Café / Restaurant pubs, why are there none here?

it takes 2 2 tango

In the Netherlands and Belgium and most other parts of Europe they have café-style establishments where you can get food and a drink or tapas.

Here the pubs are primarily pubs and very few serve food.

Mainland style café bars would be welcome here.

Pawwed Rig

Most pubs serve food No?

The reason we don't have continental style restaurants and cafes is the same reason we don't have pagodas and saunas. It is a different culture who traditionally demanded different things.

it takes 2 2 tango

Even in the rest of Europe you see cafe style bars where you can buy tapas or snacks and graze on snacks when drinking.

They look nicer abroad too. Most are located on beautiful terraces on pedestrianised areas. Very few such places exist here.

igCorcaigh

Don't like crisps or peanuts, eh?

Although, pubs serving decent food have increased vastly over the recent years. But there should be more, I agree. Depends on the economics of supply and demand I guess. We're still a pinting nation.

Viscount Aggro

Because most people go to pubs to be get skulled.

Food is something you get on the way home.

it takes 2 2 tango

Alcohol licences are more liberally granted in most of the rest of Europe.

You could have a small local “sit down chipper” where you can buy a can of beer with your chips or order a 6 pack with your take away kebabs.

Whilst some of Nordic Europe has more egregious licensing laws than us, we’re closer to Saudi Arabia in some regards than our other European neighbours.

igCorcaigh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383442#Comment_118383442

There was an attempt to encourage cafe style pubs some years back, but the vintners were having none of it. Our national drug dealers have a lot of power.

Spanish Eyes

Vintners and pub owners would not like it, so it doesn't happen. Michael McDowell tried to introduce cafe bar culture but it was knocked back big time.

By whom? Yep the vintners - suitably aided by their friends in FF.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/under-their-influence-ff-gang-killed-mcdowells-cafe-bar-idea-25958987.html

landofthetree

The publicans are a powerful lobby group and the government make it extremely difficult for non pubs to serve alcohol

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383457#Comment_118383457

In any other setting it would be considered a conflict of interest for lobby groups that would be the beneficiary of stifling legislation to have the power to do so.

silliussoddius

Culture, boss.

igCorcaigh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383479#Comment_118383479

Same with housing. Many politicians are landlords, and have an interest in not solving the housing crisis. It's a failure of our media to question and expose this abuse of power.

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383490#Comment_118383490

How are travellers to blame if that’s what you’re trying to get across?

am I the only one who’s absolutely fed up of seeing threads banging on about what we do/don’t have vs what are comparably massive countries in Europe?

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383502#Comment_118383502

The Netherlands and Belgium are most definitely not massive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383509#Comment_118383509

is reading difficult for you? I said comparably. As in compared to Ireland. Which is tiny.

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383519#Comment_118383519

Both of those places are only roughly half the size of Ireland

Nevertheless I can’t disagree it would be nice to have a pub that didn’t stink of alcohol and old people

at the moment if you want a coffee a cafe is your best bet.

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383502#Comment_118383502

The topic has little to do with comparisons with other "massive" countries in Europe. It has to do with the power that a particular lobby group has to prevent alcohol being sold anywhere other than in a pub or restaurant.

There are small countries in Europe too that enjoy a cafe culture. But we as a nation are not to be trusted to have a drink other than in a pub/restaurant, ever. Except at home which is also being tinkered with by virtue of MUP, due in a few days time.

It took a pandemic to wake Dublin City Council up to the fact that outdoor dining and socialising was a massive benefit to all FGS.

igCorcaigh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383533#Comment_118383533

What? Do you live in a rural village? Old people??

it takes 2 2 tango

After all the admonishment of home drinking and “bold” adults buying a few cans to drink at home why hasn’t the pub culture received similar criticism?

Look at the crowds of people (pre covid) getting sick outside pubs or around the town, assaults after closing …..

igCorcaigh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383563#Comment_118383563

We need a safer drug that lets people relax and escape the dreary world for a bit. It could even be a plant.

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383563#Comment_118383563

Did you not know that the Pub is the safest place to drink, and the vintner lobby have succeeded in that "truth" by rubbing their hands together regarding MUP.

But shure many are in a Covid Coma of restrictions anyway, and so the myth continues.....

Catholic Church must be raging that its power to control has been handed to the pub owners lock stock and barrel. Covid closures and restrictions are handsomely compensated for by us the taxpayer, and so it goes, on and on.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383501#Comment_118383501

Talking about Irish pub culture, chief

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383553#Comment_118383553

Unless you go in the evening it’s generally older people and that, yes. During the week anyway.

I just find pubs where I am (not a rural village) depressing to be in. They smell pretty much all the same, everything is way overpriced & if I want a coffee I’d just rather go to a cafe.

I’d love to see bars here go similar routes to Italy or the likes where ordering a coffee is just normal, you can drink, if you fancy, but a good cup of coffee in a nice place other than the usual cafes would be nice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383527#Comment_118383527

Oops, can I borrow a napkin to wipe the egg of my face?

Sorry my brain is absolutely melted and I retract what I said, apologies!

L1011

A licence is worth about 60k and the annual costs of keeping a licence are considerable. This makes smaller bars unviable.

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383737#Comment_118383737

You too bro. Sorry for calling you a clown . Peace and love and all that. Stay safe and happy 2022 😊

igCorcaigh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383765#Comment_118383765

That is insane. What is the justification? Seems like a mafia state to me.

