How do we speed up Putting ?

FixdePitchmark

Big question for golfers out there. I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the pace of us amateurs, on greens. We have made massive progress in the game with ready golf. But...............

Is it just me - I need to relax and accept it ?

Or can the amateur game have a chat about this and change.

I'm no angel and am a ball "liner upper" on the ball line - this is actually a big one ?

Any ideas - or I need to enjoy the view of various 3 and 4 putts.

Stone Deaf 4evr

Maybe take up hurling?

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118580871#Comment_118580871

Lol - but it is an interesting point - what has happened to the instinctive aspect in us. The sequence has become layered , added to and added to.

thefallingman

I believe it's ignorance quite frankly, i line up putts too i mean if you want to make it you have too, but i'm also aware of my playing partners and out of respect always make sure i don't faff around wasting time, generally i have found the slowest players are pig ignorant of their playing partners and will never change, even look at the pros it's the same deal. So yes, slow players show more respect to your playing partners.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118580877#Comment_118580877

But is this a fallacy ?

To be radical - ban the line on the ball.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118580884#Comment_118580884

you could but people would line up the brand name or the number ect so i don't think that would change it, not sure my opinion is a fallacy just what i've witnessed personally playing the game for years and years, i mean i don't play with slow players because they ruin the round for me and that defeats the purpose really

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118580902#Comment_118580902

Sorry - I didn't make myself clear , I wonder for amateurs does the line make much statistical difference on puts made. We are so crap on average I'd imagine it makes very little difference.

I'm going to try a round with no lining up. Might actually focus you on the target more , what Rotellla suggests anyway.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118580916#Comment_118580916

yes the older i get the more technical my thoughts get and they are a hindrance, remember when we were young you'd flop a lob wedge of a bare lie and bang in three foot putts with your eyes closed, god i wish i could be that free again, i might try the no line myself fixed you never know.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118580946#Comment_118580946

It would be radical - but you very simply could ban any alignment aid on the ball.

None on fairway

None in snooker

Golf is just odd.

But there are far more problems too - not being ready , reading the green for too long, marking 4 inch putts.

Ivefoundgod

I don't think banning a line on a ball makes much sense. I don't play regularly with people who use the line on the ball but when I have it hasn't been the cause of slow play. I don't use it myself as I never got much out of it but I do use elements of the aimpoint technique to get a feel for a putt. I don't think putting is a bigger cause of slow play than any other aspect of the game. Bigger problem is people searching for balls for way too long, not being ready to hit etc. The 'honour' element of golf needs to be completely eradicated IMO, it drives me wrong when I see groups standing around with no one on the tee box because some ejjit is distracted or looking for something in their bag. Not enough is done by clubs to promote ready golf IMO.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581006#Comment_118581006

Your probably right - I guess on the green you could maybe gain a min maybe more if the sequences were changed ?

The other stuff happens what about 12 times in a group before you get to the green.

I'm not sure - I'm wondering how much time a slow 4 ball on a green versus a fast 4 ball on a green takes.

billy3sheets

Play ready golf on the greens.

If you're ready to putt and your partner is delayed and there's no advantage in seeing their putt, then putt your own ball even though it's not your turn.

Putt out from inside a metre as long as you're not stepping on a line.

If you're waiting your turn, do as much lining up as you can without disturbing others.

banie01

Bigger holes!

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581033#Comment_118581033

Well purely from a practical standpoint, if you ban lines on a ball how would you enforce that? People draw all sorts on their ball, including lines so it would just be impossible to police.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581092#Comment_118581092

Only thing about all this - it would need direction from Golf Ireland or the Club . The reason ready golf worked , because it was by the industry at the same time.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581107#Comment_118581107

Obviously a big change. Could be done (IMO)

But it is a curse of the pro game and the viewing experience of golf.

spacecoyote

From a test the MyGolfSpy guys did recently. Over 900 putts hit, still a relatively small sample size maybe, but a reasonable test

FixdePitchmark

Does above mean 473 putts were made with the line

463 made without. ?

