Irish Judicial Decisions That are soft on criminal

I think it will be useful to have a discussion on Irish Court sentences for convicted criminals, particularly recidivist criminals, and also act as a repository to links to the court cases

Irish Courts seem to be unduly lenient and looking at other threads their leniency seems to be both common, and lead to repeat criminals being free to seriously hurt or maim normal law-abiding people. The original term for outlaw, meant the person was outside the protection of the law, so could be punished with impunity by fellow citizens. The modern outlaw seems to be under the protection of the law

Anyway to get things started from today's paper, 71 previous convictions, and assaulted a minor causing harm, https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-who-punched-boy-14-and-knocked-him-to-the-ground-avoids-prison-41313748.html

If the courts give an unduly lenient sentence, the DPP can appeal, it sometimes happens. May be it should happen more?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118583855#Comment_118583855

Last week I read two reports where the DPP appealed the suspended sentences of two criminals, one who beat a 4 month old baby til they were vomiting uncontrollably (even after Gardai and ambulance arrived) but both were rejected.

so, yeah. Lot of good that does.

edit: links for some of the reports

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/fingal/court-of-appeal-rejects-states-attempt-to-jail-man-who-assaulted-his-baby-daughter-41303777.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40793088.html

Strumms

The DPP will be appealing to other judges who tend to look after their own as opposed to the wellbeing of the public.

Damien360

We should start by removing concurrent sentencing and build more prisons. Tired of “I had a hard life” excuse so that’s a reason I robbed/stabbed/beat up all those people.

Kermit.de.frog

Revolving door for the solicitors to milk. Nothing more, nothing less.

The solicitors live no where near the areas that suffer most from repeat offending so they don't care.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-who-pretended-to-be-police-and-broke-into-home-of-neighbour-90-is-jailed-41310210.html

at least a prison sentence this time. But the litany of series crime, concurrent sentencing and partial suspension of sentences need to stop

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/drunk-electrician-approached-garda-with-wheel-brace-court-hears-41307236.html

drunk, armed with a wheelbrace, the charge is pathetic and so is the sentencing.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/jail-for-man-who-punched-cafe-owner-after-bid-to-steal-tip-jar-41294687.html

6 months. Recidivist criminal. Drink and drugs. Solicitor even claimed an inherited disease in the family may have been a cause of behaviour. Of course no evidence presented that the defendent had the disease or genetic trait himself.

Oh and golfgate! Can see that judge being promoted

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585203#Comment_118585203

What would you have liked him to be charged with? Dangerous driving?

He was literally charged with what he did.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585223#Comment_118585223

His friend was arrested for theft.Came back with a wheelbrace. Pretty sure should have been charged with more than possession of weapon here.. get this you can have a criminal history, head off, grab a weapon and come back to confront gardai and not be jailed.

Now imagine a normal citizen had detained his thieving friend and was waiting for the gardai to arrive, he would have used it on a normal citizen.

Again a crininal who armed himself with a wheelbrace, while intoxicated, to free a criminal friend, gets no jailtime

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585239#Comment_118585239

What criminal history did he have?

What would you preferred him to be charged with?

https://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/home/608397/kilkenny-court-petrol-thief-sentenced-to-two-months-behind-bars.html

Stephen Maher Melville Cove . Same guy?

CaoimhinCong

Understand people’s frustati but we also need to understand that there is a sentencing guideline to follow.

This is guideline is what a judge follows a lot of the time they use mitigation to determine how long someone should serve as it is sometimes detrimental to someone offending.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585285#Comment_118585285

Then it would be these guidelines that need to be reformed / revised

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585298#Comment_118585298

That doesn’t lie with a judge. And it can’t be revisited by just amending them. Our guidelines are some of the strictest in Western Europe.

If if you look at sentencing powers in UK, France Germany we exceed them all.

