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Russian military exercise in the EEZ

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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,695 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Can people put a 'hold' on part of international waters if they give a heads up beforehand, or is it first come, first serve?

    If the Irish fishermen set up shop there and are going about their usual fishing business, can the Russians come along and boot them out given they said they were going to use the spot? Or would it be tough luck, the Irish fishermen were there first?

    If they came along and booted the Irish fishermen out who had a right to be there, you would imagine the Irish Defense Forces would be under some obligation to protect them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,949 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    They are indeed international waters, but also the internationally recognised EEZ of Ireland. As such we are arguably entitled to protect it as an environment and an ecosystem, even moreso than the Russians are entitled to pull up and dump a load of dodgy metals and chemicals into it from a shoot.

    Fair play to the Fisherman wanting to exert their livelihoods. Yes the Government will be obliged to protect them, 4 patrol ships ought to do it and then the Americans will also be keen to keep an eye on proceedings and assist one of their deepest and oldest friends from Russian intimidation, two destroyer task groups ought to do that (Flagship USS The Sullivans seems appropriate).

    Should become a busy little patch of real estate for a few days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭Mav11


    If they came along and booted the Irish fishermen out who had a right to be there, you would imagine the Irish Defense Forces would be under some obligation to protect them.

    I would have to agree. I find it difficult to envisage a situation where the Irish Navy would just stand by and not be obligated to offer protection.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Psychlops




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Well if the reports are true that are going around about only 1 ship avavilable the navy will be needing to re actavite ASM to get 4 ships to sea!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Doubtful.

    ASM ceased to exist 17 years ago.

    If you mean the Naval Service Reserve, they have a strength of 200, max, few of which have all the technical skills required to operate a Naval vessel. While you may have enough to cover the deck watchkeeping roles, you lack Engineering officers, technicians or other trades. You may be able to get it to sea, but you won't be able to get it going if anything breaks down.

    Such is the state of the Defence forces, unfortunately.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,701 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Tis grand, the Russians bring a tug everywhere with them. We could just ask nicely for a tow back to Haulbowline.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,701 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    At least someone is keeping an eye on crazy Ivan




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,701 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Here's another bit of kit we could use and perhaps even justify the cost of. With big EEZ's come great responsibility...




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    There will most definitely be a sub or two out in front that flotilla



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,701 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    Russian I would say, a U2 took off from RAF Fairford yesterday and disappeared of ADS I would reckon its over the Atlantic or Ukraine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Stick a couch in the back, paint a huge tricolour on it and tell the minister it's a replacement for the Lear. Its a fantastic bit of kit and seems to have become the Default ASW/Maritime patrol aircraft worldwide.

    Plus, it's a Boeing airliner other than the contents of the fuselage, so the techies will get great experience before they depart for the inevitable civvy airline job..

    NZ are also replacing their Orions with the type, I believe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Well lets just avoid the minor issue of Boeing's QA for the last couple of years. While the P seems to have avoided it, their tanker project is still stumbling along, as are other projects for them. While the P8 would be a massive upgrade given the order book at the moment when could they realistically come into service?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Norway got approval to order 5 from the US in Dec 2016, Ordered them in March 2017 and the first was delivered in November last.

    So By that timeline if we ordered it tomorrow, the first one would be arriving in 2027.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Did anyone see the reports of military grade drones spotted over Swedish sites and are Stockholm , at the time Russian ships were sailing close by



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner




  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    Quite rightly the Russians don't give a monkey's about this made up arbitrary EEZ BS.

    It's international waters, and they have given fair notice of intent to use the area for routine training. Breaking zero laws and posing zero threats to any nation.

    It's all western cold war style propaganda, designed to paint a particular narrative. The amount of people who fall for this very obvious script (including our own EU puppets like Coveney in govt) is alarming. Meanwhile the EU and NATO seemingly think they hold jurisdiction over anything they wish. Russia are quite within their rights to shrug their shoulders, and say tough sh!t none of your business basically.

    This is all mostly led by the Americans again as per usual. Trigger happy and just itching to pick another fight asap. A good rule of thumb in international relations: If the yanks are telling you something is an issue, assume they're lying or completely wrong and do the opposite of whatever they're pushing for. They've messed up the world beyond all comprehension over the past 20 years, and they are the last group of people we should be listening to right now. (them or their little war dog the UK either)

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I am being sarcastic, i was elduding to the point that according to some media we can only put 1 ship to sea that if its that bad not only would the modern naval reserve be to short we would need to bring back ASM



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    The Law around the EEZ gives rights to the resources as claimed, and the right to police activity within your EEZ. All ships have a right to innocent passage in all waters. To carry out a live fire exercise of unique location within the EEZ is not "innocent", nor is it intended to be. The appropriate response is to observe as much as possible what is too transpire either by invitation or by our own resources. We used to have primary, secondary, and IFF on at least one ship. The Porcupine Trough is a confluence of at least a dozen trans-Atlantic cables and an unsuitable firing range. The waters in the area are open to normal legal activities and these now may be excluded by the actions of one nation.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭reg114



    I agree the yanks have meddled far too much in global affairs since the second world war. They were painted as saviours when they got involved in WW2 and they have since used this reputation to push their agenda in Vietnam, the middle east and south America to name but a few of many many regions. In this instance I'm a little bemused that Biden is getting involved, given he doesnt want a war at all.Part of this I think stems from the fact the EU are utterly useless at standing their ground. They failed to get involved 20 years ago when the conflict in Yugoslavia threatened to destabilise the whole region, they turned their backs on the annexation of crimea and are now taking a backseat to America regarding the build up of Russian troops on the EUs doorstep. Ukraine is looking to the EU for support here and we are sitting on our hands. The EU imposing limp sanctions on Russia while simultaneously importing huge amounts of Russian gas tells you all you want to know about their appetite for conflict. Russia knows full well the EU needs it. Putin is brazen enough to push his luck because he's been getting away with it for years. Quite honestly much of Putin's motivation stems from his desire to repossess the border states lost after the break up of the USSR. This is a man who after 2 decades in power is preoccupied with vanity and with cementing his legacy. No greater legacy would be than to see the USSR reunited, Belarussia is already essentially a Russian state, and Ukraine would be a huge scalp to add to that. The question is whether Putin has the stomach for conflict if things really escalated. Do the Americans have the stomach for conflict, I dont think so. Does the EU have stomach for conflict? based on precedent, no. Can Russia afford a war ?

    As far as Russia's incursion into the EEZ its mischief making and careless at best. I disagree that Ireland needs to bolster its military capabilities because it would cost billions and we simply dont have that money and dont face any threats to justify the spend. If any nation even thought about threatening our security the Americans and British would be all over it in a heartbeat.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To be fair, if they can get us a version with palletised radar operator panels & seating, we’d have solved both the troop transport and ASW problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    A functioning First line reserve would be a huge advantage at times like this.

    The Hundreds who have left the NS in recent years because, in most cases they couldn't afford to stay, but otherwise loved the job.

    You trained them, they know their way around, & procedures, may need a refresher every year or so on the basics, but otherwise, they can slot back into their old job aboard ship, once their current employer is suitably compensated for their absence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Those that say the Russian action is legal must read the law of the Sea of which Russia is a signatory since 12th March 1997 and acceded to the Convention on the same day. The Law of the Sea provides that No State can validly purport to subject any part of the High Seas to it's sovereignty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    So, it looks like this is going to come down to the usual thing: money.

    A recent report said that Russia's wealthiest people hold as much in assets outside of Russia as the entire rest of the population does inside its borders. Therefore, they are particularly vulnerable to sanctions.

    Secondly, the threat to kill the NORD 2 pipeline would mean a major blow for Russia' foreign currency earning power. If it is also closed out of trading in dollar oil markets, that would fundamentally alter its economic base.

    While it would also mean half of Europe's gas supply, majorly affecting Germany, would be gone overnight, there is certainly scope for the kinds of measures that would make someone like uncle Vlad take notice.

    If all of his backers, who hold enormous wealth in trust, allowing certain figures plausible deniability, were to suddenly feel the international pinch and not be able to buy flats in Knightsbridge, or football teams in the Premiership, then things might change. As the Cuban Missile Crisis showed, Russia is not beyond taking a public kicking if it means a back channel deal that is worth more (the Jupiters in Turkey).

    THe naval exercises are merely a distraction to show Nato its weaknesses in its own backyard. The world watches to see what Russia has to gain from an invasion that would be costly, dirty and crossing a Rubicon. Not to mention the ghastly human tragedy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Good post!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Psychlops




  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    The only problem is, the EU and NATO have blinked first here. And Russia knows it too.

    Europe and Germany in particular, stand to lose far more from the pipe line than Russia. This explains Germany's reluctance to send much support to Ukraine, and as leaders of the EU this sends a very strong message to Russia about just how much resolve they would have in an extended stare down. Russia can play cat and mouse with this for years, and nobody inside the EU has the appetite for that. The US has pushed Germany to make some tough statements, but they clearly don't have the stomach for it.

    Then of course we have the even bigger issue of NATO's dwindling foothold, and why they are so desperate to get into Ukraine as a matter of extreme urgency. Germany has been closing down NATO bases at a rapid pace over the last few years, as they clearly do not enjoy being piggy in the middle of America's warmongering efforts around the world. There is quite a significant under current of Anti-American and anti-NATO sentiment in the country now, as you can even see with one of Germany's top naval commanders going completely off script with comments on Putin and Ukraine.

    Putin and Russia know this is a tipping point in history. They will talk up diplomacy efforts, but they are unlikely to back down from their key demands knowing just how effective their strategy has been in a very short space of time. Unfortunately, this likely means Ukraine will be left in limbo for many years to come. But a de-stabilized Ukraine gives Russia the de-facto buffer zone they desire anyway, as there is zero chance of a state in such disarray being brought into NATO. With so many pro-russian separatist groups spread throughout the country, Putin can keep the status quo pretty much indefinitely if he wants to.

    Sad for Ukraine. But at the same time, important to stand up to the bullying Americans. Nobody wants American imperialist domination in their back yard. Reducing American influence is one of the keys to long term stability and peace in the region.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    If your goal is to disrupt submarine fibre all you need is one sub. No need to send surface vessels. This is provocatory, not tactical.



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