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581136#Comment_118581136

I don't think it can to be honest. People mark their ball with dots to identify it, do you ban that? Others use their initials. Can 'Ian' not put an 'I' any longer? Would you challenge a playing partner if you spotted a 'line'?

I don't think its a curse in the pro game at all, slow play is but that has nothing to do with lines. There are some who use lines and take the piss but they would do that regardless of a line being there. Rory, Rahm, JT off the top of my head do not use a line. Kevin Na is one of the slowest putters on tour and spends ages lining up putts, doesn't use a line as far as I'm aware.

FixdePitchmark

If that is the case for pros they are making about .3 of a gain per round - and for them that is not insignificant. In fact very.

If that was done with amateurs - I'd imagine it would be less.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581164#Comment_118581164

Think it's total putts to hole out from each distance, so took fewer putts to get ball in the hole from the distances

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581270#Comment_118581270

If that is the case it took more putts - anyway, poorly displayed outcome.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581285#Comment_118581285

Yes, it's not very well displayed or explained, but in essence it's saying a line makes you putt worse, the further you get from the hole. Ticks beside each distance to show the better option.

With line for 5', without for 10' and 20'. Bit more detail below:

3rd bullet amounts to f-all ultimately, 1 stroke every 6 rounds by their calcs

paulos53

Ask your greenkeeper to make the greens slower.

This article by the USGA reckons that increasing the green speed by 1 foot on the Stimpmeter increased the time of a round by 7 minutes for a 4ball. https://www.usga.org/course-care/turfgrass-and-environmental-research/research-updates/2018/the-impact-of-green-speed-on-pace-of-play.html

It makes sense when it comes to short putts, especially on downhill putts. On slow greens it is easier to just walk up to a 2 or 3 footer and knock it in. On a fast downhill putt, a golfer is going to take more care (and time) on lining it up and trying to get the pace just right

SeeMoreBut

The players who like to look at a putt from all angles.

Pace over line is more important for a pleb.

Chances are you won't be a million miles off if you get the pace right.

Wrong pace and you could be going through the whole process again.

In general to many people think they are pro's with their carry on but really they're not even on the same course. Mutton dressed as lamb

FixdePitchmark

That is amazing (even if I had my suspicions) - that the line makes you worse in certain instances. You are basically focused on the wrong thing. What Bob says.

Infoseeker1975

Like with all other shots be ready when you it is your turn to putt. My experience and yesterday was another example is that it is usually poor habit that causes it. We had 4 balls on the green, the closest one was 8ft from the hole. That person did not look at their putt until the other 3 had putted and in some cases holed out. Then he took a look one side, went half way, went to have a look the other side, another look half way on the way back and only then put the ball on the green. It easily took 60 secs and he is an average golfer off 12. Over a full round this could be 30 times which is 30 mins due to one player for something he could complete whilst he is waiting for his partners to play out. It is not playing fast, just being prepared.

srfc d16

I use a Truvis most of the time which obviously doesn't have a line but if I take another ball out of my bag that does have a line whether it be the name or an actual line I position the ball so that I cannot see it as it puts me off.

Slow play overall is annoying and I think it is more noticeable on the green because all the players are within a few yards of each other rather than on opposite sides of the fairway.

I would be curious how much worse/better some of the people that take an age to take a putt would be if they just got up and hit it because many of them are not particularly accurate at the moment. I find if they miss, on the next hole they take longer again to line it up with no better results. Sometimes too much time spent can make you overthink it and not swing freely

irish bloke

No patients by the sounds of it

Trampas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592207#Comment_118592207

Sounds like you’re the one who is why rush. Relax and enjoy the game as we’ll get there in the end

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118582320#Comment_118582320

This is it... As soon as you get on the green you should be eyeing up your putt... This might not be possible in all cases but 80-90% of the time it is possible... Bit of Ready Golf as well, if you are first one the green be looking at your putt as other people are coming in from closer ranges...

