Coercive and Controlling Behaviour

ManTheLight78

Looking for advice and other peoples experience of the following and in particular whether you feel it meets the threshold for going to An Garda Síochána to get an exclusion order. I have sought initial legal advice but need to arrange an appointment to go through it all and would like to know if anyone can help in the meantime.

Background

I am going to be sharing more about the martial struggles I have gone through and in particular coercive control I have experienced and caused by my wife and mother-in-law living with us full time while bringing up a stepdaughter and our own daughter.

However, coercive control may get brushed aside give that my wife is planning to take out a buy-to-let mortgage in her own name. Effectively giving her a clean slate!

The property is in my name and I have owned it for 6 years prior to the relationship starting with my wife. I pay the mortgage and all associated house costs (appliances, maintenance, utility bills etc.), she pays for kids private school, clothes some of the food etc.

Alienation

My wife uses parental alienation, including preventing children from spending time with their grandparents, from visiting friends’ houses and from participating in extracurricular activities;

- my daughter is 4 and a half years old and I have only been allowed to take her to the local shops 3 times in her lifetime. Never to the local park, to see family/friends/pick her up from school etc.

- my daughter has pleaded with my wife and I multiple times to be able to visit her cousins and uncle and auntie

- my parents rarely get to see their grand-daughters except for key celebrations. This Sunday she has said that the family will be going swimming (without me) instead of being able to make it to a birthday invite for relatives on my side of the family.

- my mother-in-law states that video calls with her uncle and nieces are a distraction for my daughter's routine that she has set.

- my mother-in-law states I should not talk or laugh with my daughter as it is distracting her from eating.

- my wife says that I should not make too much noise when playing with my daughter as it affects her sleep ins in the morning.

Isolating

isolating me from family and friends and refusing to interpret

(A) My Friends

- lost my best friend early on in the relationship and he didn't like something about her

- visited a foreign friend of mine early on in the relationship and they didn't like something about her

- was told by her previous mother in law that she is someone who does not take no as an answer

- tells me I need to spend more time with the family rather than acting as a single person going off and socialising with others or partaking in favourite sports (cycling, tennis, hiking) etc.

(A) My Family

- Foreign language is used at home in a way that prevents me being a part of the conversation

- Foreign language movies/tv shows are watched for Mother in Law's benefit which excludes me.

- Moved her mum in 2017 when her mum's relationship broke down and she couldn't secure social housing elsewhere. This was only supposed to be temporary.

- I receive double the arguments, silent treatments and rules from my wife and mother-in-law.

Monitoring

Monitoring my time

- says I spend too much time at weekends on maintaining the house and catching up on personal care (between long working week and not having someone to do the work for me as my wife's mother does hers for her)

- says that I spend too much time working yet told me to go for a higher paid job and greater prospects.

- says I spend too much time on the computer, technology and shopping. Just different personalities and interests. She just wants something that works whereas I want top quality and performance.

Controlling

Taking control over aspects of my everyday life, such as where I can go, who I can see, what to wear and when I can sleep.

- insists that I continue to sleep by the window in our bedroom despite only being able to exit by pushing myself up and over the end of the bed.

- says that she is a night owl whereas I am an early bird but I must wait for family to finish watching late night movies in our bedroom, the glow of her tablet, the loud sound of the TV etc.

- criticises how I dress 

- enforces a lot of subjective rules around cleanliness, odours, housekeeping, food smells

Putting down

Repeatedly putting me down such as telling me that I am worthless; enforcing rules and activity which humiliate, degrade or dehumanise me

- tells me that my anxiety, asthma & gout are not real and that it's because we have low grade consultants and GPs in the Irish Health service.

- my wife tells me that I am losing it, it's all in my head and I am to blame for everything.

- my wife claims that I am a fraud and she was not aware that I would become a different person despite me breaking down early (before marriage and daughter being born) on in the relationship to inform her that I was taking anti-anxiety medication.

- prior to my mother-in-law moving in we had a lot of fun as a family, now there are a lot of rules being imposed on everyone and a tense atmosphere in our home.

- keeps telling me that I have to earn more and rise more in my career despite not following her own advice and having the full support of her mum in doing so.

- humiliating me with numerous posts on Facebook to try and paint a picture of reverse coercive control that my friends and family can see.

