigms. One does not replace the other. If you can follow both of them you can place yourself in a three-dimensional setting somewhat more easily than if you had only one and not the other.

For example, the Moon is almost overhead at times this winter and will appear even higher for two more years to come. That can be understood partly by simple reference to celestial latitude (the Moon near full phase in January and after full phase in February passes its highest celestial latitude at this point in an 18.6 year cycle) but the easier way to visualize it is by reference to declination which is the angle between the equatorial plane (rather than the ecliptic plane) and the object in question. If the Moon went around our equator it would have much different orbital positions. It actually tries to follow the ecliptic instead. But it brings along a 5.1 deg inclination to that, and the nodes of said inclined orbit regress at a fairly steady rate so that within 18.6 years, the nodes have travelled back around the ecliptic one full time. This means every 18.6 years the winter full moons, which average a declination of 23.4 deg (our orbital tilt) add on the 5.1 deg to reach 28.5 deg. We are almost to that point now. In between (last time being 2014-15) these peaks, the addition is 23.4 - 5.1 = 18.3 so the winter full moons appear relatively lower. The opposite can be said about summer full moons which will appear particularly low in the next several summers, and appeared a bit higher up at transit at that min-dec point of 2014-15.

This seems to have a weak signal for the atmosphere, variability increases with the higher declination range, and the jet stream gets more compressed near the declination minimum, hence a peak of storminess can be expected (as seen in 2013-14 for example). In North America it seems that the higher declination years lead to more frequent high-amplitude wave patterns and a tendency to blocking, whereas the lower declination years get quite active and zonal, first it is rather mild in the winter and warm in other seasons, then that flips to a colder northwest tendency around a year to three years after the minimum declination. Some of these signals are quasi-predictive in my experience. I have always had the belief that there are more signals than I can identify and if I could find all of them it would lead to a super-predictive model, except frustratingly it falls into a shifting geomagnetic field so it would not be as simple as to find the closest analogues and go from there, you also need to shift them from point A to B in the geomagnetic field. With the recent weakening and rapid westward motion of the NMP, the predictive nature of these findings has also been washed out to some extent. This may be my version of the AGW crowd's theories about polar vortex disruptions. I don't think that's such bad science as some might, rather it is bad politics because a person is bound to start thinking, "so, they think the current situation is making for more frequent cold outbreaks, and what we want is the old climate with more frequent cold outbreaks, so .. o .. o what's the actual problem here and why am I paying this carbon tax?"

Orion402

I would not dignify a response to those who talk of celestial Lat/Long coordinates insofar as the 24 hour and Lat/Long systems are based around geographical coordinates where the relationship between timekeeping and geographical distances are fixed by the geometry and the rotation of the planet. In this case, 15 degrees of geographical separation equates to 1 hour time difference, which can be condensed to 4 minutes for each degree of longitude or expanded out to 24 hours for 360 degrees. The 15 degrees at the Equator equates to 1669.8 km or 1037.5 miles so adding rotation to this well known system creates the values for an equatorial rotation velocity of 1669.8 km/hr or 1037.5 mph consistent with an equatorial circumference of 40,075 km or 24,901 miles.

The issue is that unlike the fractured surface crust where velocities decrease in a steady way from the Equator towards the polar latitudes, the atmosphere, oceans and molten fluid beneath the fractured crust rotate in zonal flows or bands known as differential rotation and consistent with all other rotating celestial objects with exposed viscous compositions. Jupiter often provides the best example of this-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSXgDiS2H_A

Yesterday's men, including some people in this forum, represent a period in human history when there was great destruction visited on Earth sciences, solar system research and timekeeping because of the rise of RA/Dec or the clockwork solar system where predictions are everything and interpretation was abandoned. You know these people as they are unable to get basic facts straight such as the cause behind temperatures rising and falling daily as the planet turns once each sunrise/noon/sunset cycle within a 24 hour day. These people imagine the planet turns less than 24 hours with an accumulating difference building up across a year.

Modelling for interpretative purposes doesn't involve dire prediction warfare, it is for those who discover that modelling for comparative purposes is far more expansive, far more creative and far more productive than shoving through convictions that humanity can control weather/ temperatures by doing or not doing something.