Tow

There is something to be said for FF's long forgotten 3 strikes and you out policy. We would also do with finishing the Thornton Hall prison.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118583908#Comment_118583908

So you would prefer that the DPP doesn't bother then 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585203#Comment_118585203

Clearly you don't understand how convictions and sentencing work.

When convicted of a crime, that's the crime you are sentenced for. Previous convictions are given to the judge, but he is not sentencing someone again for those crimes.

Seriously, how much prison time do you think someone should get for being drunk?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058231431/irish-judicial-decisions-that-are-soft-on-criminal

...yes, once again, we have a refusal to accept our approaches to criminal outcomes are completely failing, we have a refusal to appropriately invest in measures to prevent such outcomes.......

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585444#Comment_118585444

What kind of investment measures are you thinking?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585458#Comment_118585458

we clearly need to heavily invest in our critical social systems, from educational, to health care, welfare and within the judicial systems, to try prevent such outcomes, multiples of billions are urgently required in all of these sectors

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585468#Comment_118585468

Early intervention in childhood is extremely important imo, once someone is at the stage when they are appearing in court, it's too late.

20silkcut

No doubt in my mind it’s all driven by econmoics. All these new graduates from law school have to be supported. Ireland is a lightly populated peaceful country where 99% of the time not much is happening. They have to recycle the tiny percentage of the population who break the law and they have to make it extremely attractive for people to engage in litigation with high rewards for personal injuries and liabilities. Those BMWs and Range rovers outside the courthouse won’t pay for themselves. It’s another tax. High insurance premiums to pay for the litigation culture and our own personal safety compromise for the revolving door offenders. Not to mention the free legal aid which we pay for these offenders through our taxes. Which all keeps the legal profession in the lifestyle they are accustomed to. Which is the main thing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585468#Comment_118585468

Kinda agree with you on reforming the above systems. but the problem is not a lack of money. instead of investing, reform them. Our social welfare system is amongst the most generous in the world for example. The lack of consequences to bad behaviour in this country means people do not avail of all the help on offer. Sure why educate yourself, when the state will look after your needs, no matter how badly you behave. I would also like to state there should be consequences for the elite in society,, just look at the bank scandals and celtic tiger property deveolpers(think Mick Wallace) and the lack of accountability or actual consequences

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585497#Comment_118585497

Reminds me of stat i came across re lawyers.. Law graduates have trebled in the last 30 years, while Irish graduating as doctors have not really increased at all, but the graduate entry programs have increased numbers in medicine over the last few years though

20silkcut

Yes and a Doctor can be accountable for being a bad doctor.

There is nothing like the same accountability in the legal profession or malpractice consequences.

I mean these sentencing judges are obviously getting something very wrong when these same people are passing through their hands so often.

why can’t a person who has being attacked by a person on bail or early release etc pull the judge or seek some redress against the judge who deemed them safe to be on the streets. I mean the judge has access to privileged information on these offenders and weighs up all the evidence using their vast experience and years of academic study and makes a professional decision. In any other field from a plumber to a Doctor people are accountable for bad professional decisions.

To get back to my earlier point if the country is too small to support the legal system and it’s lifestyle which it obviously is then a cap or a quota should be put on law graduates in this country.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585402#Comment_118585402

Did I say that? No. What I said was the problem lies with the judges not the DPP.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585406#Comment_118585406

Clearly you don’t understand how sentencing and conviction works

And clearly you don’t either.

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585583#Comment_118585583

The judges don’t make the sentencing guidelines so how does it lie with them.

should we be building Gulags? No remission, no attempt at rehabilitating offenders, and have this same conversation in another 10 years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585617#Comment_118585617

The judges ignore sentencing guidelines. They also deliberately disregard laws brought in by the oireachtas. For example on the law books there is a mandatory 10 year sentence if caught with drugs beyond a set value. Nearly every single time the criminal is let off with a lesser sentence. The judiciary is giving society here the two fingered salute daily

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585630#Comment_118585630

Ok that’s great you brought that up. 13k worth of drugs or higher holds the power for a 10 year sentence.