I got friendly slagging today cause I didn't congratulate a close chip. They knew I was concentrating on my shot...

Every now and then you might second guess and need another look, that should be the exception not the rule... We all know it, get a line and know the pace and see it into the hole... Generally you should have that while your partners are playing if you are not interfering... We see it, every week...

When summers come and people are in spike-less shoes standing on lines should be not so sacred... there were people standing on that line for hours before you... i am not saying be rude but if guy is holing out, seriously is he going to mess up your shot?

DuckSlice

I think the biggest issue with People being slow on the green is not putting their ball down until the person putting ahead of them has putted and marked their ball or finished out. As soon as anyone I'm playing with hits their putt and its my turn next I have my ball down and lining up while they are finishing up or marking their ball.

Another issue is the marking of short putts, anything under a putter length should be finished off if possible.

I don't use the line on the ball as i find it puts me off what i have seen from behind the ball, and i would be too picky making sure the line is bang on. I do think the line does slow people down, but if they are lining it up when someone else is putting then it wouldn't be an issue.

coillcam

For the most part, I've not experienced anything too slow bar the odd lad who thinks he's like DJ/Bryson stalking the green. Once the usual obvious things are observed, everything should be fine: putting your bag/trolley close to the next hole, having your line before it's your turn and playing out of turn when someone is in their bag or in trouble. Also on a Stableford, if you're not scoring pick up your ball and move on. Outside of the majors, I don't think the pace is too bad in my club bar 1 or 2 known offenders.

I did have a chuckle at a guy recently who waited until it was his turn to begin almost jogging around the green to get reverse and side views for a 30ft putt. The other two guys in the group gave a knowing look and smiled.

Motivator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581805#Comment_118581805

That’s nonsense. No point getting the pace right if you’re 6 inches out with your read.

I’ve played with the fastest players in our club and I’ve played with the slowest players in our club and not once has anyone’s displays on the greens bothered me. Putting is the most important and often most frustrating part of any round and if people want to take a few seconds more making sure of a putt then I’m fine with that. I’m a quick player from tee to green. I’ll walk up to my ball, pick a line, pick a club take one practice swing and hit.

Im not a confident putter at all so I take my time getting ready but I’ll be doing it as the others are either chipping in or hitting their putts. I don’t walk around the green checking the angles but I’ll spend a small bit extra on making sure I’m happy with my putt.

Yesterday I forgot to take my watch out of my bag until I was putting my putter in my bag walking to the 2nd hole. We teed off at 9.06 and at 9.13 the three of us had taken 6 putts between us and covered a 410y par 4 in 13 mins. I took my time on my first putt but how quickly we played the rest of the hole offsets that.

SeeMoreBut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593943#Comment_118593943

If you mean 6 inches to side of hole you are tapping in. Get your pace off you could be yards either side of hole

willabur

On the greens, the thing that annoys me is people not finishing out their putts. Putting a marker down for their sub 2ft putt. You inevitably end up with 4 taps ins which have the same line up procedure as mid to long rangers

willabur

BTW: I think there are far worse crimes vs time from tee to green

Russman

Not sure if this is a slow play thread or a slow putting one, Fix !😀

Personally I think banning the line on the ball is almost impossible to do, even though I'd get rid of it in a heartbeat if we could. Its all very well lining up the line but do you actually strike putts squarely out of the middle, so that they roll correctly in the first place ? Most guys I see doing the line thing come nowhere close to rolling it keeping the line straight. I read that MGS study and it was interesting, although I do vaguely remember a different one from a few years ago giving even more emphatic results in favour of no line, can't remember who ran it.