Gaoth Laidir

There has to be a medical name for this condition...

Orion402

Yesterday's men can stick with yesterday's comments and they are truly remarkable even if not surprising after one contributor made others look like idiots using dire predictions, something which I have no interest in (page 71 is where it all goes sideways)-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058149316/2020-officially-saw-a-record-number-of-1-billion-weather-and-climate-disasters

The jet stream is a property of the Earth's rotation as is the polar vortex so it would be really, really nice if people could confirm the correct Equatorial rotation velocities of the surface and thereby work with the zonal flows and decreases which occur across latitudes.

konman

So does that mean we will get more snow?

M.T. Cranium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118704233#Comment_118704233

I believe there is, if you google "cranks" in its scientific context and look for "not even wrong" as a subset, I think this is an example.

The most common form of crank is a person like myself with a theory outside the mainstream, however, I think that I am more in the maverick category because I am not unwilling to debate or use accepted statistical methodology to defend my views. More generally, anyone who doubts the veracity of AGW is nowadays labelled a crank but that seems a bit self-serving to me, given that critics of AGW cover a wide spectrum of alternatives and now even include (in me) one critic who says they don't go far enough.

The "not even wrong" form is when a person submits what they say is an alternative or restricting hypothesis (in this case restricting) and uses accepted facts to support their argument, but in the opinion of most other onlookers, they fail to prove their hypothesis with the facts presented. This has been my criticism of the OP in this case, for example, detailed diagrams of the rotational characteristics of various planets is somehow supposed to convince you and me that sidereal day is a bad concept. It would be no more helpful to our understanding if there was a copy of the periodic table or the finishing order at the 2019 Open or a list of good places to eat in White Plains, New York.

I am not meaning to be condescending either since I am in the same boat; in my own case, I make every effort to play by the rules, the problem is not how I conduct myself, but the outcome.

M.T. Cranium

I would point out also that despite a very lofty tone in the declarations of the OP, there are often glaring and transparent errors in logic.

One of those is that because I changed my mind about balance of natural variability and AGW in a postulated future scenario, this somehow reflects badly on either me or you. I cannot follow that logic. Before I changed my opinion, it might be true to say that MTC and GL had similar views, which might have been right or wrong. We now have perhaps different views, which still may be right or wrong. The chances of GL's views being wrong have not changed since he didn't change his stated opinion. The chances of my being wrong have either increased or decreased, or more unlikely, have remained the same. How that reflects badly on either of us is a logical step that I cannot detect. It is, interestingly, the way a lot of mainstream scientists also think, which makes me wonder how far this acorn fell from the tree, and from what tree it fell.

Orion402

Modelling for the purpose of interpretation is so satisfying whereas modelling dire conclusions takes the fun out of research and re-directs it towards political/social imperatives that are unjust and simply exploiting wider society. Climate research is an enormous topic that doesn't neatly form into a single entity, although the relationship between geographical climate and weather is brilliant for short term weather modelling, it has no real influence on planetary climate in general or in detail.

Of all the conclusions that I enjoy the most because it is so close to understanding, is how we appreciate our motion within a solar system structure using modelling to help with observations, interpretation and conclusions as opposed to making predictions. Because of satellite imaging, it is possible to partition the use of daily rotation and its influences on the surface like the day/night cycle from the orbital components of our planet and its effects on the surface.

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

It is simply a matter of putting the faster motion of the Earth in context of the slower moving Jupiter at opposite sides of the stationary/central Sun. People will begin to enjoy how modelling makes appreciation of our surrounding enjoyable instead of that dull, sullen mess academics would have society buried in.

Short term weather modelling in also enjoyable, however, when weather is quiet there is always modelling for interpretation to become engaged with and that is what this is all about-

Galileo — 'You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself.'

Gaoth Laidir

Now he's definitely trolling. Totally ignoring all posts directed at him while he continues posting non-sensical filibustering.

Orion402

Yesterday's men and their dire predictions are not worth dealing with when it is much easier to promote observations/modelling/ interpretations for enjoyable conclusions which refer the Earth's motions to planetary climate and planetary climate down into geographical climate and weather.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2022/0228/1283400-climate-change-report/

No need to engage with people I do not need to whereas those who actually like short term weather modelling for specific events locally or worldwide would find an easy transition to planetary climate provided they maintain a disciplined use of their interpretations, observations and imagination.

