Council may 'intervene' at Waterford's once iconic Ard Rí site

Azatadine

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40782738.html

Just thought I'd pop this in here. Something needs to happen up there anyway.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058227445/council-may-intervene-at-waterfords-once-iconic-ard-ri-site

land hoarding has to be stopped, owners just sit on their asset, waiting for its value to rise, just tax it!

nomoedoe

Why can’t the council do that with the glass factory site?,its an eyesore for years and nothing ever done about it ,Frisby wont even fence the place off!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118460868#Comment_118460868

they easily could, we re just very adverse to appropriately taxing wealth in the form of assets, especially related to property and land, at both the local and national level

Valhalla90

Developers sitting on land is the problem here. It should be incorporated into the North Quays plans!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462999#Comment_118462999

the land should remain in state ownership, period!

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058227445/council-may-intervene-at-waterfords-once-iconic-ard-ri-site

This article indicates that the Council had unsuccessful discussions over the sale of some of the land, and now we have an article in the media which indicates that they might tax the owner?

The Council could be accused of acting a bit deviously here to get the kind of deal they want, or because they didn't get the deal they want.

The article gives the impression that Walsh has been sitting on the site since 2017, there has been a legal dispute regarding the ownership of this site continued until spring 2019.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466093#Comment_118466093

we do have to prevent land hoarding though, and taxation is known to work reasonably well in doing so, and the state is of course the only way to implement that, so.....

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463090#Comment_118463090

And then watch nothing ever happen with it. You've too much belief in the state to be a force for good. The talent, drive, belief, vision and finance just isn't there.

Please don't reply with "what if's", let's keep things rooted in reality.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466411#Comment_118466411

yes the state has and does implement dreadful policies, that does incredible damage, but its what we got, taxation is a critical need, and we have no other way of implementing such policies, again, taxation of wealth in the form of assets such as land, is well documented to work well. you can see how our primary government parties work, in regards wealth accumulation, they re still stuck in this old thinking of tax wealth as little as possible, and direct it towards labour and consumption, its clearly failing, and theyre failing(falling) with it......

jelutong

Some of the land and part of the hotel is in Co.Kilkenny.

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466351#Comment_118466351

If it's a cut and dried case the Council should just crack on with it, they shouldn't need to be bleating in the media about what they might do. This looks like a pressure tactic to get the type deal they're looking for.

jelutong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466093#Comment_118466093

I believe the Council want to buy a piece of land to build the Guardian of The Deices on. Why not purchase the whole lot?

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470982#Comment_118470982

Good question, it was put up for sale a few months ago.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467690#Comment_118467690

im unsure if such a tax can be implemented at a local level, but it absolutely can be at a national level, and it should be, as its a national problem, but ffg simply wont do such things

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118472709#Comment_118472709

The Council must maintain a vacant sites register in their area with sites that are suitable for housing that have not been put forward for development, and the funds levied go to the Council.

So again I think the Council are skating on ice here by making statements like this regarding sites that have been on the market, and which they've been trying to buy some or part of. Looks like bully boy tactics, and why not just impose the levy if that's the appropriate course of action?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118472958#Comment_118472958

such a levy could also be seen as a bully tactic, and in a way it would be, but thats kinna the whole idea of it, you can see how our political process dances around such issues, we have given land hoarders way too much power in such situations, but hopefully we re moving into an era whereby we re reducing it now, difficult dance id imagine

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473021#Comment_118473021

No its the media comment that's the bully boy tactic.

If its correct that the levy should be applied then they should just go ahead and do it without any fuss.

I have seen Councils try and put a levy on sites that they've refused planning permission for, so there is all sorts of blaggarding going on.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473136#Comment_118473136

theres probably multiple stake holders involved in such processes, but ffg have always been extremely reluctant to implement such policies, its a fundamental part of their ideologies, it is a tricky one though, we need land owners and investors involved in order to provide us with our needs, but we just need to remove some of the power they have, not an easy task, interesting to hear councils has tried to implement such levies before though, god only knows what goes on in the background

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473188#Comment_118473188

Let me be clear - it is currently open to the Council to do this. Nothing impeding them in terms of Government policy.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473218#Comment_118473218

yes i understand what you re saying, but we have no clue if there are bigger political forces at play here, theyre could very well be, and it also wouldnt surprise me if there was, land hoarding is common, and is politically encouraged.....