Financing

Financial abuse including control of finances, such as only allowing me a punitive allowance.

- has told me that unless I hand over full control of my salary then it's not going to work

- does not bear any of the risk of ownership of a house e.g. mortgage repayments, utility bills, maintenance and appliances

- my wife picks and chooses what she wants to spend her money on and does not share her savings with me

- my wife has told me that despite having purchased my house (in my name, renovated it and continued to pay for it as if I am single) that if I do not come up with the finances to extend it so that everyone (including her mother-in-law) has enough space to live. 

Undermining

Intentional undermining my role as a partner, spouse and parent

- only allows effectively supervised (either my wife or her mother are present) visits with my daughter as I am not allowed to take her anywhere without them

- has told me not to join school WhatsApp parents and guardians groups as she feels they are for mum's only.

- will not allow me to pickup my daughter(s) from school despite previously allowing 2/3 times with my step-daughter.

- my mother-in-law is taking my place as a parent in the family 

- my mother-in-law is now a third person in our relationship

- we do not act like a normal family as my wife goes to her mum instead of me when enquiring about the kids or sharing information about their wellbeing and their activities.

- arranging family holidays that I cannot participate in due to known work commitments and then proceeding to leave me behind.

- when I am on annual leave, I am tasked with chores, house work and attic clearance.

- keeps telling me that I have the mindset of a single man and not a family man despite having had a fantastic family unit when it was just my wife, my daughter-in-law and I.

- my mother-in-law tells me not to talk to my own daughter while she is eating as it distracts her too much

- my wife tells me I'm making too much noise having fun with our daughter while she is having a sleep-in

MTL78

Apologies for the length of the thread, however, Boards Moderator insisted on this format rather than individual threads.

Big Bag of Chips

@ManTheLight78 Personal Issues is an advice forum.

You need to ask advice in order for posters to be able to help you. I have deleted your threads because they are all copies of the same topic. Please only use one thread, but you must outline what you are looking for advice on. This is not a discussion forum, it is specifically for seeking advice.

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549074#Comment_118549074

I respect your decision, and have put the ask first and foremost on this thread in case it is not obvious. Whilst the threads did relate to the same topic they were covering individual sub-topics as otherwise the thread becomes unwieldly in size and will not garner the same attention / focus on reading each sub-topic fully.

Big Bag of Chips

@ManTheLight78 the Forum Charter asks that posters not start multiple threads. The regular posters in this forum are very good, and can offer advice and help posters to pick apart their issues. They simply will not read and reply to 6 threads where the advice will overlap. The advice would be pretty much the same across all sub-topics. Indeed having so many threads open would be counterproductive and disruptive, as you would have seen, with posters questioning the need for individual threads.

We will leave this thread open and you can outline the issues you have and posters will advise steps you can take.

XsApollo

My advice .

number 1 if my mother in law told me to not be laughing with my child or anything for that matter she wouldn’t be coming back into my house , never mind living in it.

get her out.

I don’t think your wife can buy a house and think you have no claim to it,

you are married so it is yours also.

and It’s going to work in your favour.

the best thing you can do is actually own another property.

a lot of marriages break down and the main issue is making 2 places work, usually to the point of not being able to afford.

So I would help her buy another and encourage her.

then when it’s bought kick her out or get out yourself.

My advice is document everything, and apply for full custody.

Jequ0n

So you have seen through her behaviour and are cataloging the items. What are you planning on doing next though?

And how does she react if you “break” these rules of hers, if I may ask?

Caranica

OP you were quick to come back at the mod who reminded you of the charter, do you stand up to your wife and mother in law?

Do you love your wife? You clearly love your daughter but the unhealthy situation she is being brought up in is doing her untold damage in her formative years. It needs to end.

I can't see that you're getting anything out of this relationship so why are you still in it?

There are support organisations out there. AMEN is now Men's Aid, there's no charge to talk to them. Then talk to a solicitor.

The key thing will be to prevent your wife taking your daughter out of the country without your permission. Get that formalised now, I've seen the devastation caused when a parent takes a child to live abroad without agreement, a neighbour is going through it with his ex wife.

