Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

How do we improve the permanent government?

  • 04-02-2022 4:44pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,735 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I am usually allergic to FF TDs but I admire John McGuinness because of the way he stood up for Maurice McCabe during the senior Garda witchhunt.

    I heard an interview with McGuinness last week and he brought up some interesting points. We are all quick to blame politicians but we also need to look at the underlying support structures and their accountability.

    John McGuinness: Who is really in charge of running the country? (irishexaminer.com)

    Real power lies within the civil service, but it needs a radical overhaul to make it into an efficient body that benefits the country, writes John McGuinness

    Senior civil servants, well-remunerated for the work they do, cannot be named, shamed, or blamed for the advice they give, or the projects they manage. That’s what ministers are there for! 

    How ridiculous is that in this day and age? Highly-paid and pensioned civil and public servants are unlike anyone else in employment in our country — they are faceless and blameless. Ministers, who are paid less and dependant on civil service advice, are responsible.

    That is not good governance. It is neither sensible, transparent, nor accountable. It has to stop, which should start with the reform of the 1924 Ministers and Secretaries Act which allows it. Our country cannot continue to bear the cost of what is now a huge impediment to speedy progress and effective management of our country.

    The civil and public service needs a more proactive, efficient, accountable, and transparent mindset.


    So how can we reform the permanent government and who has the courage to do so?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The banking crash showed me that accountability and politicians don't belong in the same sentence... and nothing I've seen since then, has changed that opinion.

    They live by different rules than the rest of us. The civil service has serious problems, but it's enabled by the politicians. They're both as bad as each other..

    We really need a complete reset, with the abolishment of the traditional parties, and a serious effort to destroy this appointment of positions due to familial connections... but that's not going to happen. The system is corrupt and that's not going to change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,735 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Given the lack of responses from that party faithful you'd have to conclude that people are a long way from recognising this huge problem and even longer away from trying to fix it.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    OP is right. We are a mess, with a poor system when it comes to the civil service and yes, given the lack of responses, people are a long way for recognising this.

    It's going to be the issue for SF in government to deal with. My fear is the very conservative civil service will put blocks in front of them. SF will need balls of steel to stand up to them. Hope they do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,994 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    The problem is the lack of accountability and jobs for life in both the political and civil service side. Unless you change that then nothing else will change.

    The other major part of the problem is an electorate who has been conditioned over generations to keep the head down, grumble in the pub or privately among friends, but never challenge our "betters". The last 2 years has shown just how little has changed from the days under the Church in some ways - the same servile acceptance of the proclamations from Government and others and indeed attacking anyone or anything different.

    At the core, we are a very selfish, greedy and parochial people who think little further than our immediate families or our front door. Everything else is "someone else's" problem to fix and unless it directly affects us then we don't care. This is why we elect TDs based on their ability to sort individual or local issues, but also employ an army at local government level too.

    The other problem is that too many people know that if they had the opportunity or the neck, that they'd do exactly the same things they complain about the politicians and civil service doing.

    If you want to change the Government, the first thing you need to do is change the people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    I have always thought that we elect the wrong people .... the real power lies with the civil service and they are totally unaccountable to the general public and in much of my experience, also to the political reps that we elect. The Civil Service laughs at election times... it makes no difference to them as to who is appointed by the electorate as their notional overseers.

    But as already been said, politicians can always use the current situation to deflect responsibility from themselves and very few are minded to try and change a system that has worked for the political animal since the state was established.

    It is not good enough for a politician to know how to work the unaccountable system, someone needs to challenge and change it. Members of the public should be able to get the services they are entitled to... without having to call in political favours and parish pump political influence. The word 'service' doesn't mean a thing to the civil service who generally distance themselves from the public as much as possible and are delighted that the hapless political buffer exists to keep them isolated from reality.

    If John McGuiness is as forward thinking as the first post here indicates, then I hope that he can persuade a few more of his fellow politicians to question the work practices undertaken and the advice given by the civil service.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif


    A worrying start to this thread.

    First, McGuinness seems principally motivated by his indignation about treatment of the Public Accounts Committee. Anyone who saw sittings of the committee under his stewardship knows its members behaved abysmally. McGuinness’s opinions, then, should be treated with great scepticism.