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473246#Comment_118473246

I see what you're getting at but I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Again worth recapping on the story here. While the article gave the impression that the owner has been sitting on this for years without doing anything, it appears he bought it in 2017 and it was subject to a legal dispute for until 2019.

If you were to sit down any try to formalise plans to develop a complex site like that, and more importantly to raise the funds to get going with it, you'd easily be looking at a couple of years before you got anywhere with it. The Council would know that themselves as a result of their experience with the North Quays.

The guy has put the site on the market in 2021, quite soon after the Council paused the North Quays project for a couple more years at least.The Council tried to buy some or all of it but it didn't work out for whatever reason.

The more I think of it Michael Walsh would want to be pretty careful here from an ethics perspective.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463090#Comment_118463090

The state is by far the worst of all land hoarders. There are sites in Dublin city bought in the 1940s still waiting for development. Private developers have a profit motive so they tend to hoard less

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483951#Comment_118483951

true, the state isnt fully utilizing its land resources, but land hoarding and dereliction has been increasing in the private domain, as most policies benefit such situations and outcomes, sometimes its best to do so, in order to maximize returns, without virtually making any investment, i.e. relatively easy money, by sitting and waiting for the assets to rise in value, by virtually doing nothing. this idea that the private sector is always far more 'efficient' than the state is actually another economic myth, both can be sh1t! clear examples of this in waterford in the private domain would be previous waterford crystal land/property and of course ard ri land/property....

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483951#Comment_118483951

fcuking disgraceful stuff!!

Empty Council Houses.jpg

spankmemunkey

That Hotel will never be sorted, The land was surveyed by a british company and they stayed in a local hotel during their stay for the work, a guy i know who looked after them during their stay, said they told him the drainage was never right on the land and when the ground was dug the toxic waste was so far down into the rock that it eould never be safe or cost wayyyyyy too much to remedy, one of the many required reports before any other progress cud be made, these are some of the delays people dont realise are on going, not to mention an agreed sale price to someone else aparrantly sale was agreed with one party onlyto be cancelled and sold to someone else, then legal disputes followed.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118493088#Comment_118493088

This is who you want to solve the problem....

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

Could they even knock the current building that's there in the meantime? At least then you wouldn't have a massive derelict structure staring you in the face everytime you looked across the river, and I would imagine they will have to knock it for a new development anyway.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533968#Comment_118533968

more state involvement is the only way to right our property markets, but that requires a government that actually wants to do it, our current government is strongly against getting too involved, as this is a fundamental element of their underlying ideologies, this approach has clearly catastrophically failed, its time for us to move on from these ideologies, and basically grow up....

Squidvicious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534106#Comment_118534106

You have a lot of faith in the state to get things right with their involvement. There's at least as much chance that they will make things worse. If they do intervene more, I hope that they keep it simple and stick to basic things like just building houses or, possibly better, put in the infrastructure needed for housing.

One big issue currently is the cost of building houses. Partly, this is down to general rises in the cost of materials and labour. However, another big issue is the ongoing increase in building standards. The cost of building is going up all the time so much so that it's no longer economic to build apartments in most of the country.

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534106#Comment_118534106

State involvement has managed to increase rental prices (starting with the bedsit ban of a few years back) as a lot of small timers quite reasonably see that the government tries to displace anger at vulture funds by going after them. This government (inc CoCos) and previous governments have quite a record of allowing property they own to just rot, whether vacant council houses, office premises or even housing once set to staff in the Phoenix Park and others. The legal action over ownership ended not too long ago. State efforts for now should be limited to support for Waterford CoCo efforts.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534179#Comment_118534179

theres no other way of doing this, the state has been stepping back from providing this critical need for decades now, and this has now completely failed, we re only now slowly starting to accept this, some will never accept it. this will not be an easy fix nor quick, i suspect we ll still be dealing with housing problems heading into the next decade, but hopefully we ll be well on the way to solving them. yes, more state involvement will be problematic, and of course there will be failures, but there simply isnt any other way of doing this, the market alone will never resolve this, it has become too problematic, and the fact its main elements, primarily the fire sectors, are hard wired for wealth extraction, at all costs, which has just resulted in this mess, along side state failures of course, but when you have continuous governments simply trying to support such behaviors, no wonder, we are where we are!

