Help! Can't move to new job because boss won't sign off pmds.

leanbh

This is for my brother. He's public sector . He has had some difficulties in work that were resolved in his favour in court.

He went back to his job in 2020 but his boss won't sign off his 2020 pmds. (He's asked in writing both hr and his boss)

He's got a new Job offer in another department but he can't move without giving pmds to the new department. What can he do to force the situation?

He doesn't want to lose this new job but they've given him a deadline of January 15th.

Flinty997

Was the union involved? What's their advice.

leanbh

He's not in the union

leanbh

He's desperate to get this sorted. He doesn't want to go nuclear (ie legal) as he's afraid work will make it really tough for him. Any ideas.

leanbh

Just to add no issues were raised about his work in 2020. Just ignoring every request from him to sign off the 2020 pmds. I'm not public service myself. Is this normal?

Mrs OBumble

Join the union.

leanbh

Yes. He's made an application before Christmas. Regarding his particular issue he is only getting automated response from his rep (which is understandable as its Christmas). Union rep won't be back till 7th January. That's why he's worried. He's not even sure if union will take on the issue as he's just joined.

Without having any info its very hard to advise

What issue is with the pmds do you know? Was it all agreed and delivered as agreed?

What do hr or his managers manager say?

leanbh

No problems were raised at all with his pmds in 2020 throughout the year. End of year review was completed and signed by him and submitted to manager in Feb 2021. Then silence...?

He notified hr last month but that was ignored also.

leanbh

Also to add he did ask his manager if there was any specific problem with the pmds. No response. He thinks he's being punished for suing his dept.- that they won't let him leave. That sounds nuts to me?

If he has not already done so, he needs to go straight over his supervisor's head, to his "second" supervisor and if they don't respond, to their supervisor and so on.

i.e., if he reports to a HEO, he goes to the AP. If he reports to the AP, he goes to the PO - and so on up the line.

Technically, his MANAGER would be regarded as having failed their own PMDS if they have not followed up and signed off on their reports PMDS in a timely manner.

Don't delay on this.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384748#Comment_118384748

It not impossible. Its a good example of how PMDS can be miss-used

I don't like unions but this is why they exist.

L

Also question - was his PMDS 2021 done?

There should have been goal setting and mid-term review and end of year reviews for 2021 are now due.

Tork

How many actual conversations with humans has he had about this? Emails are easy to ignore.

Yesah hes been far too passive.

Mails are a good record but he should be on the phone to the manager above and hr setting out urgency here.

leanbh

Thanks for comments. He has set out that it's urgent (he hasn't mentioned new job explicitly to current work as he doesn't want them to scupper it-he has excellent references from former managers)

He rang hr and manager 4 times before Christmas but they just kept saying we will get back.

Re: 2021 pmds that's been stalled.

Is it true his manager fails his own pmds if he doesn't pass my brother's?

Where is that rule set out in public service? (Maybe he could say it to them)

Is there any way he can get a copy of his managers 2020 pmds?

leanbh

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384738#Comment_118384738

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385567#Comment_118385567

Send another copy of letter by registered post to HR immediately, this is done through AnPost office (€6.00 )and HR will have to sign for for its delivery. One would want to have a very thick skin to ignore a registered letter. Important KEEP the RECEIPT. End

leanbh

That's a very good idea re: registered post. This new job are giving a deadline of 15th January to get pmds so that should give him time.

Is there anything he should say in registered post letter that he hasn't said already?

(He doesn't want to give them the heads up on the new job)

He should tell them he is waiting on a new job, imo

Ive never known a HR dept in the piblic sector would want the reputation of scuppering that for someone

I have to be honest I would advise frankness and directness here with all cards on the table and thats on the phone with the highest HR team member available followed up in writing cc'ing manager and their manager

Registered post isnt any different to an email which you have a timestamped record of in any case

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385567#Comment_118385567

Every manager's first PMDS goal is completing the PMDS process for their reports. Your brother can see his manager's goals on the PMDS system. The next cycle of PMDS can't start until the previous stage has been signed off, and it's very common for managers to get reminder mails in December saying to get their and their staffs' PMDS done - a manager's manager can see who hasn't completed their PMDS tasks, and having staff who don't have a signed-off PMDS shows as incomplete for the manager.

Given the urgency, he should be phoning his manager and talking directly to him - and then immediately after the call, mailing him with the contents of the call, e.g., "Thank you for taking my call earlier today to discuss PMDS. I have noted you agreed to do X and Y by Z date. As mentioned, this is urgent, so I would appreciate that deadline being met..." No harm cc'ing the manager's manager.

No department will want to "keep" someone to punish them, and few managers would want to keep someone they don't regard as performing. I've never worked in HR but as this is civil service to civil service, are you sure HR don't already know he's moving? There has to be a reason for refusing to sign off on a PMDS - especially if, as you say, the work has been done - and this would have been communicated to your brother. It's possible you're not getting the full story.

leanbh

Nothing was communicated to my brother re: any problems with his work performance in 2020.

Regarding the decision about telling hr about the new job; he's not going to do that.

I don't want to go into too much detail but his last case included details where this local hr stopped a transfer.