The attempt to create even more dire predictions than the normal proponents for climate change modelling sent these guys running from the forum and others to change their name least they be associated with the previous thread on climate modelling. I shrug as there is nothing I haven't seen before yet I can't be expected to deal with those who hold icons of the forum to be an authority when they are as flighty as can be and therefore fickle and unpredictable.

I still think gauging a purported 1.5 degree rise against no definite baseline for planetary temperature, but rather pointing in the direction of the industrial/pre-industrial era juncture is an amazing swindle, after all, the body is considered to have a fever once a baseline temperature for the body is breached.

People can do better, they really can.

almostthere12

I think he said all of the above yesterday as well!

Gaoth Laidir

He has two threads on the go now; "The jet stream and Earth's rotation" and "The gulf stream and Earth's rotation". What will be next? The Sodastream?

Absolute bonkers, but seems to be getting away with so why not open another thread?

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118674043#Comment_118674043

He's a despicable man. Bad enough that your job is to induce fear and despair in everyone but the sick pleasure he clearly gets from doing it, with that smarmy smug smile he puts on too. He will one day live to regret it.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118710764#Comment_118710764

I wouldn't be upset on account of RTE, it is more like those early morning infomercials selling wider society on more taxes along with the usual pictures of wildfires and so on.

The real issue is the limits of modelling where short term weather events as a result of geographical climate such as Ireland's maritime climate is perfectly fine and instructs and entertains contributors to this forum in matters of predictions. Nobody has a problem with that and it should be welcomed.

Planetary climate is an altogether different matter as it encompasses geographical climate, yet it is referenced to the motions of the planet in a Sun-centred system. Computer modelling can be directed towards explaining this area of research rather than attempting to make dire weather predictions look like dire climate predictions.

The RTE broadcaster and some meteorologists are yesterday's people, they had their moment with their dire predictions based on computer simulations, but with a society coming out of the presence of the virus, researchers are needed to take a more expansive view of the Earth science with all its positive attributes.

If the human body and its intricate inter-connecting systems were the Earth, the modellers would have the human body constantly dying and constantly lamenting its demise. Time to bring some fresh air into planetary climate.

