House plans

Bally3

Hi, we live in a housing estate and I am looking to get a copy of the house plans. Where can I get these from please?

We are hoping to build on and am assuming we need copy of original plans to show builder?

Thanks in advance.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225864/house-plans

nah, no need to show the builder original plans... he can walk the house its already built.

if you are building on, then you'll need drawings and a specification of hat you ant to construct in order for builders to be able to give you their quotations

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225864/house-plans

Bally3.

Do not under any circumstances allow a builder design your proposed Extension.

Retain a Registered/ Chartered Building Surveyor or a Chartered Building Engineer to give advice and complete the Construction Drawings. Always demand to visit one of their previous extensions.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418078#Comment_118418078

You cannot demand to visit one of their previous extensions, especially now during covid.

as a Registered Building Surveyor/Chartered Building Engineer, this is not something I can grant very easily.

most will have photos of previous works.

DOCARCH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418078#Comment_118418078

Or even architect/architectural technician. 🙂

Pawwed Rig

On our last extension the builder did everything. He brought in his own engineer to certify the steel beams. It was a fairly basic extension the whole width of the house giving us a large square kitchen/dining room.

If we could get the exact same for the current house we would do that.

maestroamado

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/planning_permission/planning_perm_altering_a_house.html

Have a look at this... go online and have a look at different ideas... chat and ask friends advise... good builders have loads of ideas but there are also loads of dodgy ones...

Getting an architect is fine but a waste of money if not needed.... I find often when architects design they dont often take the needs of the customer on board...

good luck..

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419688#Comment_118419688

Never a good idea to use the builder's engineer.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419688#Comment_118419688

I was not aware an engineer was needed for extension... it may have being for loan purpose... it is often the case that competent people will be professional and know each other and works well for all...

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419780#Comment_118419780

Bit of a generalisation there. I have the beam certificate here with the engineers name and address on it. The solicitors accepted this when we were selling the house. Not sure why you think it is an issue.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419780#Comment_118419780

I'd disagree to an extent. My previous company we were often engaged by the builder rather than the homeowner to specify, inspect and certify structural steel items for such works. We always treated it the same as if we were engaged by the homeowner, and enforced any corrective action required by the builder.

Obviously caution is required, but I suppose there's a difference between "the builder's engineer" which might imply self-certification, and "an engineer engaged by the builder" who is independent, insured etc.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419815#Comment_118419815

of course its a generalisation, theres nothing specific in the query here thats being discussed.

the reason its not a good idea to use a builders engineer is because you should always have someone working with your interests in mind. He who pays the piper and all that.

if something goes wrong (which can, generally, happen) then the engineer may be more prone to come up with a resolution which suits the "paying, repeat customer" builder and not the home owners

Pawwed Rig

In this case the builders I terest and mine are the same No? ie that the beam holds the house up. Given the current high cost of getting work done I wouldn't blame anyone for looking for cheaper options and eliminating architects etc where they can get away with it. A modest extension can now incur a crippling debt. I was recently quoted €15k to get a block shed built in the back garden. Prices are gone crazy and people's salaries (in general) haven't risen at nearly the same speed.

So yeah the best way to get work done is to hire a host of professionals that cover every single aspect of what is being done and get double and triple checks where required. In reality people cannot afford to do this.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225864/house-plans

Bally3. The consultant should be retained by you to design and certify the construction works, to be completed by the builder also retain by you.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419620#Comment_118419620

Gumbo

Good point.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419673#Comment_118419673

DOCARCH

Yes I agree with retaining an Architect Technologist.

Whom ever you retain, get a copy of their Professional Indemnity Insurances.

Do not allow a builder to include a P. C. Sum for anything in his Estimate.

Every Item can and should be costed fully, so that the builders Estimate and Final Account are similar.

Whatever Professional you retain get them to work for a fixed fee for professional services.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419993#Comment_118419993

How will the Builder price the kitchen?

Flooring?

paint colours/finish?

I havent seen a quote in years that didnt have a realistic PC Sum in it.

The client may not know what flooring they wat at commencement Stage. The builder cannot price for laminate flooring now and then be hit with parquet style at the end of the build.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118423433#Comment_118423433

Gumbo.

The clients must decide on their Fitted Kitchen at some stage. Go to a Kitchen Company, pick out a Kitchen, get the cost and your building professional, can get the builder to include for this amount for the kitchen company to ‘supply and fit’ as a P C Sum. If the clients change their minds and get a different Kitchen the difference in cost can be adjusted in the final account.

The same applies to Laminate flooring. The clients pick out a Laminate. Clients professional can include the cost of supplying the laminate as a P C Sum. The builder must include in his estimate for supplying the underlay and fitting the laminate and NOT as part of a P C Sum. If you purchase a different laminate then an adjustment can be made with the purchasing invoice of the laminate.