All that aside, I'm a fairly quick player and slow play irritates me to a degree, but I don't think I'd have putting as one of the main causes of slow play tbh. Ready golf is great too, but honestly you don't even need that for a round to be quicker. All it takes is being ready to hit when its your turn and not waiting to start your elaborate routine until its your turn. Its the silly little things like leaving your bag on the right side of the green or marking cards on the green, that all add up to an additional 20 mins on a round. Everyone hits bad shots and sometimes has to search, but even that's not such a big deal if the common sense things are being done. My one little indulgence would be to issue every group with a cattle prod to be used on anyone they see using Aimpoint 😁😁😁

You're dead right Fix about Rotella, he has some fascinating insights into putting. I love his anecdotes about the good young putter being convinced putting is hard and not to be so casual, by the bad, older putter. IMO instinctive is definitely the way to go with putting, its an art not a science.

AyeGer

More 1 and 2 putts and less 3 and 4 putts should speed things up. So improving would be an important factor.

redzerdrog

I would consider myself a fairly fast player, I play ready golf and get frustrated by slow play.

Unfortunately two of my regular 4 ball are particularly slow however neither use the line to line up putts on the green (I do). Where i find the issue though is the slowness to mark the ball and get it out of the way before others can putt. I would be marked, aligned and ready to putt while waiting on them just to mark their original ball.

So in my biased thinking the line isnt an issue, slow player are slow players

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595836#Comment_118595836

I'm coming across as an auld curmudgeon - I'm genuinely not 😂 - I just like a fast round. I just learnt a good bit about golf in the covid period. You played with different age groups and players and abilities.

Now don't get me wrong - there was horrendously slow walking, because , nobody was going anywhere - people were avoiding home and it was a general new lifestyle, to be out in open taking your time , playing golf.

But a few observations.

1) Hopefully the flagstick staying in, sticks - this will raise its head soon.

2) 9 hole was a revelation - people had time to go to clubhouse (when open) - and become less of a car park golfer , a curse of the new golf club generation.

3) The 20 to 40 year old generation - have got themselves wrapped up in far too serious a version of golf. The lack of a card and the more fun aspect was an eyeopener. There is something fundamentally wrong with the Irish and there obsession with club comps. I include myself here.

4) This generation again - definitely have brought too many layers into their game (IMO) - GPS , Equipment - ball - sequence - greens - GPS - laser -aps - you name it (trackman if they could). It is layer upon layer of over complication of what was a simple game. You are right , thank someone above, that aimpoint did not drift into the amateur game - it was touch and go for a while.

Maybe people are right - and the green is the wrong place to look - but it can be the most frustrating one. If you think about it - 2 mins extra on a green is 30 mins - maybe with this extra time, you can go in for a cup of something and a chat. I'm of the opinion all these layers upon layers that have come into the amateur game , make very little difference to the score. (Fair enough, if scratch or whatever)

While I'm on my rant - who was the dude who first used a poker chip - and what was he doing and who let him away with it 🤣

CalamariFritti

Never bothered with that line stuff. For starters pace is way more important than line. Secondly very few of us amateurs have such a pure stroke that putting becomes a game of geometry. Thirdly I believe your subconsciousness takes over half the time anyway.

Get a good read while the others are putting or chipping. Pick your line and then concentrate on a nice smooth move and pace alone. If you're organised you should have plenty of time for reading and cleaning your line. Shouldn't be any issue with pace of play.

Always make me laugh (inwardly) when someone takes forever once its their turn with everyone standing and watching, pitch mark repair (could have done that earlier), replaces the ball two or three times so that their painted on line points somewhere 'right' and then they leave it four foot short.

Rikand

I really must rejoin the boards.ie society, so I can go out in front of FdP and annoy him for a whole round :D

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596908#Comment_118596908

😂

One great thing about the society - is it is an escape from club golf. Never , ever, expect a fast or serious round.

In golf, there is club golf , casual golf and a full different category, Society.