Gaoth Laidir

N̴̨̟͖̭̐̄̂̒o̴͇̓̋̿̒r̶̜̻̖̬̤̄̒̎̓͆t̵͙̯̼̙̋͑͘͝h̵̘́̀͐̈́̚ ̴̡̮̄͐́͑p̷͓̬͔̒̈́̑̀̏o̸̜̱̝̍͊̄́̕l̵̡̮̖͌͂̈́͘e̶̞̺̞̝̒̚ ̸̛̹̓̂̈͐s̸̩̘̗͖̥̍̋͆t̴́͠ͅa̶̖̎͛ř̷̡̪̬̙͊̉ ̴̳̪̳͙̾̄̀ͅP̶͕̦͓͔͓͌͂̀ǒ̵̧̠͇̥l̶̬̙̗̤̽͐̾a̶̘͓̞͈̎͒̽ŕ̶̩̩̦̓i̴̘̖̕s̶̟̏̑,̴͔͇͚͓̿̑̈́̑ ̶̘̠̄͒̈̋̕Ḛ̴͓͎̌͜a̷̲͑̿͑̌r̵͈̟̓̄͊͜t̸̨̾h̶̫͐̓͗̈́'̸̨͍͍̻̆̾͛̏̂ṣ̸̛̆̎͋͠ ̴̲͈̓͜r̵̖̲̝̤̋ò̵̲̩̖͠t̷̲͙͍̝͉̓̆̓͝a̷̢̝̗̳̋̊͌̍̀ͅt̸̳͚̪̊̉ȩ̴͔̦̝̇̎̑̆s̶̞̞̪͂̿ͅ ̵̡̳̚ȏ̴̡̻̟͎͖̎̕ṉ̴͈̫̼̈́͊̐̚c̵̥̹̫̈ė̶̢͍̰̙̪͒͝ ̷̙̩̭̤̈̒́̈͋͜i̶̻̳̎̌n̷̘̑͝ ̷̧̤͇̳̥͛͆â̶̯̗̯̳̈́̈͒b̵͉͇͉̓̈́͗̚͝o̷̻̽͆ū̷̥͚̗̔̌̀͠ṫ̷̯͙̼̃̈ ̸͉̮͋2̷̣̥͘4̶̧͖̻̲́͆̿ ̸̬͕̱̎̐͘͜h̷̨̞̽̈́̚͜o̸͍̍ü̷̧̗͔̆̔r̴̤̪̦̥̊̓͑͗ŝ̵̛̼̻̲͆̕ ̵͚̓̈́͘͠ẅ̶̡̙̖͇̱́ḭ̶̘̏̈́̕ţ̸͖̦͍̙̎h̶̪̑ ̸̢̘̱̥̃̓͌͌̆͜t̷̨̟͍͗i̸̙̗̮͌m̷̯̘͚͖̓͑̉ȇ̵̢̪̠̇̊̓;̸̧̖̭́̇ ̴̺͕̮͕̇͋̀t̸̨̺̫̅͐̍̊̕ḩ̸̎̆u̵̲͍̭̮̽̀̄̉ŝ̴̱͛,̷̪̪͛͐ ̷̺̔a̵͈̋ ̸̧̗͉̥̉̿d̷̞͎̀͗̌͐̇a̷̯͚̤̜͆͗̕ÿ̵͚̻́͘ ̷̤͔̪̞̙͐̽̿i̶͓̪͂ṇ̷̯̥̟̪̚ ̸̢̮͚̫̤͊͗t̷̪͒̀̕h̵̛͕̰͜e̴̟̖͔̽͆ ̷̩͚̣̉͊̚͜͝o̴͇͖̮̝͐̃̓̄̈́͜ţ̵̩̎̊̄h̵̦̼̱̮̔̐͗̕e̸̢̨̢͔͖͗͒̆͊͘r̵̡̭̖͙͛͘͝ ̴̝̖͕̬̈́̃́͘p̷͉̥̥͔̌ŏ̷̧̪̲̠̗̓̋̕ḯ̵̳̖͙̯̣n̸̩̠͚̩̎̂͐̇t̵̨̓̇̎̃̋ ̵̜͇̭̘̃̿w̴̱͖̯̍͒͂h̷̛͍͉͈̅̀̈́ẻ̷̖ṟ̵̈́̆e̶̗̰̱̦̓̅̈̄̚ͅ ̷̡̫̫̤̒̑E̷̩̒å̵̛̗͍̺̙r̸̤͠͝t̶̺̥̽͠͝h̴͎̓̈́͒͝'̷̹͈̞͖̈́̑̋s̴̤͋̽̌̾ ̴̹̗̀̔̐̀ͅr̷̛̮̟̦̀̒̀͝ỏ̸̰̯͆͒̈t̸̞͙̟̏́́͆̓͜ą̴̻̠̒̄̏͂t̴͚̥̮̝͕͆̆͂ï̶̩̰̏͘o̸͈̠͔̺̾̏͜n̷̛̘̓̎̀̆ ̴̨̪̕͝i̸̥͋̃̍s̵̨̨̘̩̬̊͊ ̶̩̈͆̓͊s̵̢͕͍̟̗̊l̵̼̰̔̚o̵̧̝̬͌͂̈́w̵͓̗̑ị̸͎̺̯̥͗͛̐̿̊ň̶̹̜͈̭̉g̶̞̐̑̊͐̕ ̴̣̗̬̭̼̈́̀̾̈́͝t̵̹͐̿̆̎͠h̵̛̫̮̘͖̄̾̋͠e̷̗̝͕̰͛́̀͠ ̸̭̩̭̳̱͒N̸̖̲̅̈́̏̀̐ͅȏ̴̺͔̯͔͍̆̔͠r̵͙̦̳̦͑̎̃ț̷̏͆͌̅͠h̴̢̺͗̚ ̵̢̘͈̫͉̍̐̆̌P̵̞̺̪̚ô̴̟̫̮̮̆͑͑l̷̟̬̂̈͆̀e̷̛̹̰̗̍́̚,̷͉͔̿̿͑̇̚ ̸̰͆́ä̴̡̩̮̓̈́ͅl̶͎̼̃̋͝s̵͖̿͗o̵̝͓̩̗͆̀̇ ̵͙̹͕̔̇̉͝k̶̛̝̫͎͎n̵̦̣̝͈̊̽o̴̗̤̗͚̩͛̇͗̃w̷̩̅͝͠n̴̙͇͕͐ ̵̲̲͓̈́a̷̢̼̗͊̓͊͗̕s̸͍̻̻̈́̌ ̷̢͚͕̅̈ţ̶̹́͛̈́͗h̷̨̬̆̈́̈́̒e̶̦̋̿͘ ̴͙̥͊ở̴̲́̀͊t̴̛̰̙͐͑̇̋h̴̦͖͉̭͎̋̐͑̈́͑ẽ̷͍̭̀̄́͠ŕ̶͖̿ ̵͚̌̔̔p̶̭͚̻͝ǫ̸̳̖̭̙́s̷̯̏ṡ̷̯̩̀̈i̸͋͗͜b̷̰̐̆̆͗l̷̘͖̺͒̊́́ĕ̷̢͙̪̣̹͠ ̵̡͔͕́̓̿t̵̞̃̈́̌͒͘į̷̠̪̞̘̀̓̐̚m̸̡̙̺̦͂e̷͍͖̔̓̄͐͂͜ḳ̷̡̠̗̍e̸̩̠̥̰̾͑̐ȩ̶͇̒̃̀p̸̳͋i̷͔̮͈̇̽̎ṅ̸̺͖̩ģ̷̡̪̋̂̄ͅ ̴̛̙̗͆̂̀m̴̰̲̲̆͆̓̌͝é̸̠͗̎͋a̵̡͍̞͇̐̕s̵̯͖͇̣̐̍̒̕͜u̷̩̎̊͊͝r̶̥̜̬̺͛̍̂͊͘͜ẽ̸̘̺̞͉̈́̀s̷̬̺̫̈́̔͌.