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383872#Comment_118383872

Same. It seems like it’s a perverse form of gerrymandering whereby legislation forces the small man out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383888#Comment_118383888

If I were to guess pub owners don’t wanna change.

they don’t want to have any competition either.

so they decided that the best way to do that is piss on the cornflakes of anyone trying to do something different. I’d suspect an Italian style café/bar/restaurant type thing would do really well over here (quality and location depending obviously) but it could equally fall completely flat on its face. It’s no small decision to take on hapes of debt if **** goes south!

That kinda mafia thing of making someone too afraid to step onto your turf is definitely at play here. i suspect the licence costs are the equivalent idea of paying “protection” to mobsters.

whys the fee so high? Cos fcuk you that’s why.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383872#Comment_118383872

The issuing of new pub licences was stopped 'temporarily' in 1902 and has never re-started; so any new pub (or off-licence that sells more than just wine) needs to buy an existing licence from someone else. The value was closer to 100k in boom time.

Existing pub owners would raise hell if this was to change as suddenly their licence ceases to be a saleable asset with a guaranteed high price.

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384009#Comment_118384009

”or off licence that sells more than just wine “

A Lidl, Aldi, Tesco and SuperValu all opened up nearby my house recently, all of which sell beer and spirits.

Are you sure the licencing rules you mentioned apply to off licences too?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384054#Comment_118384054

Yes. Every single one of those will have bought a licence from a closed down pub and handed it in to the court to get their off-licence.

The value of the licence provides a perverse incentive for small rural pubs to close down and cash in.

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384070#Comment_118384070

Christ. So if I open up a new supermarket or corner shop I can only sell wine until someone somewhere else sells me their licence?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384111#Comment_118384111

Yes.

This is why you see quite a lot of convenience stores (particularly petrol stations) that sell wine but not beer/spirits - not enough sales to justify spending the tens of thousands it'll cost to get a full licence.

newirishman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384111#Comment_118384111

This is how it works:

https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/excise-and-licences/excise-licensing/retailers-licence/index.aspx

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384070#Comment_118384070

The general narrative is that publicans hold strong clout and don’t want new licences issued as their licence will “lose value”.

If that is the case and rural pub licences are being sold off to become off licenses, then the number of publicans will eventually dwindle to such a number that they won’t hold that clout.

Am I being too hopeful? Or will we eventually reach a point decades down the line where current off licence holders will then hold the monopoly?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384168#Comment_118384168

You won't get a Beer or Spirits off-licence without surrender of an existing licence (pub or that type of off-licence), though. That procedure is for getting a wine licence.

http://comptonsolicitors.ie/how-to-get-an-off-licence-for-your-shop-or-supermarket

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383502#Comment_118383502

It's something I constantly see on twitter/online forums. People picking and choosing things they like from other countries and saying it should be done here.

No country is perfect.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384185#Comment_118384185

The current situation is 120 years old soon. It's not going to happen any time soon.

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384203#Comment_118384203

But the number of pubs only seem to be going down and off licences up.

If that current trend continues then you’ll eventually see more off licences than pubs.

Unless of course the ridiculous decision not to issue licenses redacted.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384192#Comment_118384192

No harm in exploring why it's not done and clearly in this case it is in one group's interest that any alternative to a typical pub/restaurant/hotel/off licence be stifled before birth. Self-interest all too often the reason why we can't have nice things.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384219#Comment_118384219

There's ~2k off-licences and ~6k pubs on the licence register in December. Experience suggests only about 75% of premises are on the register at this time of year, its a live renewal list not a full register annoyingly.

So even if there's ~50 conversions a year it'll take a long time to hit equilibrium

it takes 2 2 tango

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384256#Comment_118384256

Ah right I wasn’t aware of the numbers.

Surely this all falls afoul of some kind of anti competition law either at a national level or European one?

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383457#Comment_118383457

You can even get a beer in McDonalds in Germany.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118383940#Comment_118383940

Also annoys me the way solicitors who specialise in pub licensing law can make millions. Think of that Constance one who bought the Lissadel estate in Sligo. Just like with planning permission,you shouldn’t be able to make a small fortune on something which is the state’s gift.

New Home

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118384156#Comment_118384156

How do you spell "Cartel", again? (a similar thing goes on with the pricing of medicines, I'd say).

ablelocks

maybe it's specific to my rural locality or maybe it's a sign of things to come - there were 2 pubs in the area, one closed about 10 years ago and the other, which had been closed for a number of years, re-opened shortly after that but is mainly a restaurant, with a small bar area and snug. And they serve decent coffee

licence was sold off on the other one and the building renovated - it's now a cafe and bakery. great to see that it's being used and it will hopefully survive.

it will be interesting to see the impact of MUP on the off-licence and licenced trade over the next few years

Stovepipe

They managed to break the cartel of taxi plates but that simply changed form, so that people who own a taxi plate can have multiple drivers running a taxi 24/7. No valid reason why you couldnt have small bars all around Ireland, selling beer and wine. Except, protectionism,which is supposed to be illegal.

it takes 2 2 tango

I remember when I lived near Maastricht there was a little family run brewery run by a young couple in their 30’s. I used to go frequently on the Friday after college with friends.

You could pop in and buy a crate of their brew or sit in and have a pint on site or have a plate of chips and a burger.

So would such an operation be illegal here?