Russman

Not sure if this has been posted previously

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/slow-play-does-make-you-score-worse-and-the-stats-that-back-it-up

totally agree with most of what you’re saying above Fix, and it’s not coming across as an auld curmudgeon at all. You see it in every sport though, where people are inspired by and imitate the top players. It might not have been too bad when it was Tiger at the top, but now they’re copying the likes of Cantlay or DeChambeau.

willabur

there is also the old adage that the first line you see when you get onto the green is the one you should take. I do think golfers over complicate things for themselves. I used to play with a nice lad in my course who is a very VERY average golfer, but he takes it hyper serious. Plumb bobbing or whatever it is called his putts, he is a terrible snatchy putting stroke, no amount of plumb bombing is going to help you pal

I think my most agregious crime against time on the course is practice swings, I am a very much a feel player. I take 3 or 4 practice swings until I can feel the club. I notice the pros alot of the time just get up there and hit it. Something to aspire towards

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596718#Comment_118596718

I agree with some of your points but I don't think any of these things are the cause of slow play. If you took them all away you would still have slow play IMO.

1. I don't like the flag being in for anything less than 20 ft personally, leaving the flag in would not speed up play in any significant way IMO. My regular playing partners are similar and we are not slow players, 18 holes is rarely worse than 4 hours and that would be in comps. Quicker again when playing casually.
2. Always loved 9 hole rounds and still do. Don't get why people treat 9 hole rounds as not legitimate for handicap or whatever. I typically only play 9 holes mid week and wouldn't have any interest in sticking around afterwards most times. I think when you've a family at home that's only natural. 2 hours gone is one thing, 3 hours is another. When I'm retired in my 60s its a much more realistic option.
3. I fully agree that Irish golfers are way too invested in club comps, I only play in them for handicap purposes and to get a game in at a decent time. I would disagree strongly with pinning this on that age cohort though. I'm 34 and find its generally those in the 55+ bracket who take the comps way too seriously. Anyone near the 20-40 bracket has a much more relaxed approach to them (and golf in general) in my experience.
4. Probably is an element of this but I don't see an issue with people wanting to play their best golf, if GPS or laser helps with that then go for it. Some people get too caught up on those things but if you took them away they'd find something else to fixate on. Trackman or launch monitors are important in learning your tendencies and distances. I use elements of aimpoint (not the full thing as I don't think its needed in amateur golf) but I do it while my playing partners are putting so that I'm ready to go when its my turn. I also don't do it for anything less than 6-8ft unless I know its a big break. You are pinpointing the greens but I don't think you've shown how 2 minutes can be cut on the greens.

I'll add one thing to the slow play debate that some might disagree with. A round of golf is going to take 4 hours, there's nothing worse than playing with someone who's trying to finish as quickly as possible IMO. If you turn up to a club comp at a peak time to play a round you have to accept its a minimum of 4 hours, moaning about it is infuriating and I don't know how anyone enjoys a round when they're sprinting around and taking no time over their shots. You say you could cut 30 minutes off a round but I just don't think that is at all a realistic number for the average four ball unless all low handicaps. 3hrs 30minutes for a four ball during a comp would only be possible if your out first and have little or no delays.

I don't agree that the 'layers' as you say don't change peoples scores, people have different priorities with the game, some are just happy to get out and play 18 holes. Others are trying to get their handicap down or be the best they can be and more again enjoy the coffee or pint afterwards, there's no 'right' way to do it and if a player thinks a 'layer' cuts a shot off their game then they shouldn't feel guilty about doing it (within reason, I'm not talking about Kevin Na taking 4 minutes to hit a putt).

I'd love to see some data on it, I use Arccos on my clubs for shot tracking so I'm sure they could put some numbers together for pace of play and average time per shot based on what they get from the sensors. Theres enough people use them worldwide to get some good figures. I'd guess I spend more time over a chip or a putt than an iron or driver for example, I wonder does that change based on handicap or skillset etc.

FixdePitchmark

@Ivefoundgod Couldn't disagree with anything you posted. Well , you have countered , so I'm disagreeing with myself 🙂. On the flag thing, it depends how people go about it. I can't see this happen too much , but if we have some lads with it in and some with it out. It is going to make for a joyous time on the greens. It will just add to those way too often events, where 4 guys are literally looking at each other on the green - waiting for someone to actually do something. I normally have to interject here with the line " well could someone do something", or I do something when I can.

