How do we improve the permanent government?

Cluedo Monopoly

I am usually allergic to FF TDs but I admire John McGuinness because of the way he stood up for Maurice McCabe during the senior Garda witchhunt.

I heard an interview with McGuinness last week and he brought up some interesting points. We are all quick to blame politicians but we also need to look at the underlying support structures and their accountability.

John McGuinness: Who is really in charge of running the country? (irishexaminer.com)

Real power lies within the civil service, but it needs a radical overhaul to make it into an efficient body that benefits the country, writes John McGuinness

Senior civil servants, well-remunerated for the work they do, cannot be named, shamed, or blamed for the advice they give, or the projects they manage. That’s what ministers are there for! 

How ridiculous is that in this day and age? Highly-paid and pensioned civil and public servants are unlike anyone else in employment in our country — they are faceless and blameless. Ministers, who are paid less and dependant on civil service advice, are responsible.

That is not good governance. It is neither sensible, transparent, nor accountable. It has to stop, which should start with the reform of the 1924 Ministers and Secretaries Act which allows it. Our country cannot continue to bear the cost of what is now a huge impediment to speedy progress and effective management of our country.

The civil and public service needs a more proactive, efficient, accountable, and transparent mindset.

So how can we reform the permanent government and who has the courage to do so?

The banking crash showed me that accountability and politicians don't belong in the same sentence... and nothing I've seen since then, has changed that opinion.

They live by different rules than the rest of us. The civil service has serious problems, but it's enabled by the politicians. They're both as bad as each other..

We really need a complete reset, with the abolishment of the traditional parties, and a serious effort to destroy this appointment of positions due to familial connections... but that's not going to happen. The system is corrupt and that's not going to change.

Cluedo Monopoly

Given the lack of responses from that party faithful you'd have to conclude that people are a long way from recognising this huge problem and even longer away from trying to fix it.

Cal4567

OP is right. We are a mess, with a poor system when it comes to the civil service and yes, given the lack of responses, people are a long way for recognising this.

It's going to be the issue for SF in government to deal with. My fear is the very conservative civil service will put blocks in front of them. SF will need balls of steel to stand up to them. Hope they do.

_Kaiser_

The problem is the lack of accountability and jobs for life in both the political and civil service side. Unless you change that then nothing else will change.

The other major part of the problem is an electorate who has been conditioned over generations to keep the head down, grumble in the pub or privately among friends, but never challenge our "betters". The last 2 years has shown just how little has changed from the days under the Church in some ways - the same servile acceptance of the proclamations from Government and others and indeed attacking anyone or anything different.

At the core, we are a very selfish, greedy and parochial people who think little further than our immediate families or our front door. Everything else is "someone else's" problem to fix and unless it directly affects us then we don't care. This is why we elect TDs based on their ability to sort individual or local issues, but also employ an army at local government level too.

The other problem is that too many people know that if they had the opportunity or the neck, that they'd do exactly the same things they complain about the politicians and civil service doing.

If you want to change the Government, the first thing you need to do is change the people.

Ger Roe

I have always thought that we elect the wrong people .... the real power lies with the civil service and they are totally unaccountable to the general public and in much of my experience, also to the political reps that we elect. The Civil Service laughs at election times... it makes no difference to them as to who is appointed by the electorate as their notional overseers.

But as already been said, politicians can always use the current situation to deflect responsibility from themselves and very few are minded to try and change a system that has worked for the political animal since the state was established.

It is not good enough for a politician to know how to work the unaccountable system, someone needs to challenge and change it. Members of the public should be able to get the services they are entitled to... without having to call in political favours and parish pump political influence. The word 'service' doesn't mean a thing to the civil service who generally distance themselves from the public as much as possible and are delighted that the hapless political buffer exists to keep them isolated from reality.

If John McGuiness is as forward thinking as the first post here indicates, then I hope that he can persuade a few more of his fellow politicians to question the work practices undertaken and the advice given by the civil service.

iffandonlyif

A worrying start to this thread.

