Roadworks, do council have any liability?

mk7r

Hi posting on behalf of a friend, there are ongoing road works in their town for circa 2 years. A new pole was installed without a sign or any markings in what is imo a dodgy enough position.

They were turning right and didn't see the new pole in the dusky condions. Picture attached of their approach direction.

They are looking to suck it up but it looks slightly dodgy to me, any opinions are very welcome.

kravmaga

I would imagine the council have the responsibility for the road works, usually they sub- contract out the project.

In your photo there is a workman in hi vis vest, you could have asked whats the name of the company when taking the photo?

Ring the local council and send an email with a photo of the pole.

ohnonotgmail

is the pole on a footpath?

fritzelly

Was the pole installed in the middle of the road?

Else I'm finding it difficult to understand how its the councils fault

mk7r

It's not a footpath, and if you look at the pic it is kind of in the middle of the road, it makes the turn very tight.

The damage is about 4k worth so it's worth asking the question.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463166#Comment_118463166

There is like a dozen poles in that pic - all on the footpath

ohnonotgmail

I may be seeing things that arent there but there is a bevel that marks the distinction between the road and foot path as I have crudely marked below. the whole of that cobbled area certainly isnt the road and it is just a question of whether the pole is on the footpath portion or the road portion. To me the pole is on the footpath portion.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463233#Comment_118463233

Pavement looks basically level with the road - not seeing any bevel

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463233#Comment_118463233

Thats just the photo there is nothing there, it's like a hybrid road and walkway how it's all designed

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463300#Comment_118463300

that whole area certainly is not all part of the road. there must be a demarcation between road and footpath somewhere. where the guy is standing there is some sort of cover that would be on the footpath rather than the road. there is also the point that they hit a pole while going at what should have been quite a slow speed.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463320#Comment_118463320

so where does the road end and the footpath begin?

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463320#Comment_118463320

Whats the town/road - so we can see on google maps

Weepsie

The footpath is clearly the dotted squares and the pole is in line with them, and not on the 🛣️

whomitconcerns

To my mind the poles look to be at least a foot from the roads edge. I wouldn't think they have a leg to stand on. If it's in the centre of the town, presumably there would be done sort of lighting also?

Ok now I see what you meant..I was looking down the road... Looking again now. 😁

Yeh... Is not perfect... But as a driver you should be looking for obstacles.. So I still think they would have no comeback

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463329#Comment_118463329

There is no marking of road ending and footpath beginning, it's a hybrid design as in lots of town centers now, it's a dual use space.

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463351#Comment_118463351

The road is also made of the dotted squares after you make the right turn, it's not separated out into road and footpaths

theblackstuff

looking at the photo, the curves drawn in earlier are indeed the boundary between footpath and shared surface.

If you look carefully at the surface between hi viz man and the pole you can see tactile paving. Its yellow or buff, indicating an uncontrolled crossing point.

The pole is indeed on the footpath portion, probably for a stop or yield sign.

It could have been designed a bit better with a clearer boundary between the footpath and shared surface.

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463399#Comment_118463399

There is absolutely no boundry there, the paving is consistent all the way as you can see in this pic.

Some of the grouting is just newer than the rest as they were doing it today.

I'm standing in the middle of the road that was being turned onto in this pic

magicbastarder

i think the first photo is much more flattering than the second - the first clearly just misses showing the wall of the building, and how tight they would have cut across the footpath. taking that right around a blind corner at enough speed to do 4k worth of damage - in an urban area, where you have to drive in the expectation of meeting pedestrians - does not speak highly of your friend's driving.

AndrewJRenko

Lucky it wasn't a child I suppose. Has your friend considered a trip to the opticians? Maybe they should ask someone to give them a lift?

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463332#Comment_118463332

Looks like Tramore, off Broadstreet or Strand Street?

mk7r

It's difficult to get it across on picture but it's very tight to make the turn, speed was very slow as all witnesses can attest to.

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463476#Comment_118463476

It is indeed, good eye

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463476#Comment_118463476

Yeah had found it but old images

3 Strand St - Google Maps

mk7r

The construction worker mention there were already multiple accidents there, what I'm mainly interested in is, is there legal requirements as to signpost, location, markings etc when a new pole is erected

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463411#Comment_118463411

the area highlighted is tactile paving that indicates a crossing point. that puts the pole on the footpath. you have to drive over the footpath to hit that pole.

HalfAndHalf

There’s a closed road sign there so should it even be used currently?

To be honest if I was driving down there I’d assume it was a pavement, not saying it is but if it is a ‘shared whatever’ then it’s a balls of a design and I can’t even think that benefit it has over not just having a road and two pavements either side. Other than causing a lot of confusion!