Once you've that sorted, then you can worry about the house etc.

http://www.mensaid.ie

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549172#Comment_118549172

Thanks for your thoughts! I hear you on the mother-in-law. If you knew me you would know that I would not stand for this for a second from anyone else. It's a case of the classic sales pitch: my mum will move in and it will be the dream that all other parents could only wish for: she'll get the kids up in the morning, feed them, bring them to school and repeat the same at the end of the school day (which she continues to do by the way). My wife and I can happily get on with our busy professional lives etc. etc. The reality is that it's like a constrictor snake where the mother-in-law three follows the 3 steps of money laundering: placement (she moved in following a failed relationship, with no savings, on social due to injury preventing work - I was hardly going to say to my wife it's not my problem), layering (little by little the "she won't interfere in our relationship" subsides to she says what's best for our children and my wife supports this as she is not going to challenge the way she was brought up), and integration (she's taking on your role as a 3rd/replacement parent).

Hopefully the buy-to-let does work in my favour, however, the size of the pots in terms of positive equity are going to be worlds apart when splitting the assets.

As it is going to be a buy-to-let mortgage, I know she is going to be coming to me shortly to ask that I sign a non family home declaration. Yet I know while she might make out that it is for her mother in law, in reality it is going to be a family home which she will also move into. I almost feel as though I should ask her to do an exchange if she is going to leave/separate to this new home and ask her to sign a declaration that our current home will no longer be the family home. Chances of her signing though...

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549369#Comment_118549369

Thank you, I have been procrastinating with this for some time as I have only realised how caught up in the control that I am. This is my first time to do so online/offline so I may be too late. I will need to get a handwritten diary/journal in a lockbox (thanks for an action to take today).

Big Bag of Chips

You need to speak to a solicitor. Nobody can advise you on the signing of anything. On the phrasing of any property as the non family home. It looks like you are going to be separating, and it sounds like that will be the best for everyone. You will get access with your children, without your mother-in-law present so will e able to do as you please with them.

But get yourself a solicit. Your wife will have one and will be getting advice. Make sure you do the same.

Furze99

That's some long list... strikes me that there maybe something of a clash of cultures & cultural/ family values here? Best avoided imho, some couples make it work and others fall into fierce strife.

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549394#Comment_118549394

I have stored up all the items but not recorded them/the incidents on a daily basis (an action for today). I have just had a kick-off meeting with my solicitor this week - he was very frank with me in saying be prepared to hand over 40-50% of my assets as I have the larger income and assets. However, I only mentioned one example of the coercive control, being the most important, the love for my daughter and the example where I have been unable to take her to the shops (apart from a handful of times)/park/relatives/school/anywhere really. I need to be ready for my return appointment and get the most out of it. The justice system, in terms of evidence, sets a really high bar though...looking for the physical/domestic abuse to kick in whereas this is a high level of emotional and mental abuse.

When I "break" the rules, I get anger, hissing, argument, tutting, silent treatment from not one but both my wife and her mother.

Jequ0n

I agree that the solicitor is the best and only cause of action regarding the separation and property issues.

People in this forum should be able to provide help regarding the dynamics in your family though. Unfortunately people can often be dismissive when a man faces a domestic abuse situation.

I think your biggest problem is that you seem to have two people pitted against you in the home, so it will be difficult to counter a majority. Maybe consider recoding conversations if you feel like your words might be getting twisted.

Hannibal_Smith

Prepare whatever documents your solicitor asked you to bring. In the same way you've done here have examples ready of the various elements of coercive control ready.

An investment property is not a family home and a declaration confirming this is all that can be provided. You will have received legal advice before signing it and your solicitor is the best person to talk to about it. However, mention the proposed purchase when you meet your solicitor next week and ask their advice on whether buying an investment property is the best idea at this time.

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549691#Comment_118549691

Thank you Mod, I have engaged a solicitor this week due to the escalation in terms of the effect on my relationship with my daughter and looming separation. The Coercive Control was only briefly mentioned in terms of the effect on the relationship with my daughter.

Interesting point on access to my daughter, I have seen how my wife and her mother operate with my step daughter. The poor father never stood a chance until October 2021 when a judge in the family court saw through the long list of excuses being rolled out on a continuous basis over the previous years as to why my stepdaughter couldn't make the access: not feeling well, COVID, being scared etc. My mother in law would continue to pull up at school to collect when he tried to pick his daughter up as per the access agreement so as to make my stepdaughter feel like my mother in law was there as the "better" option. I supported my wife in all her court appearances for access, maintenance etc but when we left court that day I had lost all faith in her! My stepdaughter is beautiful I should mention by the way - she was a gift and I have known her since she was 3 year sold.