    Second, the only power that the civil service has is to stall. It has no power to pursue its own policies, so does not have ‘real’ power.

    Lastly, if you have an opinion on civil service (by which I mean the government departments, not the passport office) ask yourself how you’ve come by that opinion without having had any direct experience of how it operates. There’s a great danger of having false opinions based on various preconceptions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭VillageIdiot71


    The civil service cannot resist a political direction, if it is coherent.

    The problem is the lack of coherence coming from the political system, which reflects a lack of coherence and common purpose within the electorate.

    I'm sure there's many reasons for this lack of common purpose. I think one is the fact that so much of our wealth is generated in the FDI sector. The key strategic decisions made in those companies like Intel etc. are made abroad - so there's no actual connection between Irish politics and those companies - beyond facilitating them in our Tax laws, so that they continue to route their profits here.

    Domestic politics is then effectively engaged in shadow boxing; health service unions demanding a bigger share of the tax revenues paid disproportionately by that FDI sector, or heavily subsidised agricultural interests being given an importance far beyond their actual contribution to the economy. With no real effort to form any real common agenda.

    So you'll famously come up with something like the housing issue. Where you find existing homeowners don't want the value of their property diluted, and therefore have common cause with property developers. So you see the political system making all kinds of noise about solving the housing crisis - while politicians of (pretty much) all parties oppose planning permissions for badly needed housing projects at local level. And, just for good measure, you find folk in Donegal who self-built houses with bad bricks wanting us all to rebuild their houses brick-by-brick for them - and the politicians don't tell them to just join the queue of people who also have housing needs.

    Public service is far from perfect. But politicians prefer to keep the focus there, to distract from their own inability to create some kind of strategic national consensus out of that political quagmire - and that is their job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,447 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    It's not fair to make such a big issue over the fact that civil servants are "well-remunerated for the work they do". That's not fair on them at all.


    Don't forget that they are also well-remunerated for the work they don't do!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    let's have everyone's bonafides along with their opinions. concerned citizens all, motivated only by purety of thought and heart, yeah?

    the funny thing about a civil service, operating as it does as the professional arm of enacting and advising on policy, is that it does serve a role in what might be seen as hampering elected officials who can be appointed to a role with zero experience whatsoever of with a half interest in anything beyond their next appointment or election.

    say nothing of departments who must deliver services regardless of the party in government, or do people really think that we need full stop and reverse power to switch the entire direction of legislation, structure, human resources, operations, strategies (most of which run longer than terms of governments because guess what lads things must carry on even of your own preferred candidates didn't get in this time) with every new formation of government?


    find me a firm of equivalent size that switches strategies on a sixpence like that with any sort of long term success- and while you come up with that list I'll go through it (it will be short) and I'll tell you why even then the business of public administration doesn't work that way

    now it might be argued given all the above that stability and continuity resides to a large extent in the civil service, as things should be

    for a given value of "unaccountable" I'd need to know what levels of accountability the posters using it know of in the service and what levels and mechanisms they would propose and international comparisons for same- leat they be I dunno accused of just flinging out pub talk


    TDs and political advisors running the country? at the behest of McGuiness?


    ye are essentially begging for PJ Mara back


    always good to chat though



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lastly, if you have an opinion on civil service (by which I mean the government departments, not the passport office) ask yourself how you’ve come by that opinion without having had any direct experience of how it operates. There’s a great danger of having false opinions based on various preconceptions.

    Considering the % of the population that are employed by the Public service in Ireland, you can be pretty sure that people either have their own direct experience, or have been involved in discussions with groups who work there. Last night I went to a pub meetup, where out of 9 people, 3 worked for the public service... and those who work for the public service, tend to talk alot about the work, or the people they, themselves are exposed to. That's even without considering the numbers of people who have done temporary contracts with the public service, or their own external jobs have brought them into direct contact with Public service departments.

    This is not a sector that is hidden behind a veil of silence. The favour system is well established, with favouritism towards those "connected" being the norm. Most people who go looking to enter the public service are expected to leverage their family or friends to get support.. rather than purely relying on skills/education/experience... that's pretty damning considering the range of laws we have against such behaviour.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "Most people who go looking to enter the public service are expected to leverage their family or friends to get support.. rather than purely relying on skills/education/experience.."