the state is gonna need major private sector involvement to get the job done though, as it doesnt have the abilities to do it alone, but strict conditions are gonna have to be set from the very beginning, in particular, no excess profits, this wont be an easy one, we ve allowed these major private sector industries a free reign for too long now, and the whole thing is a complete mess. we need to urgently increase state ownership of property, from public housing to council housing, and beyond....

the only way i can see of dealing with the materials issue, is to accumulate the purchases of materials, again the state would need to be involved in this process, at the moment, most entities are negotiating for materials on an individual bases, but if there was an accumulation of negotiations, this might reduce the overall costs, might, but again, this also wont be easy....

it does seem like theres been a fairly dramatic increase in regs, particularly in relation to building apartments, this to will need to be investigated, and if theres no adjustments made, or not enough for builders to be able to build, and make money from, again, the state is gonna have to step in, and possibly subsidize these works....

none of this is gonna be quick or easy, this is one hell of a challenge, but it now has to be done, or we ll probably end up fcuked, our property problems must be costing investment and jobs from being created....

Squidvicious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534302#Comment_118534302

Fair play to you for a comprehensive and thoughtful response. I can completely see why you think state intervention is needed and I agree to some degree. However, I would repeat that they need to keep it as simple as possible in my opinion. First, build houses. Second, try to make it as easy as possible for the private sector to build. Some measures could be counter productive e.g. state purchase of materials. That could both push up prices of materials and also make it harder for private sector to acquire these materials. As you say, nothing about this will be easy.

JohnC.

Seamus Walsh was apparently on WLR. Says matters are still before the courts, so he can’t do anything yet. But the plans are for a 132 room 3 star apartment hotel, 5 acre eco park, 455 residential units (houses and apartments) and a neighbourhood centre incorporating shops, a creche, and a medical centre.

https://www.wlrfm.com/news/waterford-castle-owner-announces-350-million-investment-in-the-south-east-283128

Theres a picture of a plan on another article

https://www.wlrfm.com/news/new-ferrybank-housing-development-planned-by-waterford-castles-seamus-walsh-283187

Asdfgh2020

Thought this site was put up for sale again….?

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

Gut feeling says this is not the man I would want to develop the most iconic site in Waterford.

I don't think I trust much of what he's saying.

friendlyfun

So many spots laying idle around the city Maryland, Ard Rí, and Crystal Site. They are all in prime locations too. I take they aren't paying any vacant property taxes giving how little of it gets collected nationally.

Valhalla90

I will believe it when I see it tbh. This guy sits on land and will also now do the same in New Ross. Bilberry site also just a waste land waiting to be developed I can see why the council don’t entertain him anymore. I know he gave reasons as to the delay but it’s going on years now surely the court process is nearly exhausted!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020817#Comment_120020817

ah shur land hoarding is facilitated and encouraged, this is something that our next government needs to address!

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

I can't remember if it was Waterford council or somewhere else who were asked why they've collected so little vacant property tax and their answer was literally "because it's too hard".

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021235#Comment_120021235

its a nationwide problem, its just another element our primary political parties are strongly reluctant to change, and it also shows their strong connections towards the asset owning classes and entities, they ll never change, as thats just another part of the game....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021257#Comment_120021257

It's probably because they are sitting on half of it!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028431#Comment_120028431

yup, its a bit of a train wreck, we ve designed the whole process for land hoarding, all based on the value of the assets, and doing whatever it takes in maintaining those values

Gael23

The problem is somebody many years ago was successful in obtaining a preservation order for the facade

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032204#Comment_120032204

I dont think thats true.