Painting & Decorating.

Clients pick out the brand of paint they wish to use. Builder gets a price from a painting contractor to paint the house. If the clients decide on a different paint, then the difference in cost of the paint invoice only is adjusted in the final account. Builder gets nothing extra for Painter to apply the paint.

Your building profession should specify all of this in the Specification of Works, which is a Contract Document together with the Drawings and Builders Estimate/ Quotation.

Builders are notorious for keeping P C. Sums low, in order to secure a Contract. This is why you must retain a building professional to protect your interest and to ensure that the builders estimate, before commencement is similar to the final account, on completion.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424088#Comment_118424088

That’s exactly why I posted my comment.

you said to never allow PC sums. PC sums would be near standard on all quotes I see.

yet your reply goes into detail on why a PV sim should be included. You have me confused now!

builder will get attendance on site costs for even the sub contractors prices so to say the builder gets nothing out of the painters quote is incorrect.

painters will also not quote individual jobs for contractors. It’s a square meter cost added by our QS to cover prep, attendance and engagement of the painter at current trade rates.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424151#Comment_118424151

I never allow P C Sums in domestic building Contracts

Everything in a house must be picked out and decided on at some stage. It is best if the clients do this before obtaining quotes from builders.

Building Contractors are entitled to charge Overheads and Profit on all Sub-Contractors. The minimum is 5% Overheads and 5% profit.

You mentioned you are confused. Building Contracts are very complicated and confusing. This is why Clients should retain a Building Professional, who have the Education, Training, Knowledge, Expertise and Experience, to ensure that their Building project is completed to:- Costs and Standards within the Contract Time.

BryanF

What type of projects are you working on? Where you don’t include pc sums?

Also Can we have a little less of the condescension please, there are several regular posters here that are seasoned professional archs/AT’s/engineers

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424281#Comment_118424281

There's no issue with PC Sums, but they should just be agreed and approved in advance and form part of the contract sum. The building professional engaged should ensure the PC Sums are reasonable.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419815#Comment_118419815

sydthebeat give my reasons above.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419993#Comment_118419993

You're a bit out of touch regarding PC sums.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425260#Comment_118425260

Irrelevant. It wasn't an issue.

Again it is one of cost. Building at this stage is uneconomical with costs running away with themselves. As I said above Yes it would be great to have all manner of professionals to oversee a project but each additional person is additional costs that people cannot afford. A moderate sized extension is now a couple of years salary for someone on the average wage. It is gone nuts and the working people in this country are the ones forced to pay out as usual.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425315#Comment_118425315

Not irrelevant at all but it is generally accepted that you should engage the services of your own engineer in such a situation.

You do realise that you still ended up paying for the engineer (and possibly a little bit added to his bill for beer money for the builder) so why you wouldnt elect to have your own engineer carry out inspections and issue certs is beyond me.

mickdw

I think what Mr Eastwood is trying to say is that it's not a good idea to allow a builder quote random amounts for PC sums.

A builder tendering for a domestic extension with no professional engaged by householder might randomly include 1500 for tiles and 5k for kitchen knowing that the figures won't touch the sides yet makes his quote look reasonable.

At outset, this is explained to client as just a way of allowing for them to pick what they want.

When the client finds that they are now thousands short of having a finished kitchen, the builder just shruggs. Not his problem.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430115#Comment_118430115

Convenience. Tried to get 3 engineers. 2 didn't respond and the 3rd didn't show up. Not unusual.

mickdw

Ive seen time and again that an Engineer who works continually with a given Builder will be less likely to pull the builder on detail versus an independently sourced Engineer.

It's just a silly thing to do to let builder source Engineer. Builder will seek out and find an Engineer he can 'work' with.

If he does 2 jobs - one where the engineer wanted everything 100 percent, the other where the Engineer just signed the cert at the end..... Which Engineer do you think will be called if the Builder needs someone to certify again?

Pawwed Rig

Christ. For the third time the beam needed a cert. I got the cert. Solicitor was happy, purchaser was happy. Case closed

Nothing silly about it when Engineers you try to source don't bother their holes responding/turning up. What choice do people have?

Again for the third time it would be great to have all manner of professionals oversee your build but the reality is that builds are way overpriced as is. To have another 3 or 4 professionals on hand will add significantly to the cost.

It is worrying that there is an assumption here that builders and engineers cannot be trusted yet no one seems overly concerned with the fact.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431408#Comment_118431408

Chill out mate. Comments are generalizing on the point of a builder employing the engineer.

in your specific situation you obviously had no alternative and that's fine.