BMW 520D - NCT Failure on discs - Purchased from BMW 9,000km ago

lostring

My F10 520D failed NCT on rear discs. Guy said when the pads were depressed there was a 1mm gap between pad and disc.

I bought the car from a main BMW dealer just over 6 months ago and have put ~9,000km on it. I literally just missed the BMW NCT guarantee on the car because the NCT wasn't due for 7 months post purchase.

Whilst I know F10s are known for disc/pad wear, would you expect discs to have worn over 1mm doing 9,000km? I'm assuming the gap wasn't there before I bought it so the wear has to be more than 1mm. My driving is 80% on 80kph roads, 10% motorway, and 10% city. I'm decent with anticipating and don't brake heavy. If it's any gauge, I previously had a B5.5 Passat that I drove over 100,000km and didn't need to change the discs doing the same driving.

I guess my query is about whether I've any grounds to approach BMW and say that if there's a 1mm gap between disc and pad, and I've put 9,000km on the car, then odds are the discs were pretty much kaput when they sold me the car, and they should have been replaced pre-purchase?

Stallingrad

Not really sure what you are describing.

Are the discs beyond minimum thickness or are the pads not engaging with the disc when depressed?

If the former it's wear and tear, if it's the latter something is wrong and your approved warranty may cover it.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058233521/bmw-520d-nct-failure-on-discs-purchased-from-bmw-9-000km-ago

Was the car sold to you as serviced? If it was I'd definitely be going back.

But even if it wasn't and even though it's a wear item a car sold by a business should last longer than 6 months/9k km. Go back to dealer and see what they over. You've the same rights when buying 2nd hand as new, read up on the sale of goods act and citizens information and then wait for the "experts" from the trade to come along and that you've no rights.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1980/act/16/enacted/en/html

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/cars/buying_a_used_car.html

sundodger5

I read that as when the brake pedal is pressed the pads are not engaging.

If so that is a caliper problem and not a disc problem.

lostring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118651200#Comment_118651200

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118651276#Comment_118651276

Yeah it's only just dawned on me that what I was told is confusing.

NCT guy said there was a "1mm gap" between the pad and the disc on the rears, but he also underlined the word disc on the NCT sheet and I thought he said I'd need new discs. He said something about the issue being on the "inner" side of the disc. But if there's a gap then that can't be the disc or pad, and is a caliper issue as you say right? If it was just wear then the pad and disc would be flush rather than there being a gap? He definitely didn't say the discs were beyond minimal thickness. The car itself says the rear brake pads have 5,000km left on them so it can't be the pad thickness.

I just ran my finger over the outer disc and there is a small lip but it's nothing substantial really. Like your finger wouldn't get caught on it or anything.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118651267#Comment_118651267

Yeah it was serviced. It was from BMW and is approved used BMW with 2 year warranty bar the typical consumables.

I think one of my main questions was about whether you'd expect a main dealer to leave discs on that haven't much life left in them. I do understand that they can't be expected to deal with wear items. The CI says this also about items not covered: "The fault is from normal wear and tear. This means it is normal considering how much the car has been used (for example, change of tyres or brake pads)"

If I have just completely misunderstood the NCT guy, given the mileage you'd expect to get out of discs (driving style dependent of course), would you expect a main dealer to leave discs on a car with <9,000km life on them? Bearing in mind they could have been worn down at 4,000km and I just didn't know until the NCT. I don't notice any difference in braking from the day I bought it until today.

Maybe I'm asking too much and that's fair enough if I am. I think I'm also just a bit tired from dealing with main dealers buying cars over the years and getting all the salesman talk about all the stuff they do on the car before selling it - the latest one was that they had to put completely brand new tyres on any used car they sell regardless of tread depth or else it's an illegal sale... kinda figured then if you're leaving discs on a car without much life on them then I should call them about it...

lostring

If it's any use, here's a pick of one outer rear disc. Should probably say also that it failed on BOTH rear left and rear right. Bit strange if calipers on both sides aren't working...

Toyotafanboi

That disc is absolutely fucked.

I'd say the issue here is the pad is sitting on the rusted inner and outer lips and not making good contact with the disc, leaving said gap.

5000kms remaining is absolutely nothing in the lifecycle of a pad either, i'd expect that to represent at absolute best 20% remaining but probably significantly less.