̸̞̜͎̭͋̈́͘ ̴̢̛̛̮̠́͌̋E̷̠͚͐̉a̵̭̳̳͙̪͗̈́̾̍͘r̶̼̊́t̶̟̜̮̊͑̚h̸̢̪̦͔̍ͅ'̶̼̘͋͠͠s̷̩̰̒͌͗͜͠ ̶̢̭̀̐̑̎͝s̷̹̀͌͊p̸̟̟̄̉̋ì̸̥̻̪̳́n̵̨̖͍͔̣͗̐̚n̶̙̬͚̰̠̂î̶͎͑͌͛̒n̵͈̔́̿̈́͒ģ̴̥̮̫͌̃ ̶͉̇̏̀s̴̮̘̈́l̵̼͍̽̓̎̀̚ò̸̝̯͓͝w̷͍̻̯̾̾̃i̵͚͈̲̙͒̓̓̽͠n̵͍̞̖̈̆̕͜g̵̨̳̞̣̜̾͛̾̈́ ̵̢͔̝͒t̷̪͕̋̚h̷̢͉̄̾̍ë̵̗̪̈́ ̵̹̳̋̂̈͗̓ţ̶̡̝͙̾̿́̚ỉ̷̯̃̏̚͝d̶̘͇́a̶͚̺̦̦̓̌l̷̗͑̈̒̚ ̴̬̹̌̔͋è̵͚̮̼̥̃͐̾f̴͕͕̞͎̿̅͜f̸̛͔̫͕̝͍̂͆̆͝é̴̦͉̓ͅc̴̡̺̝͂̚t̸̙͈̂̈́̓̚s̶̫̦̥̑̎̔͝ͅ ̵̡̻̮̘̂̀̾̔ẗ̵͇̙͎̗́̇̇̇̀h̴̝̒e̶͚̠̽̂̋ ̷̪̣̰̲̥̈́̾̀̎̽M̵̗̥̘̈́͋ỏ̷̯̔̃ó̷͙̐ṉ̶̘͇̋̑́̈́̏ ̸̩̲̱̣̿̈́͝h̷̡̥͎̦͖̉̀̿̑ą̸͍͉̼̣̇̈́͘s̸̙̝͐̀ͅ ̴̮̜̻̈́̽̈́̂s̸̢̛̞̼̼̣̊̚t̷̢͉̂̊̀ȧ̴͓r̴̪̜̯̎ ̷̧͚̬̫͂͗P̷̖̝̤̔o̴̢̻̘̭̣̅̏͆͊l̶̛͈͇̗̱͌͛͜ǎ̶̺̦̞͝r̸͇̃͊̄i̴̛̟̯̱̅̊ś̵͕̥̣̲̎̓̈͘,̸̢́ ̵̡̞̣̖̎̒́̚E̶̯̾ầ̴̢̠̮̚͘̕r̴̞̙͙̝̾̈́͛t̴̬͘͠h̸̼̪̭͆̓͌̍͐͜'̷̛͈͆̓̃̆ş̶̧͍̾̎̄͑ ̷̧̛̯̮͖̋̔͜N̸̼͛ͅo̵̠̼͇͙͇̔r̸̯̫̥̗̪͑̈̏̂̚t̶͖̀h̵͖̤͖̫̻͐ ̶̙̫͊̀̆͝P̶̘͑̄̌͗o̴̫̒͠l̷̡̖̗̠̞̓̆̐ȩ̶̘͔͕̓͋̈́͝ ̶̧̢̢̤̻̑̆̈̂͋i̸̥͖̤̜̲͂͊͋̎̂ś̵̩̠̝̗͛̋̏̉ ̶̖̺̼̳̊̐̉̕t̴̹̬͕̦̽͛h̵̘̙͍̤̒e̸̤̲͇͂̂͜ ̵̪̯̖͊̇́̄r̵̛͇͉̅͗̓̀o̴͍͒ẗ̸̨̥͎̭́ą̷̖̝͈͑̾̇ṫ̷͕̜̓̉͝e̸̯̞̔̔̐s̸͙̰̤͆̃̐ ̵̧͖̗͇͎̔̐e̷̦̗̪͌ͅa̵̡̘̜̍s̴̨̡̟͆t̸̡̢͐w̷̞̱̎̏͒͘͠ȁ̵͘͜ȓ̵̩̲̈́͌͘d̷̙̙̪̥̤́͂,̷̢͖̞͓̪̇̋͠ ̷̮̮̹̌̀ī̷̟̄́̏͘n̵̨̦̲̙̱͆̑́̔ ̸̪̹̻̓̄̍͝Ḁ̷̙͛̈̽̀͑n̷͍̺̓̌̿͠͝ẗ̵̙̯͎̩́̌̀̚a̷͚̱̋r̸͓̟̜͎̍͋c̶̈͜t̴̢͇̲̼͋̉i̵̧̟̊c̷͚̳̦̈́a̵͈̳̭͂̐̌.̸̢̝͚̻̊