First, McGuinness seems principally motivated by his indignation about treatment of the Public Accounts Committee. Anyone who saw sittings of the committee under his stewardship knows its members behaved abysmally. McGuinness’s opinions, then, should be treated with great scepticism.

Second, the only power that the civil service has is to stall. It has no power to pursue its own policies, so does not have ‘real’ power.

Lastly, if you have an opinion on civil service (by which I mean the government departments, not the passport office) ask yourself how you’ve come by that opinion without having had any direct experience of how it operates. There’s a great danger of having false opinions based on various preconceptions.

VillageIdiot71

The civil service cannot resist a political direction, if it is coherent.

The problem is the lack of coherence coming from the political system, which reflects a lack of coherence and common purpose within the electorate.

I'm sure there's many reasons for this lack of common purpose. I think one is the fact that so much of our wealth is generated in the FDI sector. The key strategic decisions made in those companies like Intel etc. are made abroad - so there's no actual connection between Irish politics and those companies - beyond facilitating them in our Tax laws, so that they continue to route their profits here.

Domestic politics is then effectively engaged in shadow boxing; health service unions demanding a bigger share of the tax revenues paid disproportionately by that FDI sector, or heavily subsidised agricultural interests being given an importance far beyond their actual contribution to the economy. With no real effort to form any real common agenda.

So you'll famously come up with something like the housing issue. Where you find existing homeowners don't want the value of their property diluted, and therefore have common cause with property developers. So you see the political system making all kinds of noise about solving the housing crisis - while politicians of (pretty much) all parties oppose planning permissions for badly needed housing projects at local level. And, just for good measure, you find folk in Donegal who self-built houses with bad bricks wanting us all to rebuild their houses brick-by-brick for them - and the politicians don't tell them to just join the queue of people who also have housing needs.

Public service is far from perfect. But politicians prefer to keep the focus there, to distract from their own inability to create some kind of strategic national consensus out of that political quagmire - and that is their job.

Donald Trump

It's not fair to make such a big issue over the fact that civil servants are "well-remunerated for the work they do". That's not fair on them at all.

Don't forget that they are also well-remunerated for the work they don't do!

let's have everyone's bonafides along with their opinions. concerned citizens all, motivated only by purety of thought and heart, yeah?

the funny thing about a civil service, operating as it does as the professional arm of enacting and advising on policy, is that it does serve a role in what might be seen as hampering elected officials who can be appointed to a role with zero experience whatsoever of with a half interest in anything beyond their next appointment or election.

say nothing of departments who must deliver services regardless of the party in government, or do people really think that we need full stop and reverse power to switch the entire direction of legislation, structure, human resources, operations, strategies (most of which run longer than terms of governments because guess what lads things must carry on even of your own preferred candidates didn't get in this time) with every new formation of government?

find me a firm of equivalent size that switches strategies on a sixpence like that with any sort of long term success- and while you come up with that list I'll go through it (it will be short) and I'll tell you why even then the business of public administration doesn't work that way

now it might be argued given all the above that stability and continuity resides to a large extent in the civil service, as things should be

for a given value of "unaccountable" I'd need to know what levels of accountability the posters using it know of in the service and what levels and mechanisms they would propose and international comparisons for same- leat they be I dunno accused of just flinging out pub talk

TDs and political advisors running the country? at the behest of McGuiness?

ye are essentially begging for PJ Mara back

always good to chat though

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589963#Comment_118589963

Lastly, if you have an opinion on civil service (by which I mean the government departments, not the passport office) ask yourself how you’ve come by that opinion without having had any direct experience of how it operates. There’s a great danger of having false opinions based on various preconceptions.

Considering the % of the population that are employed by the Public service in Ireland, you can be pretty sure that people either have their own direct experience, or have been involved in discussions with groups who work there. Last night I went to a pub meetup, where out of 9 people, 3 worked for the public service... and those who work for the public service, tend to talk alot about the work, or the people they, themselves are exposed to. That's even without considering the numbers of people who have done temporary contracts with the public service, or their own external jobs have brought them into direct contact with Public service departments.