The car needs rear pads and discs. If bought from a main dealer recently, as you say i'd 100% expect them to cover the full cost of this and to be fairly red faced over it.

lostring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118655762#Comment_118655762

Sound, cheers for the advice.

It was bought last the week of July 2021 from a main BMW dealer with 2 year warranty and 6 month NCT guarantee. I've put 9,000km on it since purchased. The last two months I've been working at home so have only put about 500km on it since Christmas. Fair to say these discs were in shite when I bought it?

dodzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662454#Comment_118662454

They were in shite when sold to you. They could not argue that point based on sale date & miles you've put on the car since purchase. Your pictures tell it all.

Toyotafanboi

I couldn't even picture the garage quibbling this with you when you bring it to their attention. Would be better to visit in person though so that disc can be seen. It mightn't have the same effect over the phone. You need to be emphasising there's a good inch of rot on the outer lip.

The disc didn't end up in that state over 6 months/ 9k kms. It mightn't have been that bad when it was sold to you but looking at it's current condition and the time that's passed, it's very unlikely that that rotten lip wasn't there when you were buying it. Maybe the car was in stock a while, a lot of corrosion on the discs and somebody thought it would polish back up?

What's the overall mileage on the car? How old it it?

User1998

You bought the car from a BMW main dealer and they didn’t even bother to do a new NCT?

Toyotafanboi

Sounds like it had a test when he bought it?

A lot of dealers do that, unless it's out of test already you'd just ask the owner to present it when it's due for a test and you'll cover anything it needs.

The mindset being, your manufacturers standard of prep for sale would be much higher than that the NCT's minimal safety inspection so the car will usually pass. Any issues, give us a shout, we are going nowhere.

Brake Discs would be a consumable no?

brake discs are not that expensive (like €40 each) - there are a lot worse things that could go wrong tbh!

worth trying to see if the dealer will cover you but it's not going to be the end-of-the-world cost-wise to sort out.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664092#Comment_118664092

Where are you buying proper brake discs for a BMW F10 for €40 each?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664180#Comment_118664180

quick search

plenty of reasonably-priced options on brake rotors / discs

I'm sure the brands and quality can be researched further by googling

there is no mandatory obligation to take it up the hole from some Irish garage price-wise

https://www.car-parts.ie/car-parts/bmw/5-f10-f18/520-d-140-kw/brake-disc/106458

Toyotafanboi

Who said anythjng about taking it up the hole?

There's no obligation to fit the cheapest muck you can find on any random website to the only thing that shows your car down either.

nogoodnamesleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664233#Comment_118664233

OEM disks and pads are around 250GBP (from when I bought them from a main UK BMW dealer via the enthusiasts forum which included a discount when I did the job myself ). Non genuine disks even decent brands have issues with warping due to the heat dissipated from braking on the F10 and I wouldnt have much confidence on using 40quid disks on most cars (unless it was a well respected brand like Brembo or Textar on sale).

I also agree the disks on the photo have a decent lip and significant corrosion. BMW recommend disk replacement every second pad change so if it was a BMW dealer I would be querying as to what sort of inspection it had. The inner pad will wear faster and the wear sensor on the rear is on the inner pad on the F10.

lostring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663064#Comment_118663064

It's a 2014 SE with 188,500km. This is actually reminding me that I did flag the rear discs when buying it but the salesperson said their technicians would have checked over it all and given it the all clear. Not sure why I continue to believe anything I'm told by sales.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664011#Comment_118664011

It had an NCT until 20-02-2022. Had recently purchased a car for herself and got the NCTs mixed up as I thought it wasn't due until 2023. I would have got it tested at least a month ago, if not more, to make sure I was clearly within the 6 month BMW NCT guarantee.

lostring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664311#Comment_118664311

Yeah I've been quoted €520 for rear pads and discs from BMW (all in). Given I have a warranty with them and the car is one of the last to have the delightful N47 engine, I'm inclined towards going OEM to maintain my goodwill options. I love the car so was planning on trying to extend the warranty directly with BMW when the time comes if I can.

Bit of a sting if I've to pay the €520 so soon into ownership.