    I'm sorry that's absolutely rubbish.


    absolutely rubbish.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    a claim as outrageous as that works the other way.


    anyone who knows the first thing about public service recruitment knows a statement like that is absolute barstool scutter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,590 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Faceless and cant be named eh?

    Faces, names, email addresses, phone numbers- all in the public domain


    Any chance of keeping a slight grip on reality?

    McGuinness had his chance to fix things when he was a Minister, but he was more focused on fixing his Ministerial bathroom.

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/luxury-toilet-paper-only-in-ministers-250k-office-29173269.html


    He was in the perfect position to hold civil servants to account when he was Chair of the PAC, but he didn't do much.

    Post edited by AndrewJRenko on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I recently went through the application/interview process for the Temporary clerical positions in the Public service (did the permanent positions too), and everyone I know who already is in the Public service, has told me the value/importance in leveraging such contacts for getting positions (if you have them), due to the level of competition for those positions.

    You disagree. Grand.. however, everything I've heard from people in the Public service is that nepotism is alive and well in many departments. It's not the only game in town, but it's certainly part of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭TP_CM


    Voters and the media are the two main things which keep politicians on their toes. At the moment, I'm not liking how cosy the media are getting with the government. They need to challenge them a bit more. Particularly with justice and crime and troublesome youths. The government has a habit of saying they don't have much control over situations but look what they've done over the past 2 years. They've a hell of a lot more control than they're letting on and I wish they'd be pushed more on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,590 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Did they tell you to tighten your breeches and shine up your bowler hat too? Honestly, your advisors are living in the past.

    If you go for a temporary clerical officer or clerical officer position, your future will be decided by the 2 or 3 people across the table for the 30 minute interview. You can leverage all the contacts and relatives you like, but unless there is some very unusual coincidence, they won't be on the other side of the table making a decision about your future. These are high volume competitions, with large numbers going through. You don't get to choose your interviewers and interviewers don't get to choose their candidates. Candidates will appear before them, the application form will have been sent a day or two before, and the interviewer panel will make a yes or no decision on the spot. That's how recruitment actually works for those competitions.

    Instead of spending time networking with contacts, spend your time doing a great application form with no mistakes or typos, and prepare good answers on the competency areas set out in the booklet.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can't speak for who you go to for your info.


    I've gone through more PAS comps than I can easily list in my career, with varying degrees of success throughout, I've sat at both ends of the table for internal and external panel interviews in my time and while nobody will claim it's a perfect process my considered opinion after 15 or more years in the system is that it is agnostic on the actual person under consideration to a *fault*.


    I know some summer job style placements in regional offices might be more subject to influence than is strictly supposed to happen.

    I'm *sure* state boards and high level appointments get political.

    I know from experience that internal competitions are prone to the outcomes getting leaned on.

    All three above mirror my private sector experience of similar levels of competition/process


    PAS panels for the standard grades? probably the cleanest-run, audit-safest job application processes in the country to be honest.


    I'm not tbh minded to argue the point with you any further. You heard some stuff, that's good, I don't question it- one hears a lot of things.

    The stuff you heard is balderdash, believe it if you like.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Jolie Little Strawberry


    I hear a lot of people, of all political persuasions, speaking fondly of McGuinness. He's built up as some straight shooter and an anti-establishment man of the people.

    He spoke a big game when his party fucked the country but never walked the walk. The cute hoor even employed a private PR company to boost his political chops.

    I wiped me hands with him altogether when he voted no in the same-sex marriage referendum.

    The ultimate mé-féiner.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Sorry, but are we living in some kind of alternate reality where leveraging contacts isn't insanely prevalent in the private sector?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,735 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Why are you always so angrily defensive when it comes to the public service? You seem to see no bad practice or room for improvement whatsoever. We are talking about highly paid permanent senior public servants being held to account instead of laying all the blame on the politicians.