This is not a sector that is hidden behind a veil of silence. The favour system is well established, with favouritism towards those "connected" being the norm. Most people who go looking to enter the public service are expected to leverage their family or friends to get support.. rather than purely relying on skills/education/experience... that's pretty damning considering the range of laws we have against such behaviour.

"Most people who go looking to enter the public service are expected to leverage their family or friends to get support.. rather than purely relying on skills/education/experience.."

I'm sorry that's absolutely rubbish.

absolutely rubbish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591139#Comment_118591139

And you're basing that on?

a claim as outrageous as that works the other way.

anyone who knows the first thing about public service recruitment knows a statement like that is absolute barstool scutter

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058231362/how-do-we-improve-the-permanent-government

Faceless and cant be named eh?

Faces, names, email addresses, phone numbers- all in the public domain

https://whodoeswhat.gov.ie/root/taoiseach/

Any chance of keeping a slight grip on reality?

McGuinness had his chance to fix things when he was a Minister, but he was more focused on fixing his Ministerial bathroom.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/luxury-toilet-paper-only-in-ministers-250k-office-29173269.html

He was in the perfect position to hold civil servants to account when he was Chair of the PAC, but he didn't do much.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591164#Comment_118591164

I recently went through the application/interview process for the Temporary clerical positions in the Public service (did the permanent positions too), and everyone I know who already is in the Public service, has told me the value/importance in leveraging such contacts for getting positions (if you have them), due to the level of competition for those positions.

You disagree. Grand.. however, everything I've heard from people in the Public service is that nepotism is alive and well in many departments. It's not the only game in town, but it's certainly part of it.

TP_CM

Voters and the media are the two main things which keep politicians on their toes. At the moment, I'm not liking how cosy the media are getting with the government. They need to challenge them a bit more. Particularly with justice and crime and troublesome youths. The government has a habit of saying they don't have much control over situations but look what they've done over the past 2 years. They've a hell of a lot more control than they're letting on and I wish they'd be pushed more on it.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591240#Comment_118591240

Did they tell you to tighten your breeches and shine up your bowler hat too? Honestly, your advisors are living in the past.

If you go for a temporary clerical officer or clerical officer position, your future will be decided by the 2 or 3 people across the table for the 30 minute interview. You can leverage all the contacts and relatives you like, but unless there is some very unusual coincidence, they won't be on the other side of the table making a decision about your future. These are high volume competitions, with large numbers going through. You don't get to choose your interviewers and interviewers don't get to choose their candidates. Candidates will appear before them, the application form will have been sent a day or two before, and the interviewer panel will make a yes or no decision on the spot. That's how recruitment actually works for those competitions.

Instead of spending time networking with contacts, spend your time doing a great application form with no mistakes or typos, and prepare good answers on the competency areas set out in the booklet.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591240#Comment_118591240

I can't speak for who you go to for your info.

I've gone through more PAS comps than I can easily list in my career, with varying degrees of success throughout, I've sat at both ends of the table for internal and external panel interviews in my time and while nobody will claim it's a perfect process my considered opinion after 15 or more years in the system is that it is agnostic on the actual person under consideration to a *fault*.

I know some summer job style placements in regional offices might be more subject to influence than is strictly supposed to happen.

I'm *sure* state boards and high level appointments get political.

I know from experience that internal competitions are prone to the outcomes getting leaned on.

All three above mirror my private sector experience of similar levels of competition/process

PAS panels for the standard grades? probably the cleanest-run, audit-safest job application processes in the country to be honest.

I'm not tbh minded to argue the point with you any further. You heard some stuff, that's good, I don't question it- one hears a lot of things.

The stuff you heard is balderdash, believe it if you like.

Hello 2D Person Below

I hear a lot of people, of all political persuasions, speaking fondly of McGuinness. He's built up as some straight shooter and an anti-establishment man of the people.

He spoke a big game when his party fucked the country but never walked the walk. The cute hoor even employed a private PR company to boost his political chops.

I wiped me hands with him altogether when he voted no in the same-sex marriage referendum.