SweetCaliber

Pretty sure that's one way now coming up strand st, i.e not supposed to turn right. That's probably what the pole is for, just no sign on it yet.

fritzelly

Why has it even been paved when there was a road to start with?

delly

Put aside the fact that your mate should really have paid better attention, I do believe there is a case to answer for from the council. The demarcation between road and path is poor, the road should be closed off fully if not in a position to receive traffic, the pole is light grey in colour and easily blends into the background, it should have some high vis markings while awaiting it's sign. Councils have departments that draw up H&S rules for such construction etc. I would start there and then once they are made aware, see what new safety methods are introduced at the site.

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463857#Comment_118463857

It will be one way but right now the other end is closed so you must use this way to gain access.

It is a bit of a balls of a design, it was much wider beforehand with a clear footpath Vs road distinction

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463839#Comment_118463839

The road closed sign just indicates the other end is closed as they are also working on that. It will be one way when finished so the turn that caused this accident can't be made, but for now is the only route of access.

It was and always has been a road, never a footpath.

HalfAndHalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463976#Comment_118463976

Well on the basis you know that’s happening, sounds about right what’s been said that the pole is in the position to have a no turn sign.

It’s not an impossible turn so I can’t see any liability on the council.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463976#Comment_118463976

out of curiosity what part of your friends car did the pole hit? the middle of the bumper? a glancing blow on the drivers side?

SweetCaliber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463962#Comment_118463962

Ah shoot yeah completely forgot the end is closed off

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464119#Comment_118464119

i'm guessing it's simply an 'it's a new bumper, that's 4 grand if it's an insurance job' quote from a main dealer.

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464119#Comment_118464119

A glancing blow to the drivers side

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463958#Comment_118463958

I would agree until I drove the corner myself, it's very very easy to miss the pole, especially since it's a brand new addition.

It's this marking, liability etc I'm really curious about

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464399#Comment_118464399

must have been going at quite the clip to do 4000 of damage.

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464454#Comment_118464454

Not at all, it's an expensive car and will require a new door hence the price.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463962#Comment_118463962

There's a name for this kind of street design, but the name escapes me. Basically its a reassignment of priority in terms of space, from the car, as can be seen on Google maps, changed to where priority is now for pedestrians, disabled, parents with buggies, cyclists and lastly cars. Basically cars are guests on that street now and should drive accordingly. I'm guessing there will be a very low limit applied to this when its all done

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463958#Comment_118463958

I would agree with this there is definitely a case to be answered here by either the contractor or the council.

In my opinion that pole should not be there unless there is sufficent lighting or the contractor should have cones or barriers around it.

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464557#Comment_118464557

Eventually maybe but due to other roadworks this is now a main route and is very busy.

cml387

If your car hits a stationary object you really have no one to blame but yourself.

magicbastarder

yeah, to be honest i'd be embarrassed to contact the council and tell them 'i want compensation from you because i drove into a stationary 3m tall pole belonging to you'.

the fact that it hadn't been there before is immaterial, and the fact that it wasn't plastered in hi-vis is immaterial. drivers are expected to not drive into things that weren't there before. and it's sitting out in the footpath, should have been easily visible.

the above comes with the caveat that IANAL, but can you imagine what streetscapes would look like if we had to plaster every bollard, etc., in hi-vis in case drivers were able to claim after hitting them? there are least a dozen more bollards and poles visible in the original photo above which don't have hi-vis (or at least nothing that would be immediately obvious coming from the POV of the photographer).

cml387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464557#Comment_118464557

I believe the Dutch call it a "woonerf".

Cuddlesworth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464610#Comment_118464610

He hit a stationary object, in a lit street, in a construction zone, on a footpath, hard enough to do significant damage to his car.

If that's how the locals take that corner(since you report multiple crashes), I can see why they are redesigning it.

mk7r

Just to update, council were informed, in a matter of fact way rather than a I'm suing toys out of pram way and they sent out a claims form so we will see 🤷‍♂️

NUTLEY BOY

The answer to your initial question is "yes".

A council can be held liable for accidents caused by or in connection with roadworks. However, you must establish negligence on their part.

Generally, creation of a hazard on the highway tends to attract a strict liability. On the evidence, it would have to be decided if the council or their contractors created a hazard by virtue of the way the works were executed.

If the hazard was created by an independent contractor that should not alter the position of the council. Generally, a principal is not vicariously liable for the negligence of an independent contractor. However, a strict liability event such as creating a hazard in the road usually escapes that rule on vicarious liability. In any event there are usually indemnities in place between council and contractors. If proceedings were to issue they would be drafted against the council and the contractor as co-defendants.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473724#Comment_118473724

they hit a pole that was erected on the footpath. I think the council is safe.

NUTLEY BOY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473763#Comment_118473763

Fair point.

I am thinking that if the locus was rendered ambiguous by virtue of the way the works were executed a motorist exercising reasonable care could be effectively led astray. In principle, this reminds me of those cases where road markings were wrongly applied and accidents ensued as a consequence.