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549700#Comment_118549700

You're right, there is an element of cultural clashing/family values, however, I have lived abroad, studied & worked in a foreign language) and would see myself as open and accepting of diversity. Tbh I need the excitement of diversity in life! My wife and mother in law like to view a man's role as bread winner and battler to drive the family forward but know their role in terms of the children and the house i.e. don't get involved. I have always wanted a family and to be present as a father! I do feel there are a number of examples here that are fundamentally flawed particularly as regards the relationship with my daughter and the disregard for me as a person (I am strong but I have my weaknesses like all) - I don't see how culture/family values can justify that.

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549766#Comment_118549766

Thank you - that's a good summary and we're on the same page! The problem at this stage is that I don't stand a chance with the 2 against 1 scenario. Unfortunately, if 1 of the 2 goes they both go!

Recording conversations is interesting. I am struggling to have a conversation without monosyllabic responses and I guess she must be thinking the same even though that has not been the case to date!

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549788#Comment_118549788

Thank you! For the initial kick-off meeting I went with a free form conversation approach, however, this would not be my normal approach in these types of meetings. I get your point on the investment property - it can't go ahead without being a non family home even though she has plans to turn it into one.

Hannibal_Smith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549921#Comment_118549921

A family home is where a married couple live together.

At the end of the day you are working on assumptions. Stop and take a breath and deal with the here and now.

Your solicitor will tell you all you need to have to back up what you're saying. They're experienced in dealing with these situations. So before doing anything talk to them and follow their advice.

Big Bag of Chips

If she buys a house with the intention of separating from you and moving there with the children then that is her right. It also sounds like a very sensible decision on her part. She will have a right to a portion of the "family home". The home you have lived in as a family. As you owned the house prior to your relationship with her then she may not be entitled to 50% but she will be entitled to a portion if she can prove that she has contributed to the cost of running and maintaining the house as a family home with you. Which she should be able to do fairly easily.

If she has plans to buy a house and live in it, then this should be a positive for you. You get to stay in your own home, your children get to have access with you, or you may apply for 50/50 joint custody in a home they are familiar with.

To be honest, separating seems like a positive step for you both. Both going your separate ways including her buying her own house seems like a very reasonable suggestion. It's unclear, do you want to separate from her? Because you seem to see her plans to move on as something negative and vindictive. If you want yo separate, and feel it's a good decision then you should focus on that. Very few people come out of separation without feeling hard done by. If your wife is looking at buying her own house and funding it herself then I think that's a very good outcome for you both.

Speak to your solicitor about separating, and separating your current assets. As your wife she has legal right to some of your assets, pension etc. Same as you have to hers.

At the end of the day you are working on assumptions. Stop and take a breath and deal with the here and now.

This is important. I understand in your situation you are in a bit of a tail spin, but you have time to work things out, to discuss the situation and your options with your solicitor. Slow down, think about what would be the best possible outcome for you, and then negotiate.

The issue is that a parent who will not allow the other to take their child to the shops, and tries to control basic interactions will not allow access after separation. In this case, the OP has outlined already that she has tried to deny access to the father of her older child until the court intervened.

The grandmother is part of the problem, as I suspect this was probably her parenting style, which her daughter is now adopting, as you say she is even dictating to you how to interact with your child. This cycle needs to be broken - for your daughter's sake.

OP - another piece of advice I would give is to remind all involved that you are your daughter's joint guardian (not her grandmother) and you have an equal say to decisions over where the child lives, education etc. It is NOT her right to just buy another house and assume she can move your child there without your permission. (Have you ever applied for guardianship of your step-daughter? You do have the right to apply for guardianship of a step-child, if you wanted to).

laoisgem

I'm sorry OP but from just looking at both treads you started I think your only looking for coercive control after the fact.

You were happy to go along with your mother in law (or wicked mother in law as you called her) when it suited you, coercive control only came into the picture after you learned you wife was looking to buy another property.