He doesn't want this to happen again.

I really appreciate people explaining the mechanics of how pmds works. It's very helpful

Pawwed Rig

This thread is like a window into a weird alternate universe.

Registered letters to HR, managers not responding to employees, something called PMDS which seems to be absolutely critical to the continued existence of human kind, colleagues unwilling to speak to each other.

Fascinating

I wouldn't see much point in sending a registered letter to HR at this stage.

An email with a delivery receipt or a read receipt would be as useful. Departments were open today and will be open tomorrow and Friday, so he should be calling them every day.

One way or the other, his HR department are going to know about the move as if this is a transfer or mobility move, he will have to be released to his new Department.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118387797#Comment_118387797

The Public Service has to be experienced to be believed. You can be physically assaulted by your manager and it will be swept under the carpet. I retired early on grounds of work-related stress which had dangerous cardiac consequences, and they were only too glad to get rid of me as I was a thorn in HR’s side.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118387975#Comment_118387975

I heard the opposite in that they take bullying complaints very seriously and HR strongly sides with the victim from the time a report is logged.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118387990#Comment_118387990

Not in my organisation, don’t want to be too specific about it but it wasn’t the Civil Service.

leanbh

Apologies if I didn't make it clear but this isn't a transfer/mobility move. He applied for a post that was publicly advertised on PAS.

He got offered a job from that public panel end November. He has just submitted his references. They are happy with that.

Now they want his pmds.

Hence the problem.

leanbh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385632#Comment_118385632

It would get delivered to the post room and signed by a service officer. There should be a book they use which is signed by the addressee to prove its been delivered. Check if this is how they do it before sending

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118388895#Comment_118388895

Don't bother. There's absolutely no benefit in sending a registered letter over sending an email with a delivery/read receipt, except to show you've a few quid spare :-)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118388392#Comment_118388392

So it's a promotion from an open and/or interdepartmental panel, then. So HR will know, as they'll have to have cleared his release - new department won't take him without clearing it with current department's HR and will check references.

If its an open panel then id have thought his pmds irrelevant

Perhaps interdepartmental tbf

Nonetheless phone calls followed up with mails and quick escalation is still the avenue here

TaurenDruid

Yeah, probably not needed for open even if you're an existing public servant (though I don't know for definite). It definitely is needed for interdepartmental.

Tork

It's time for him to be honest about why he wants PMDS signed off so urgently. Seeing as he ended up having to resolve his problems in a court, they'll be glad to be rid of him.

leanbh

Just to update: the new department have agreed to wait until Feb 25th for my brother to get this pmds for them.

He sent another email to his manager and their manager.

No word yet!

Still he's hopeful now of getting this new job.

Tork

I hope he's doing more than just emailing. Is he ringing them and then following up with an email?

leanbh

He has only emailed them but his manager's manager did get back to him saying they'll look into it.

So that's something.

He's going to follow up tomorrow if he still has nothing.

Just wondering how one appeals a non-review?? (Worst case scenario)

TaurenDruid

They'll "look into it"?! The manager clearly has a problem with your brother. The manager's manager needs to sort this. Or HR.

As for an appeal - one gets on to one's union, pointing out the problem and the urgency.

One also gets on to the head of HR, by email, with read receipt, pointing out the problem and the urgency, and seeking signoff on one's PMDS by the manager or the manager's superior by X date, and advises that if this isn't accommodated then a formal complaint will be made, and one cc's the manager's manager on that email.

Tork

I used to be in the CS years ago and just about remember PMDS. I'm out of the loop now but back in the day, some departments were more diligent about PMDS than other ones. I heard stories of some places which didn't even submit the forms, though that might have been tightened up on in the years since. So in short, there may not be any consequences for your brother's manager if he doesn't sign that form off on time. If your brother wants to leave his current job, he should be banging down the doors of higher up management and applying downward pressure. It's obvious that the manager is going to sit on this for as long as possible and HR might not be his biggest fans either. I fail to see how keeping his reason for this urgency secret will benefit him either.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448583#Comment_118448583

It won't benefit him at all, and at this stage HR either know (because it's interdepartmental) or have guessed (because why else would someone be pushing for this so hard, and really, it's not hard to work out!) PMDS is all online these days on one central system so it's very clear to line managers and to HR who has completed their PMDS and gotten it signed off, and who hasn't, if anyone is paying attention. You can't complete your own PMDS as a manager without having your reports complete theirs. So the failure to complete the PMDS for the OP's "brother" means the manager can't complete their PMDS and should mean the manager's manager can't complete theirs?

it's extremely unclear to me why the person in question is being so passive and avoidant at this stage

will he still be sending emails the day before he's due to start the new job?

leanbh

Just to say thanks! This got sorted for my brother. He's managed to move to new department already so thanks to all for your advice.

TaurenDruid

Ah, c'mon, you gotta give us resolution! :-) Did he have it out with the manager? Get any reason for the delay? The manager's manager signed off on the PMDS?

leanbh

Manager's manager sent email to him saying pmds signed off and there it was.

He was able to move a few days later. He heard Nothing else from his own manager. He loves the new department.

Thanks once again.

TaurenDruid

All's well that ends well :-)