Toyotafanboi

Have you asked the garage you bought it from? I really couldn't see them not covering the cost of this, it's embarrasing.

lostring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664464#Comment_118664464

I contacted them and left a message about it last Wednesday. Have received no response yet.

Toyotafanboi

You need to turn up there.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118651987#Comment_118651987

There is rust on the disk which looks like caliper seized... even though unusual it seems both seized... the pic pretty hazy but look ok to me...

I expect pretty minor and if they any good they will fix... cleaning wd should to it...

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664233#Comment_118664233

How many BMW F10s have you had brake discs replaced on? If your really relying on google in your reply linking cheap discs then I'll take it as none. I've owned 3 of this model and they are heavy and are well known for going through brake discs quickly enough. And that is OEM branded spec ones. Nobody is saying get rode but being penny wise is really being pound foolish with these as if you fit cheap discs on these cars they will go through them in no time so you will be replacing them again soon after.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665428#Comment_118665428

some people go on about F10 520ds as if they are high-performance sports cars requiring carbon-ceramic disc brakes.

they are old bog-standard saloons.

I've never heard of a disc failing and causing an accident.

if you can get a garage to pay for it then get them to pay for whatever

if you're paying for it yourself do your research on what provides value to do the job well.

value being a good quality-price ratio.

Toyotafanboi

To be fair, they are 190bhp, rwd and with a tank of fuel and a driver weigh just shy of 2 tons. They are partial to brakes, considerably moreso than the likes of a Passat or Mondeo or what have you.

Gant21

Maybe they drive a toyota

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665858#Comment_118665858

well if you actually knew anything about cars you'd know that Toyota have made a more exciting sports car than BMW ever have!

LillySV

Who’s your local bmw dealer ? As u said there’s the 6 month nct deal…!u were just over that … I would approach them and see if the my cover in as goodwill gesture…. I had an old bmw a few year ago that was so old that it was just about sold by bmw and covered under their warranty … didn’t have any bother with it and had things changed and looked after without any money during that time (forget what but know it cost me noting all the time). I’ve now got an Audi I paid considerably more for and had to pay well over a grand to get parts changed in its fist service!!! And I have a service pack paid for it so this is outside it !!! In my experience bmw crew weren’t that bad … approach them about it … and follow up the chain of command if first you don’t succeed

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665966#Comment_118665966

Have a night off on that one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665985#Comment_118665985

LFA beats any road car that BMW has ever released.

It's not even close.

One of the most special cars ever created.

You have obviously never heard of it or you wouldn't put forward such a such a silly argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kurw6Wfg9t8

PsychoPete

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665966#Comment_118665966

Is that why they'd to rebrand a BMW just to release the Supra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118666035#Comment_118666035

that was some sort of cost-sharing exercise.

by all accounts neither the new BMW Z4 or the new Supra have been well-received by anyone.

not sure what point at all you're trying to make there.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665781#Comment_118665781

Your just showing your ignorance now about thinking your right when it's clear your not here.

Nobody said or claimed the F10 was a high performance sports car so I have no idea where you pulled that one up from. And nobody claimed that the brake discs failed and caused accidents. Again you are making this stuff up rather than just accept you may have got it wrong.

This model is well known for wearing brake discs quickly so putting cheap no name branded discs on them is a false economy. It has nothing to do with them needing to be a high performance car or being ripped off. Put cheap ones on and you will be replacing them even more frequently.

I'm done replying now because I get the feeling you will still won't accept the above.

Brake discs outside the premium crazy price carbon-ceramic ones (that one wouldn't be buying for this car) are made from the same material -> cast iron (better ones also coated with carbon).

What harm is there in doing a little research on good quality / price options? (if you're paying for it yourself. if OP gets garage to cover it get them to provide original parts sure)

BMW don't make their own brake discs anyway but source them from other manufacturers and by the time they arrive through their dealer network the mark-up is huge -easily over 100%

In fact it's suggested that the long-standing and respected German Zimmermann may be their main disc supplier (along with ATE), and that they are excellent quality and you can get that brand a good bit cheaper for that car sourcing them outside BMW.

No need to just default to "has to be BMW".

lostring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664497#Comment_118664497

Called in. Manager not there. Took the details and said they'd be back to me tomorrow. Will update with the outcome.