Big Bag of Chips

I've read your thread in the Separation and Divorce forum where you say your wife has no access to your money. Yet here you are claiming she controls all the finances and gives you a punitive allowance. I suggest if you are going to a judge claiming abuse and coercive control that you don't exaggerate any part of your claim. Your claims can be easily picked apart and discredited.

It's still not clear: do you want to separate from an abusive spouse or are you annoyed that she is planning to leave you and looking for revenge?

Ash.J.Williams

Get a good solicitor and draw up the doomsday plan so when it happens you are ready for battle to ensure the kids remain in the state

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118550887#Comment_118550887

Spot on for the first 2 points and thank you!

Reminding all involved will just be met with deaf ears or a long list of excuses. I'll ask the solicitor about that point on moving our child without my permission. My solicitor can be quite frank in thinking along the lines of 'resistance is futile.' He has reminded me that the mother is deemed to be the primary carer by the Irish courts albeit it's actually the grandmother who is performing this role while my wife runs her own professional business (limited to 9-17:30) and yet claims she has to do everything when it comes to the kids as I work long hours (9-19:00/20:00) also as a professional). It's hard but I have seen other professional couples succeed without handing over their parenting duties outside of work hours. Also, when it comes to settlement my wife may push for more, the more I resist.

The guardianship of my step-daughter did come up at various points along the way but perhaps we were ill informed in believing that we needed the consent of her father. Thank you, I'll check this albeit it may be too late.

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551404#Comment_118551404

It's more that coercive control has been creeping in over the years and through love I have often let it go/procrastinated rather than pursuing it. In particular, as there are now criminal implications and I still love my wife and do not consider her to be at the level of a criminal but I may not be seeing correctly as I am the subject.

The white washing of coercive control upon purchase of another property is the reason why it has brought it to the fore. Parental alienation will continue but the courts will deem it to be a good solution to remove the coercive control and draw a line under it. Whereas, I am left with the damage done and handing over 50% of assets including having to remortgage to keep my property/home afterwards. I had hoped originally that the property was being purchased using my mother in law's very recent inheritance but my wife has withdrawn interest in plans for our own property that we were working on. I had hoped we could get back to being the fantastic family we were with my wife and stepdaughter before my mother-in-law moved in.

Big Bag of Chips

The Children and Family Relationships Act 2015 (effective since 18 January 2016) permits a child to have more than 2 guardians where such an arrangement is in the best interests of the child. Step-parents, for example, can now apply for guardianship status in respect of the child provided they fulfil the following criteria:

(a) The applicant is married to or in a civil partnership with the biological parent, and

(b) The applicant has shared parental responsibility for the child’s day-to-day care for a period of more than 2 years;

(c) The making of the order is the best interests of the child

You can apply for guardianship, but it will only be granted if it is deemed in the best interest of the child. And you will need the consent of the father. Can I ask for what reason you would want guardianship? The child has 2 parents, one of whom you claim uses alienation to keep the child away from the other parent. You also agree to supporting her in this, until you realised that it was wrong. I'm sure if you apply for guardianship the father will strongly object to it on the grounds that you and your wife are attempting to remove him from his child's life.

What do you hope to gain by becoming a guardian, and is it worth the inevitable upset, and distress it will cause to the child's father by having to go to court against you both (again)? Would you be happy for your mother-in-law to be granted guardianship of your child without your consent?

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552530#Comment_118552530

While she does not have access to my money. I pay for the house (groceries, mortgage, maintenance, all utility bills, my car etc). She pays for the kids' private schools, clothing, some groceries, her car & her mother's car). She has asked for all of my salary to be put under her control. She now wants me to pay towards schools and cover the costs of significant repairs of my mother in law's car.

I am hoping that by interacting with everyone on the forum that they can help with their own experiences, much like your good self, to pick apart and discredit where they feel is the case and I can respond.

I still love my wife but through love you become blind when subject to control/abuse. Not about revenge just preventing a white wash of the damage done in particular as regards my daughter.

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552553#Comment_118552553

I'm onto it and I'm getting a plan together. I have a well experienced (>30 years) and straight talking solicitor.

ManTheLight78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553709#Comment_118553709

No, that was something put forward my another boardsie to consider but you have confirmed what I originally said - it requires consent from the father which he will not give. I supported her in court appearances and I wouldn't insinuate that I agreed to what she was doing with the access but I was not prepared to lose my own relationship over it until I became the victim myself. Karma perhaps.