Age Discrimination?

billgibney

I was involved in disciplinary process in work ( civil service), as a result of this myself and a colleague both lost an increment, about 20 euro a week.

He is 10 years younger than me and I'm die to retire in 2 years.

As a result of the loss of money my pension will be affected as it's based on my best 3 years earnings which will be my last 3.

So I will be at a loss for the rest of my life while my colleague will suffer a loss for one year only.

The act says "treatment of one person in a less favourable way than another person in a comparable situation"

It's not a huge amount but the fact that it's for the rest of my life seems unfair.

Would I have any grounds to go to the WRC?

Thanks

Is it not your best three years in the last 10/12 years?

L1011

Giving your colleague a more severe reprimand than you because he's younger would be discriminatory against him on grounds of age.

gmisk

They treated you exactly the same way as your younger colleague....so no.

Maybe learn a lesson, look at your own work and try to understand why they didn't give you the increment, in my experience not giving an increment is unusual.

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118364838#Comment_118364838

Best consecutive 3 years, which are my last 3 due to pay rises

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118364877#Comment_118364877

It wasn't that didn't give me an increment, It was that they took one away.

I do look at my work and it's exemplary.

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118364861#Comment_118364861

True, but we got exactly the same reprimand but the consequences are more severe on me solely because of my age.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365026#Comment_118365026

But now they will be three other years.

Do civil servants get pay rises every year?

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365036#Comment_118365036

I have literally never heard of that happening...what you did must have been bad...what was the reason?

It's not age discrimination they treated you both the same, if it impacts you slightly more it's kind of tough tbh

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365099#Comment_118365099

Up to a certain point if they pass pmds. Past that they get a couple of long service increments (each 3 years but they stop).

Google civil service pay scales all pretty clearly laid out

Xander10

Maybe you should be looking at yourself and assessing why your performance led to the loss of an increment.

From knowledge of the Public Service it would need to be something way below average that caused same.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365026#Comment_118365026

"Best consecutive 3 years"? Never came across that before - is the standard not "average salary for last 3 years". Assuming you're entitled to full 40/80ths pension, losing a €20/week increment will work out to €10/week in pension terms, less if that's averaged.

You don't have grounds to go to the WRC on age discrimination grounds. You might have grounds for appealing the severity of your penalty as it's going to affect your pension, but appealing that to the WRC would likely mean a full case and publicity if it goes to a hearing, which you've every chance of losing. Have you talked to your union officials?

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365113#Comment_118365113

"If it impacts you slightly more" purely based on age is age discrimination.

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365160#Comment_118365160

It's actually best 3 years consecutive from last 10 years.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365221#Comment_118365221

Joe and I robbed a bank together. We both got 20 years. Joe is 60 and will never get out. I'm only 30, I'll be out when I'm 50.

No discrimination.

Your only options are to suck it up, or to appeal the severity of the penalty, in my opinion.

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365351#Comment_118365351

Thanks for the helpful input.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365113#Comment_118365113

Either have I, must have been pretty serious. Will you not gain it back before you retire ? You’d want to be pretty certain you have a case before you challenge it or you could end up worse.

Wheety

Talk to the Union.

Mrs OBumble

OP you're getting dodgy advice here, likely not from lawyers.

Are your union supporting you? They are the first place to start talking about an appeal based on the penalty being disproportionate and/or age discriminatory.

If they aren't, you could try consultancy a solicitor who is familiar with Irish public sector employment and pensions. Only they can give you proper advice. But it may be a difficult case to win without union support.

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118366873#Comment_118366873

I'm told by my union that's it's certainly winnable especially since there has been a two and a half year delay by the department in coming to their conclusion, they blame covid for the delay. However as it's such a small sum about 7 euro a week I get the impression that they are not very interested.

I am speaking to a solicitor in January.

As to the issue itself. I was in a no win situation, It was someone else outside the dept that caused the situation.

I can't really discuss it but It wasn't anything illegal or financial or bullying,

Wheety

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365351#Comment_118365351

I don't think that's a good analogy. Maybe if you said you'll be released after a year but Joe will be under house arrest for the rest of his life?

kirving

Just for some balance, I know someone who lost an increment, and it was very minor IMO.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365221#Comment_118365221

No, it's not. Discrimination is treating someone differently based on one of the nine grounds. Age is obviously one of those grounds.

So in this situation you need to ask yourself how have the Department treated you differently to your colleague based on your age?

It's very difficult to argue they have tbh. At the end of the day you are responsible for your behaviour, you decided to **** up this close to your retirement. Just because the decision has a more serious impact on you doesn't make it discrimination.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365113#Comment_118365113

It happens more often then you might think, people probably just don't go around broadcasting it.

OP, you might have an interesting test case if the Union are willing to support you. I've no clue which way it would go, but I'd follow up and talk to the solicitor too.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118369647#Comment_118369647

That would mean we had been treated differently, so I don't really follow...

OP, it may only be €7/week, but that's €7,500 over 20 years (more, given the pension will go up). If the union will take the case for you to the WRC, it may be worth pursuing - but I don't think you can do it on age-discrimination grounds. If it's not a dispute between the two of you, and you both are being disciplined for doing the same thing and got the same punishment, then I can't see how any discrimination arises. You could well get somewhere with appealing the severity of the penalty. If you're with Forsa, you can get some free legal advice: https://www.forsa.ie/other-benefits/forsa-helplines/

KaneToad

I would definitely think there is grounds for appeal on the severity and on the delays to reach a decision.

A quicker decision could have allowed you to mitigate the financial loss?