    The Childrens hospital fiasco is a case in point. Is nobody accountable? Are we to repeat these mistakes at huge cost to the taxpayer and huge benefit to the contractors?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You're being overly aggressive. I didn't say that having contacts or influence had replaced the recruitment process, or that skills/education/experience wasn't relevant. I said, that based on those I've spoken to, both family and friends, they've spoken of the advantages of knowing people within the public service, and that nepotism is fairly common within many departments.

    Argue against what I said.. don't argue against an angle that wasn't put forward.

    Fair enough.. I'm not dismissing what you've said. I haven't worked in the public service, and am simply basing this on what I've heard from others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,590 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Perhaps you could explain how nepotism comes into play in recruitment when you can't control who will be the decision makers on the interview panel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,590 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Angrily defensive? That's neither angry or defensive. Just putting out some facts there.


    There are absolutely lots of things that need to be improved across the public service, but the level of discourse around here is so far distant from actually understanding what is happening today, it is never going to near a constructive approach for improvement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,993 ✭✭✭billyhead


    He or she probably means a phone call is made and a slip of paper is passed to or a quiet conversation is had with the Chair or member of an interview board.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    From what I gathered the interview board only determines if someone meets the general/technical requirements for the position, and that selection of those who had passed the interview/examination, would happen at a different level, and that's where having someone put in a good word comes into play. The other aspect of nepotism was in relation to inter-departmental promotions, of people who were already working there, and having those contacts would help in being chosen for limited positions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,590 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You'll have no way of knowing who the Chair of interview board will be, to make that call. And if you did find out, you'll be taking a very big gamble that the Chair isn't the kind of person to tell you to go and sh1te, and get the candidate kicked out for canvassing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,590 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The interview board, and solely the interview board, makes the yes/no decision and scores the candidate. The scoring will decide what order positions will be offered.


    There is nowhere for a good word to come into play.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,735 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Another example of how the permanent government is running the show and ministers are bypassed.

    Casual contempt for Donnelly exposed as Watt lets mask slip (irishtimes.com)

    Casual contempt for Donnelly exposed as Watt lets mask slip

    There was a time when officials cared about maintaining the fiction that ministers are in charge

    The Taoiseach’s intervention while abroad on official business to “pause” the appointment of the chief medical officer Dr Tony Holohan as Professor of Public Health Strategy and Leadership at Trinity College Dublin is damning.

    Damning for the Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly because it exposes the casual contempt his most senior officials held him in. It is especially so for Robert Watt, the secretary general, because he has let the mask slip so far as to reveal that disrespect.

    How after the row over his own appointment at the department and the increased salary that went with it he could be so deaf to public opinion or so contemptuous of political concern as to progress this appointment in the manner it happened, beggars belief.

    The consequences are far greater than the issue. Every avoidable mistake drains the resources of an organisation, and its reputation. It is poor leadership, and it is has become habitual.

    There was a time when officials cared about maintaining the fiction that ministers are in charge and ministers insisted on it; the fiction that is. The manner of Holohan’s appointment displayed new levels of brutalism from a senior civil servant.

    That the Minister knew of the appointment for two weeks but was only told days after it was announced that it was a secondment, and his department would pay the salary indefinitely has damaged all involved.

    It coincides with further news that Sláintecare, which was thought to be our national health strategy, is at best being cherry picked and diluted. Regional authorities will be established on an administrative basis only, not legislative. Real power remains at the centre.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭crossman47




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    My opinion, based on the night-watchman principle of conservatism and books such as Niall Fergusseon's "The Great Degeneration" is a rollback of many of the books of the state. The accumulated growth of laws and reguluations, often prompted by insider rent-seekers, has vastly increased the bureacratic nature of society that impacts both innovation and common liberties. Societies that had built up such elaborate state framework work fine until a shock to the system causes them to shatter like glass.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    For me it demonstrates a politician not fit to be a minister. There will always be headstrong and deceptive people in every organization and is up to the minister to stamp his authority and leadership on his department just like the CEO in any organization. If people feel it’s so easy to by past the minister then he is no up for the job.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    David cullinane utterly tearing strips off robert watt at the joint committee on health



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,070 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    I did an internal interview last week. There were 7 panels of 3 interviewers all week. I had no idea who would be interviewing me until they brought me in. They mark an interview sheet as you are being interviewed giving you marks on your competencies and general knowledge of the role. At the end of the week the interview sheets are rounded up and the points counted, those with the highest marks get put to the top of the panel and it works its way down. It's completely transparent, when you get your letter informing you if you made the panel/and where you placed on it, you get the actual interview sheet that they marked during your interview.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,618 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You are talking complete nonsense.

