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Is it undemocratic that a person with fewer votes than another can become Taoiseach

  • 14-02-2022 12:57pm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,282 ✭✭✭ veryangryman

    Taking the Leo example, IIRC comes 3rd in his constituency and is returned, then nominated for Tánaiste and later Taoiseach. Is this a potential hole in the rules?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭ SafeSurfer

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,282 ✭✭✭ veryangryman

    Guys i did say 3rd in their own constituency. Leo isnt in the Healy Rae's constituency so the polling card didn't give the locals a choice of the 2.

    What im saying is that Leo is definitely not the favorite where there is a choice. 2 others get ahead.

    People whinge in America when the popular vote winner doesn't get elected. Why so much pushback to the notion here?

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,616 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump

    What if you grew up in a "socially deprived" area (i.e. an area that gets loads of money but the locals insist on pis$ing any potential opportunities up against a wall) but you decided to push ahead and better yourself and went out and got educated/qualified/trained and still wanted to live in your own community as an example of what can be achieved?

    Obviously, having been educated, you are likely going to veer away from your PBPs and SFs etc should you wish to run for office to help effect some change. So you run for a different party or none. You likely aren't going to get the vote of the anything-but-British-ohh-ahh-up-the-ra-Celtic-and-ManU-jersey-wearers-kill-the-bankers-wheres-me-foreva-home voters. But imagine that despite those odds, you still get elected. It shouldn't mean that you are barred from a higher position just because of the density of density in your constituency

    (density squared)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,140 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so

    We don't do FPTP and in a representative democracy like ours we leave the choice of Taoiseach up to the people we just elected. It's exactly the same as almost any other parliamentary democracy. The US is politically dysfunctional and nominally corrupt in how it allocates seats. Parties don't worry about who gets in first because they want the 2nd or 3rd candidate to get in on transfers and often try to manage down the votes of the big vote getter to make this happen.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,177 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005

    If you follow the logic to its conclusion then colations should be banned also. If a single party doesn't get enough votes to form a government then we should keep going to the polls till one does as people didn't vote for the colation.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭ ArmaniJeanss

    This is nonsensical really.

    It's not even accurate as Varadkar was actually 2nd, not 3rd. Second most FPVs and also second TD elected, so second whichever way you look at it. Also worth pointing out that FG ran two candidates so Varadkar's FPV would have been higher if he'd been the sole candidate.

    Dublin West is also a good example of a rich/poor split constituency and he gets very little votes in Corduff/Mulhuddart areas - if it was a smaller constituency centred on Castleknock/Clonsilla/Coolmine then he'd be first. But that wouldn't make any actual difference to his popularity, though it would seemingly make him a better candidate for Taoiseach under your somewhat bizarre ideas.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,477 ✭✭✭ irishgrover

    no, because that is not how democracy works

    + we have STV

    + we don't elect the Taoiseach, the TDs do

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭ CrabRevolution

    There's pushback because you're making up your own rules as to who is qualified to be Taoiseach which are totally at odds with reality, and then are getting surprised when people call these "rules" out for the BS they are.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭ Brussels Sprout

    Not at all. We have multi-seat constituencies. There are no prizes for being the first to be elected. The person who ends up topping the poll gets the same prize as the person who wins the last seat on the 15th count - a seat in the Dail. Anything beyond that is about local bragging rights and more often than not it comes down to different parties having different election strategies.

    It's a lot easier to top polls when you don't have running mates. Most Sinn Fein candidates ran in constituencies on their own in 2020. That meant they didn't have to split the Sinn Fein vote with party colleagues in their constituencies. The same couldn't be said for FF and FG. They each ran at least 2 candidates in most constituencies. The net result of that is that Sinn Fein topped lots of polls but FF and FG were more efficient in maximising the number of seats that they won for the vote that they got - and that's what it's all about.

    I guarantee that in the next election Sinn Fein will get a much larger number of votes but they will actually end up with fewer poll toppers around the country. That's because they'll be running way more candidates next time out.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,282 ✭✭✭ veryangryman

    I'm aware of how the single transferable vote system works, I'm simply questioning it's validity. I hope the one-upmanship you attempted to show gave you some silly smug satisfaction there squire.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,378 ✭✭✭✭ elperello

  • Registered Users Posts: 21,315 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl

    Questioning the validity of what exactly?

    Also not sure why the residents of Dublin West should have a larger say in who should be eligible to be Taoiseach.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭ ec18

    no we don't have a direct democracy system where the country votes people into specific positions. we vote for people who form a government and positions are decided there.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ rock22

    You seem to be equating popularity with democracy.

    You could argue that having a Dáil and Taoiseach at all is is undemocratic . I probably wouldn't be seen as democracy by the ancient Greeks, more a type of oligarchy, or maybe a limited form of tyranny, at least in practice. Bit imperfect as it is , it is probably as good an approximation as any modern country can get to democratic principles.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,788 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    If you are looking at democratic principles, the Switzerland is the closest. They have referendums frequently to decide issues which most countries trust their parliaments to decide.

    Currently, our system is probably the most democratic within the EU as, typically, the parties get the percentage of seats that they got in first preference votes at the ballot. Now, one has to assume that voters actually vote in the order of their preference but some (many) vote strategically so skewing the result.

    We vote for candidates to be TD, while other countries vote for a list system, or parties - which leaves parties rather than voters in control. They also use other methods to 'adjust' the straight vote result.

    Mary Robinson was voted President, but failed to get more first preference votes than Brian Lenihan - so was she properly voted in?

  • Registered Users Posts: 38,424 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,282 ✭✭✭ veryangryman

    She's become a bit of a dose lately. so if I were king of the universe, i'd say yes to that question

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,850 ✭✭✭ KaneToad

    Emphatically, no.

    Also, our electoral system is very transparent and, I think, very fair. PRSTV is a great system and is much kinder to smaller parties than a FPTP system.

    I also think it's nonsense to focus on how many counts a TD was elected on. If they were elected, they were elected. Often bigger parties manage their vote to maximise candidates returned. They are not concerned about 'topping the poll'. It's an election, not a pi$$ing contest.