̸̝̍̇Ė̵̪̹̜͙́͘a̵͖̰͔͍͎͗̌́̈́́r̸̤̠̙̥̈́̕t̷̖̑̉ḩ̸̙͐̀́́̊'̸͎͓̾̓ș̸͙̞̮̀͋̀͋ ̴̘̭̖͛̊̄̊ś̵̻̬p̶̺̒͜i̵̾̀̕̕͜ṉ̴̊͗̈́n̴̲̊̀̃̓i̸̞̥̣̋n̶̨̩̱͑̍g̵̹̹̭̏̃͑͑̽ ̴̭͑̆̀f̷̮̖͉̹̘̈́͛̾͛a̴̳͓̳̩͊̓̒̐̽s̵̲͎͚̰͆͘t̸̬̯͈̙́̽̿e̵̡̖̼̞͋̄̒r̶̟̜̤͓̂́̐,̵̺̩̪̓̍͂̽̊ ̸͇̥̝̐̆͗͜â̷̧̺͇̰̋̉f̵̢̛͎̩̠̼̐͘ṭ̵̡̭͓̰̉̈ē̶͕̦͋͠r̶̭̘̓͒̿͘ ̴̣͓͚̮̓c̴̡̊ơ̵̲̩̜n̶͈̹̍̈̕ͅs̶̜̩̬͑͌i̶̡̥͙̘͕͗̓̍̀s̶͔̼̾̀t̸̬̭̻̪͒͑ë̵̢̻̜́̽̅͜n̸̗͚̖̐̆t̶̢̧̘̰̊ļ̴̞͎͖̍͂̏̕y̵̛̟̬̝͂͆͛ ̸̢̙͑̈́š̸̰̄p̸̨͙̳̅i̶̧̛̟̩͈̰͗̈́̕n̶̬̱̗͉̫̑̓̈̚ ̷̢͙̜̟̖̀͛̕į̷͙̌̑̕s̸͙̒̌̍ ̸̤̗̆ś̶͓̼̖̂̑l̶͎̖̇͜ó̵̗̘͚͉̮̌͋w̶͈̹̳̖̤̐̇i̷̳͓̾n̶̨̧͈̻͠g̷̢͎̺̜̔́̅ ̵̧̟̎̀t̷̥͓̠̬̿r̷̘̎͛̈́͛͐ȩ̷͉̹̩͑͋n̶̰̊̈́́d̸̯̩̪̤͚͘;̴̱̄̓͑̀ ̵̫̠̪̈́͌͒͜t̵̜̙̲͉̀̎h̵͇̒̈́̋̈e̶̥͖̦̽͌͘͜ ̶͙̯̯̘̿̐̑o̸̘͊̐͠ŗ̴̬͚͉̩̄̅̈́̈́͠į̶̹̱̳̲̈́̽̐e̷͍̥͕̽̏n̶̜̪̟̏ṭ̷̼͓̖̄̀ä̴̱́t̵̻͓̽̾͛i̷̤͊̉̕o̸̦̤̽̕n̷̻̑̌ ̷̲͙͎͕̦͋̏̆ö̵͈̮̈r̶̮̓̍̑ ̵̖̭͎̗̳͆̇E̷͉̮̭̤͇̊a̴̩͔̣͍͙̍̂ŗ̴̭̃̃t̵̛͈̮̦͖͌h̵̗͚̣̺̤͆̾͌͑ ̸̮͎͛̈́̀͆͠ͅr̷̲̻̹͗̃̽͆̍o̴̦͆̔̀̀̈́ẗ̷̨̢̥̹͔a̸̹̍͋̈́́t̸̗̭̦̀i̴̠̻̞̔͊o̴̪͂̿n̴̫̔̓̈ ̸̦͐͋̓̿͠i̷͇͉̖̖͂̇n̵͖͝t̸̻̟̎͗̉e̵̗̤̙͖͛r̷̢̰̩̰̒̋͑̿̚ś̴̤̐̈́e̴̢̋ç̵̌̈́̀̀͊ṫ̸͖̬̾s̵̢͈̖̝̊͗̿͂ ̴͓͓̼̔̉̃ṭ̸͔̜̩̎̓̂͜ḧ̶̗͕e̸̢̝͙̰̲͒̂̊͝ ̶̧̑͊͠͠ṕ̸̗̮̗͔̿̿a̷̼̼͉̲͙͂̏̓͂s̴̝̹̒̈͑́t̸̨͚̰̠́̕.̵̧̝̜͖̌͝͝ ̸̝͎͈̯̂̐N