The ultimate mé-féiner.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591240#Comment_118591240

Sorry, but are we living in some kind of alternate reality where leveraging contacts isn't insanely prevalent in the private sector?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591187#Comment_118591187

Why are you always so angrily defensive when it comes to the public service? You seem to see no bad practice or room for improvement whatsoever. We are talking about highly paid permanent senior public servants being held to account instead of laying all the blame on the politicians.

The Childrens hospital fiasco is a case in point. Is nobody accountable? Are we to repeat these mistakes at huge cost to the taxpayer and huge benefit to the contractors?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591363#Comment_118591363

You're being overly aggressive. I didn't say that having contacts or influence had replaced the recruitment process, or that skills/education/experience wasn't relevant. I said, that based on those I've spoken to, both family and friends, they've spoken of the advantages of knowing people within the public service, and that nepotism is fairly common within many departments.

Argue against what I said.. don't argue against an angle that wasn't put forward.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591386#Comment_118591386

Fair enough.. I'm not dismissing what you've said. I haven't worked in the public service, and am simply basing this on what I've heard from others.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592872#Comment_118592872

Perhaps you could explain how nepotism comes into play in recruitment when you can't control who will be the decision makers on the interview panel.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592496#Comment_118592496

Angrily defensive? That's neither angry or defensive. Just putting out some facts there.

There are absolutely lots of things that need to be improved across the public service, but the level of discourse around here is so far distant from actually understanding what is happening today, it is never going to near a constructive approach for improvement.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592940#Comment_118592940

He or she probably means a phone call is made and a slip of paper is passed to or a quiet conversation is had with the Chair or member of an interview board.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592940#Comment_118592940

From what I gathered the interview board only determines if someone meets the general/technical requirements for the position, and that selection of those who had passed the interview/examination, would happen at a different level, and that's where having someone put in a good word comes into play. The other aspect of nepotism was in relation to inter-departmental promotions, of people who were already working there, and having those contacts would help in being chosen for limited positions.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593018#Comment_118593018

You'll have no way of knowing who the Chair of interview board will be, to make that call. And if you did find out, you'll be taking a very big gamble that the Chair isn't the kind of person to tell you to go and sh1te, and get the candidate kicked out for canvassing.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593049#Comment_118593049

The interview board, and solely the interview board, makes the yes/no decision and scores the candidate. The scoring will decide what order positions will be offered.

There is nowhere for a good word to come into play.

Cluedo Monopoly

Another example of how the permanent government is running the show and ministers are bypassed.

Casual contempt for Donnelly exposed as Watt lets mask slip (irishtimes.com)

Casual contempt for Donnelly exposed as Watt lets mask slip

There was a time when officials cared about maintaining the fiction that ministers are in charge

The Taoiseach’s intervention while abroad on official business to “pause” the appointment of the chief medical officer Dr Tony Holohan as Professor of Public Health Strategy and Leadership at Trinity College Dublin is damning.

Damning for the Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly because it exposes the casual contempt his most senior officials held him in. It is especially so for Robert Watt, the secretary general, because he has let the mask slip so far as to reveal that disrespect.

How after the row over his own appointment at the department and the increased salary that went with it he could be so deaf to public opinion or so contemptuous of political concern as to progress this appointment in the manner it happened, beggars belief.

The consequences are far greater than the issue. Every avoidable mistake drains the resources of an organisation, and its reputation. It is poor leadership, and it is has become habitual.

There was a time when officials cared about maintaining the fiction that ministers are in charge and ministers insisted on it; the fiction that is. The manner of Holohan’s appointment displayed new levels of brutalism from a senior civil servant.

That the Minister knew of the appointment for two weeks but was only told days after it was announced that it was a secondment, and his department would pay the salary indefinitely has damaged all involved.

It coincides with further news that Sláintecare, which was thought to be our national health strategy, is at best being cherry picked and diluted. Regional authorities will be established on an administrative basis only, not legislative. Real power remains at the centre.

crossman47

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593085#Comment_118593085

Exactly the case.