So so if my son is caught with 50k worth of cannabis. He is a college goer and got caught up in this due to a drug habit .

do you believe he deserves to receive a 10 year sentence?

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585630#Comment_118585630

Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act 1999 inserted a new S.15A into the Misuse of Drugs Act, 1977 which introduced the specific offence of possesions of drugs with a market value of over 10,000 Irish Pounds, and applied a mandatory minimum sentence with respect to these offences. However S.27(3)(C) of the Misuse of Drugs Act,1977, as amended, does leave an element of discretion to the trial judge to impose a lesser sentence in certain circumstances. This article analyses a number of those decisions to determine how the new legislation has been applied by the courts and whether any clear patterns have emerged.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585645#Comment_118585645

Yes he does deserve 10 years. The excuses etc.

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585657#Comment_118585657

Thankfully those who make the law don’t agree with you. See above you’re welcome

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585645#Comment_118585645

No one has a drug habit that requires they carry €50K worth of it. That’s not a habit that’s a business.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585661#Comment_118585661

What sentence did your son actually get?

Btw my reading of the law is the lawmakers intent is to not penalise people who were acting under duress, eg credible death threats to themselves or family. I expect the lawmakers fully intended to jail people like your hypothetical son who are engaged in large scale drug distribution due to their own poor choices

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585645#Comment_118585645

Yes, he does deserve 10 years. At that level, he's a drug dealer or trafficker destroying many lives. And no, "I'm just holding onto it because an older boy made me" should not fly as an excuse.

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585683#Comment_118585683

My son got a 6 year sentence 2 suspended. He was studying at the time, no previous convictions he’d 4 points on his license and he made a bad decision. His mitigation was that he owed some money for cocaine he was habitually using. Consequences for his actions indeed. But he didn’t deserve 10 years

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585723#Comment_118585723

What should he have gotten in your opinion?

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585730#Comment_118585730

I believe the sentence was sufficient.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585723#Comment_118585723

He wasn’t habitually using coke if he owed €50k worth.

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585733#Comment_118585733

I think your misunderstanding how these people work. He owed €2000 built up over a time. The guy came to his home, he didn’t have money to pay it and wouldn’t tell us. He was then told if he moved this stuff his bill would be squashed he was caught moving it in his car.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585737#Comment_118585737

More than you think. That stories nonsense. He’s bsing you.

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585749#Comment_118585749

Definitely not bullshitting me. I’m a former prisoner myself made plenty of mistakes. He’s no need to bullshit me. But yeah your grasp on law and sentencing powers isn’t really warranting a response.

Spanish Eyes

I think the judiciary is determined to preserve its independence from the Government and vested interests who might want them to take a different path on sentencing etc.

They will not be told what to do, unless the law is crystal clear on the matter in hand. Hence the discretionary clauses in mandatory drug sentencing.

One thing I would like to see is a minimum tariff for murder before any old release date is decided. The time served by many murderers is often an insult to the bereaved and the deceased.

CaoimhinCong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585787#Comment_118585787

When I look at Northern Ireland and Scotland their tariffs are considerably lower then ours. England is giving big tarriffs. We don’t use tarriffs but Lifers tend to do 17-21 minimum which is quite high compared to eu life sentences

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585723#Comment_118585723

Thank you for clarifying and your honesty. involved in distribution of large quantity of drugs due to his cocaine use.. 4 years to me is a bit light. Why were you imprisoned?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585590#Comment_118585590

Really?

I know someone convicted of being drunk in public isn't going to get 5 years in prison 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585550#Comment_118585550

You are basically asking for judges to be held accountable for someone elses actions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585787#Comment_118585787

There is a minimum, a prisoner sentenced to life must serve 12 years before he is even eligible for release, on licence. The average is 17 years served I believe. Of course, it is actually a life sentence so they can be sent back to prison anytime in their lives.