Toyotafanboi

Christ, that's painful enough. Pain in the hole for you but i firmly believe if you can get this to the point where someone actually looks at them, they would have no hesitation covering them.

nogoodnamesleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118666098#Comment_118666098

The OEM BMW disks are a two part disk (not cast).

ATE or Zimmerman disks are considerably more expensive than the 40 quid you quoted that would do for the F10. Your looking at around 120 and 100 quid (per disk) for front and rear disks respectively + pads (the OEM BMW pads are in fact Textar) another 60 quid including replacement shims and bolts + a new wear sensor + delivery. So very near to the same to what I paid in GBP for OEM from the dealer.

When the OEM are very near to what disks and pads cost from the motor factors why would you bother with the hassle and potential issues fitting non OEM?

Have you tackled a disk and pad change on a BMW before?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118669858#Comment_118669858

no I haven't done that job on a bmw.

but I know that I've saved plenty of money researching and sourcing quality parts myself before and getting a mechanic to fit them rather than getting OEM parts (most of which are not made by the car manufacturer in any case), never mind OEM parts supplied and fitted by a main dealer

I'm not sure what you paid per disc

There are a range of F10 Zimmerman discs available here from 59 euro to 113 euro or so, including 2 piece rotors

https://www.car-parts.ie/car-parts/bmw/5-f10-f18/520-d-120-kw/brake-disc/116680?brand%5B%5D=86

Obviously if yes the price is not that different in this case fair enough but it's often the case that if you do research on parts that are good you can save a significant amount

but you fitted the parts yourself also - that's different to what some garage in Ireland will supply and fit them for you, especially a bmw garage - you also got them from the UK you said as sterling currency

Toyotafanboi

As soon as someone calls a disc a rotor, that's a huge red flag to me that most of their experience is internet based :)

Gant21

The interweb is a bad lad.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118670137#Comment_118670137

I called them discs - the hugely successful car parts site chooses to list them as rotors - big deal, because they are a local website variant of a huge German company (AUTODOC) not some half-arsed-rubbish-value crowd like the Irish equivalent with "Mick" in it.

bit of a shite point imo and if that's all you have to address about the post then says a lot tbh

https://www.car-parts.ie/car-parts/bmw/5-f10-f18/520-d-120-kw/brake-disc/116680?brand%5B%5D=86

Toyotafanboi

I think it's a very valid point tbh and you've effectively confirmed it with your last post.

colm_mcm

For what it’s worth, apparently the OE BMW ones are the least likely to cause vibrations, something they’re supposed to be prone to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671153#Comment_118671153

I wouldn't give 2 flutes what term a website uses to refer to an item - more concerned with the actual value for money (price /quality ratio) they provide tbh

some people do stand out as complete disc-heads I will grant you.

Toyotafanboi

Look, all i'm saying is based on that post, you may not actually be talking from experience.

cpoh1

Its a complete oversimplification to say that discs cost €40 and just go do it yourself. Reality is they cost a heck of a lot more even for spurious or blueprint versions and unless you have a ramp its a pain in the hoop of a job to replace them on your drive. Its 2 hours easily on the back and you need the right tools for the job (windback tool etc.).

All of that is irrelevant as the dealer should never have left that car out the door with them like that as others have pointed out. Let us know how you get on there.

dodzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671205#Comment_118671205

I’ve put on an OEM set onto my F10 late last year. Perfect for a couple of 000k but vibration is sneaking back in. So that’s APEC, then Brembo then OEM, all within 2 yrs. Mating surfaces perfectly clean. It’s weird really, as all 3 sets were perfect initially. I’d love to know what’s going on.

lostring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118669119#Comment_118669119

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677470#Comment_118677470

No decision yet. Called again and was told it is going through a "process" to make a decision. Will update once I get an outcome. Losing my patience a bit at this stage.

Also recalculated and it's actually just over 7,000km that I put on it since purchase.

lostring

Still nothing. I've contacted them and keep being told they'll be in touch. Is it the main BMW crew (www.bmw.ie) the people I'd get bringing this further up the line to or will they even give a toss?

Got another inner pic of the discs...they really are in absolute shite.

bazz26

I'd ask to speak to the dealer principal or at least try to find their email address and write to them and detail everything up to this point including photos and the dragging of feet in resolving the matter.