I haven't given up thinking that 1 or 2 minutes per group can be saved on the green - but I have to accept that these things are small in the overall picture. The thing that people who have long routines do not consider - is the impact they are having on other peoples' rounds. There is a selfishness to golf - a particular selfishness to exceptionally long routines. It impacts on others.

I'd have to agree - there is nothing worse than a fool (I was one) - thinking the pace of the day will be their pace. They are the worst company and can literally kill a weekend away or a trip to a once in a life time course. I think if covid was good for anything it reduced the pace of life in many. I would appeal to some, rush back to the house guys , to have a think about that - the kids are actually grand - 30 mins in your life to have a chat in the clubhouse , is very important for your own personal well being , your own growth and mental health. But if rounds are 4.5 hours + - it is no wonder people are in a rush after.

The secret for me , is you need to adjust your pace to the reality of the day - you need to enjoy the time as much as possible and avoid frustration - but the photos above of guys sitting on the wheel is real. I've done it and seen it at the big courses.

From reading your post - you sound an exceptionally low handicap player. It is true - they kind of can do what they like and get a pass. Some of them are a hard watch , but if they are going around near par or whatever - (aimpoint away). But even the pros on TV are a hard watch and have almost brought the game to a standstill. The low amateurs are ultimately replicating the pro game.

Anyway - we will drive or putt on - I'm absolutely delighted with how successful the ready golf campaign was , this is when people were saying , it won't work , or is not golf or whatever. I think post covid and with courses full - a refresh of that is needed, as so many new people in the game - and lets be honest, a post covid lethargy in general.

I would love is a similar initiative / video campaign was done around the greens.

CowboyTed

Want to quicken up the game?

Put the PGA on a serious clock... They are way too lax... Some of the stuff is painful to watch... Playing at a certain pace should be part of the game, why can someone spend 5 min on a putt and another 30 secs from the same place. Pros cut it out, amateurs will follow..

Break80

I am one of your older golfers who enjoy the traditions of the game as much as the game itself.

My main aim is to keep pace with the group in front. You can keep your routines but walk quicker between shots, get to where you might have lost a ball and start your search if you are not in any playing partners eyeline. After 3 mins give up and play your provisional.

I would be in the horrors if a fella was putting out of turn on the green. If a fella is really slow putt out yourself and walk to the next tee box. He might get the message if he is last getting to the tee box every time.

Agree before your round re pin in or out. Also agree honour system. I think if you earned the honour you should have it.

Lads if you are not prepared to sacrifice 4 to 4.5 hours for a fourball round of golf be it society or club golf you should try get out first thing in the morning with likeminded players or late evenings by yourself.

There is nothing more off putting than playing with guys trying to break time records or constantly complaining about the group in front not moving fast enough.

FixdePitchmark

@ Break80 - I don't think it is an age thing at all. The slowest players out there can be the youngest.

On the honour thing - I don't think I have come across a guy at my club of any age, insisting on that in a good 4/5 years. This is clarified at the first tee by someone quickly saying - lads "ready golf". Notices up on first tee and all.

The problem with the honour thing - if a guy was last off the last green , marking the card etc - it isn't a great option.

I could be wrong and there could be an appetite to go back to that , but it is rare in sport or life you go back.

When you think how much has changed in golf - there was massive debate about lasers and gps at the time - and for the most part they have been a massive success, I would have been against them at the time - and people with both a Laser and GPS is all a bit daft in my eyes (myself included).

But - even the ancient R&A the custodians of our game and traditions have moved on.

https://www.randa.org/pace-of-play-manual/rules/2-management-practices/subrules/5-ready-golf#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20official%20definition,longer%20hitters%20have%20to%20wait

The general point I'm making is that club golfers have been instructed to not observe the honour system - so if they don't, it is not their fault.

Try not be in the horrors 🤣