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118369814#Comment_118369814

According to citizens advice website

"Indirect discrimination is when practices or policies do not appear to discriminate against one group more than another, but actually have a discriminatory impact"

My situation is a perfect example of this

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118369880#Comment_118369880

But it's not the same punishment, based solely on my age I will be at a loss every week for the rest of my life.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370318#Comment_118370318

It is the same punishment. The impact is different.

kirving

The impact is what counts though, from a moral if not legal perspective.

It might cost a 30yo say €1500 to delay by a year, but doing that to a 63yo would have bigger impact.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370978#Comment_118370978

Yes, exactly. OP is talking about going to the WRC - which is a court. They're not interested in the moral perspective, just the legal one. "You did X, the penalty for doing X was deemed to be Y, penalty Y was applied to both parties who did X."

amen

IANAL but if the Dept took 2.5 years to resolve, you have 2 years left to retirement and they wish to remove an increment why not ask them to back date the increment removal to when the offence took place 2.5 years ago with payment of said loss increment coming out of your current salary( as a deduction)? That way your last three years are retirement will still be your best.

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370482#Comment_118370482

That's called indirect discrimination.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118371141#Comment_118371141

But the effective penalty is not the same.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118371564#Comment_118371564

Near where I used to work, someone regularly parked a Maserati. It used to get clamped around once a week. The owner could clearly afford the parking fine. I could afford a parking fine, but not a regular one, so I didn't park illegally there, I parked further away and walked. Same penalty if I had gotten one, different effect.

MakersMark

Could it be argued that someone longer in the job and system with more experience should be punished more when they mess up?

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118371326#Comment_118371326

I had thought of that but I am guessing the OP would still be down an increment. But if the OP is still getting increments how big is the pension. You could always work an extra year.

Also I would not call it age discrimination as how would they know when you would retire. They can't assume that as that would be discrimination. I know people near 70 still working in the public service

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377699#Comment_118377699

Most older staff have mandatory retirement at 65 written into their contracts.

AnRothar

The op said they are "due" to retire in 2 years.

and I'm die to retire in 2 years.

They don't mention that the must retire in 2 years.

So in all likelihood they can wait out the loss of an increment and simply make up by working an extra year.

I'm told by my union that's it's certainly winnable especially since there has been a two and a half year delay by the department in coming to their conclusion, they blame covid for the delay.

Any appeal would be on the basis of the "delayed" result but they recognize that COVID is a major cause of the delay.

COVID kicked off as a major issue in March 2020 so that's 21 months of the 30 accounted for.

Reading between the lines I get the impression that the union really don't want to take the op's case to appeal.

They seem to accept that the sanction itself was appropriate.

The use of the words  it's certainly winnable as oppose to you are to submit an appeal now and we will support that appeal.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118378070#Comment_118378070

Nope not anymore. There was a case in relation to it. One of the people in my building was in on it. Also my head supervisors is well in her 60's and going. At 70 they go down to point 1 in there grade. Also I do not think the OP is one of those older staff anyway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118378220#Comment_118378220

Even in the past, a case for an extension could be made to stay after 65 if it could be shown that retirement would cause undue financial hardship.

I worked with a guy back in the early 90s who was due to retire at 65 but as he had kids still in full time education he applied for and was granted an extension. He eventually retired at 67 (or maybe it was 68).

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118378104#Comment_118378104

I must retire then rather than due to retire, sorry about the phrasing.

I've talked to the solicitor in the meantime who believes the delay and my age are significant factors.

2 years ago I accepted the decision and wanted to move on.

But I feel that because of circumstances out of my control it shouldn't affect my pension.

Everyone else in the country managed to work on throughout this period.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118414077#Comment_118414077

How long are you in the public/civil service why must you retire. Even if they pushed it back to when it happened it would still effect the pension

billgibney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118414986#Comment_118414986

I'm in since the 90s and have to retire due to age

Our pension is based on best 3 consecutive in the last 10 years

If disciplinary action if applied equally irrespective of age, how is that discrimination? I would have thought it would be discriminatory to treat the op more favourably/younger person less favourably based on age. If they both were disciplined for the breach of conduct, surely the action should be applied equally irrespective of age, regardless of consideration of how the action affects both, it is the same action. If the op recieved a lesser sanction based on being older, the younger employee would surely have a case.

So, you want to be treated advantageously because of your age?

If the case for not giving you the increment is sound (have you appealed?) I don't see a case for age discrimination, imo. This has been a factor since pensions have been calculated, your pay affecting your pension.

I don't see the WRC being sympathetic to you, but it'd be interesting to see what case your solicitor would come up with.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419754#Comment_118419754

If the outcome or effect varies with age, then failing to take age into account may be discriminatory. Loss of a year's increment in a year that is counted for pension calculation will cost someone much more money - many, many times more - than loss of a year's increment in a year that isn't counted for pension calculation. The result is that although both employees are being disciplined for the same infringement, one of them is being given a penalty that is a multiple of the other, simply as a result of his age.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118378070#Comment_118378070

Psst. Tell no one, but that's no longer enforceable.

"I'm in since the 90s and have to retire due to age"

Now, THAT would be age discrimination.

You may need to retire at your NRD, but not for age reasons. You can (BEFORE three months of your NRD) request to be kept on. You then need to be given a reason for not renewing such as succession planning etc.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419836#Comment_118419836

would you apply the same logic to jail sentences? would giving 20 year sentences to a 20 year old and a 70 year old for the same offence be considered age discrimination by that logic?

walkonby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118420008#Comment_118420008

Age is taken into account by judges when sentencing offenders.