    The only advantage of having a relative in the public service is that they have successfully gone through the recruitment process and can therefore give some advice on how to be successful.

    However, when it comes to temporary clerical positions, you need to be particularly clueless not to be successful at one of those after several attempts.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    yeah. i "got a" fella on a panel recently by


    reading his cv

    reading his form

    reading the job spec

    putting things from the first two against competencies in the last

    drilling him until he had the hang of doing the same for himself

    running through interview techniques with him

    running through what makes for a good answer with him


    the pain of it is that down home if its mentioned theyll all tip their noses and tell me fair play for using my pull for him, and its a waste of breath even going through it for them, they'll believe what they want no more than the likes of the bilge posted above



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I think the public accounts ensures that there is no accountability.... there was a couple oif dodgy NAMA transactions i can think of off hand...



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You've both decided to re-address a point I made in FEBRUARY... and a point that has already been covered, and dismissed.

    What's up with going over ground already covered? Better yet, continuing to deal with what I didn't write, vs what you want to argue. Simply incredible.

    I get it. You disagree. Ground covered already. Get over it.

    Bloody hell.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Integritate


    It is quite easy to improve on this government. At the moment, our political leaders not only look weak and equivocating, but they are embarrassingly so. They should not be allowed to progress from one poor decision to the next by using the “lessons learned” excuse. If they were in the private sector, they would have been fired on their first week of the job. It certainly appears that government policies are now dictated by social media likes, the RTE board agenda, and the Irish Times op eds.

    It is astounding that our current corporate tax intake is not utilised to benefit the citizens of this country and to improve the living conditions of those who work, third level students, apprentices, and carers. It is apparent that if you are part of this demographic, then the current government sees you as a non-entity. The only solution that I see is to vote Independent until such a time when FF/FG TDs and Independents align to the Will of the majority. I am embarrassed to be an Irishman looking at the current state of affairs of our country and thinking back at the sacrifices of our forefathers.

    When I look at the responses of other European countries to liberal progressive policies implemented by a minority e.g. France, Italy etc, I am disappointed that we are so passive in accepting out fate. We seemed to have lost our backbone.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Fair play to you. A huge gain for them through sensible actions.

    I was recently involved in interviewing a couple of candidates for a job in the company I work for. My first time ever doing something like this and I was quite surprised how qualified people rocked up with little or no simple preparation done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,715 ✭✭✭corks finest


    Sack the lot



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I expect the constitution will have to be written when we have a united Ireland and everything will be on the table... We will become proper Europeans where politicians are accountable to the people... I think the cozy arrangement that TDs and councillors will dramatically change happen quickly enough.

    I had this conversation only a couple of weeks ago with an activist lawyer from NI and she mentioned out Health service and things that the people in NI would expect... we agreed so i expect the the savings to do this have to come from reform of current system... we also had a chat about our legal system here...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,618 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is exactly how it is done.

    I have done it for private sector jobs as well for people. Having been on the recruitment side and sat on interview boards, you get a really good insight into what employers are looking for and you can help applicants tailor their applications to meet those expectations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,713 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It is quite easy to improve on this government.

    Maybe re-read the thread title.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    We won't change the fuckers that we elect, and when we do the replacements are even worse


    Good luck getting the permanent govt shifted



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,735 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I heard this on the radio this morning. Article behind a paywall. Has anyone read it?

    Dublin Airport meltdown sparks war between TDs and civil service - Independent.ie

    The Dublin Airport controversy has sparked an unprecedented row between senior politicians and management in the civil service and semi-state agencies.

    A raft of recent controversies has infuriated Coalition politicians, who feel they are shouldering the blame for errors over which they have no control.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Augme


    What exactly does the dublin airport situation have to do with civil servants?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,735 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I think the civil servants reference was in relation to the recent secondments debacle. The DAA are semi state.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Advertisement
Advertisement