Orion402

Insulting people is beneath me and besides, it is counter-productive to the issues which many are well capable of dealing with when calmer heads prevail and interpretation becomes the focus.

The meteorologists announce that this is the first day of meteorological Spring and this is exceptionally unhelpful when appreciating the Equinox and Solstice points which define the seasons and how the annual cycle divided by hemispheres and across latitudes is reliant on the same principles which govern the 24 hour day. There is no daily astronomical noon as opposed to meteorological noon and neither should this recent notion be applied to the annual cycle, what observers do know is that temperatures continue to rise after 12 noon and begin to fall after 3 PM or so. The same with the annual cycle where midsummer happens on the June Solstice on this island, it rises for a few months before beginning to fall around August.

Ireland's climate is geographical with influences from the Atlantic ocean and the nearby continent and this is weather. Ireland's climate as a function of planetary climate is the rate of change in daylight/darkness conditions as the planet rotates and orbits the central Sun and that is defined by the relationship of the planet's inclination to the orbital plane.

The doom merchants have had their day so now it is time to consider planetary climate in terms of dynamics. The recovery of the fact that one 24 hour day is also one complete rotation of the Earth is a good start and that there are a thousand rotations in a thousand 24 hour days whereas celestial sphere theorists disagree-

" It is a fact not generally known that, owing to the difference between solar and sidereal time, the Earth rotates upon its axis once more often than there are days in the year" NASA /Harvard

Quantum Erasure

What causes the northern hemisphere to tilt towards the sun in June and away in December?

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118712256#Comment_118712256

It is "exceptionally unhelpful" that we have one great ocean taking up around half of one side of the globe, so this is no doubt the cause of the Earth's tilt. Or is that tilt real or just a figment of one's imagination?

The Earth rotates once every 24 hours...bla bla bla...

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118712256#Comment_118712256

The North pole, where daily rotation is absent, doesn't tilt as an action. It turns in a circle to the orbital plane where there is one sunrise on the March Equinox in a number of weeks, it crosses the light hemisphere of the Earth until it reaches a midway point on the June Solstice (midsummer) and continues to turn until it crosses into the dark hemisphere of the Earth on the September Solstices.

Modelling to interpret this would be useful even if it is a 100% observational certainty as with Uranus and the time lapse where two surface rotations are visibly present-

https://hubblesite.org/contents/news-releases/1999/news-1999-11.html

The best I can do presently is use an analogy for interpretation which ultimately goes into defining planetary climate using inclination to the orbital plane, it may be crude but better analogies will surface in time.

If your body was the Earth, your nose would roughly represent the position of the North pole relative to the orbital plane. If you walked around a central object with you nose constantly pointing in the same direction imitating the constant orientation to Polaris for example, you would soon discover that your body changes position in a rotational motion parallel to the floor (orbital plane) so this is how the Earth behaves as it makes an orbit of the Sun and minus any daily rotational influences. It is where there is a single day/night cycle at the North and South poles with a single sunrise on one Equinox, midsummer and one Solstice and one sunset on the opposite Equinox.

Without considering the annual change in hemispherical seasons as a consequence of two surface rotations acting in combination, it will be impossible to consider planetary climate properly. The main interpretation and conclusion is that when daily rotation and all its effects (day/night cycle) are extracted, the entire surface of the Earth turns parallel to the orbital plane as a function of the Earth orbital motion and traits.

Thanks for keeping things civil, it might eventually strike people that I am interested in planetary climate using modelling for interpretative purposes rather than those who use modelling for dire predictions. otherwise known as climate change modelling.

M.T. Cranium

People don't make their conclusions then do the research, they do the research and reach their conclusions. At least that's my approach, some have criticized the orthodox global warming theory in that way, personally I don't share that criticism of it, I think their conclusions are honestly derived but I have taken issue with the portion that states that all current warming is AGW and in fact there is an extra component being negated by natural cooling trends. My alternate view was that the warming to 2020 was a blend of human-caused factors and natural variability and that if the latter increased without rolling back the human component, we would logically see a larger warming. The OP says I am not allowed to think or say this because it is dire. You know, if that were some general rule of science, we would not have science. Almost every conclusion of science is dire in some respect, for example, to take a current example, nuclear fission is not a very pleasant area of study either.

The OP clings to his mistaken belief that he knows something most scientists do not know, taken at face value, he appears to think he is one of a very few people who knows that it stays dark all day in mid-winter above the arctic circle. This is ridiculous nonsense. Anyway, tired of being insulted by this idiot and making a firm pledge to stay out of his discussions. I only came into the recent one because it looked interesting, you can't tell from the boards layout now who might have started any given thread.

So if I make the mistake of logging into yet another Orion special, I will just leave. I will note that I find it ironic to be labelled "yesterday's man" by somebody who thinks the high point of cosmology was reached with Copernicus, and that another more famous example of "yesterday's men" is apparently Isaac Newton. If he thinks he is insulting me by saying I am no better than Isaac Newton, then that is worth a laugh, don't you think? (Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question).