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Would you be on board with THIS European Union? (Poll)

  • 22-12-2021 2:04pm
    #1
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,224 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Ten of Swords


    Thread re-posted with a poll option at the original op (TimeUp)'s request


    The UK comes back; Switzerland, Norway and Iceland as well as the tax haven small states of Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco and the like join in too.

    North Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Albania are finally accepted.

    But Turkey, Morocco and Tunisia (three Muslim, arguably European-friendly states) are part of the deal.

    Yes or No?


    Would you be on board with THIS European Union? (Poll) 11 votes

    Yes
    18%
    Hello 2D Person BelowTimeUp 2 votes
    No
    81%
    klazWibbsdam099Gloomtastic!GrasseyDoyler99mike_cork1800_LadladladPeterteanh 9 votes


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ TimeUp


    Yes

    The UK comes back; Switzerland, Norway and Iceland as well as the tax haven small states of Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco and the like join in too.

    North Macedonia, Montenegro and Albania are finally accepted.

    But Turkey, Morocco and Tunisia (three Muslim, arguably European-friendly states) are part of the deal.

    In or out?

    [img]https://i.postimg.cc/YjBpTWrL/ezgif-2-f950946b24.gif[/img]



  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ TimeUp


    Yes




  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ TimeUp


    Yes

    I'd like to add a poll if anyone knows how to do it...



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,224 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Ten of Swords


    Not sure I follow your map

    Why are we kicking Moldova out?

    And why let Norway in but keep Svalbard out? Seems a little unfair



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Moldova are not in currently.

    Morocco applied in the past, but weren't let continue due to the Not Being In Europe issue. They also used to be in Eurovision. EU membership could be a stabilising influence on them but I'm not sure it benefits the rest of the EU at all.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,224 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Ten of Swords


    Genuine question, you have mentioned in the op all of the Balkan nations except Bosnia, and your map excluded them too. They are a Muslim majority nation (by a small margin) and have already applied for EU membership. Why leave them out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,709 ✭✭✭ eskimohunt


    Absolutely not.

    The exact opposite should take place; the EU should crumble under the weight of its anti-democratic bureaucracy - and nations throughout the European continent should work together, as wholly independent nations.

    The last thing we need is more centralisation of power to the core. We need to disperse that power back, as far as possible, to local communities.

    That form of the European Union you've cited is an even worse version than exists now.

    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

    ― George Orwell



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭ Blaaz_


    I dont see whats in it for swiss,norway or iceland to join???


    The uk is more likely to break up into individual countries,including reunification here God-willing, than rejoin as a single entity.......the inclusion of 3 muslim countries of turkey,morroco etc is v.unlikely as morrocco will want its spanish bits back at some stage and you have to wonder would they want to be a member of a union,that allows countries to bring in laws targeting muslims??



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,540 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    It is EUROPEAN Union not the fooking Eurovision.

    Half of Africa would be in Morocco and Tunisia, half of Asia would be in Turkey and we would be told we had to take our share.

    TimeUp are you kite flying or on a wind up?

    I await the usual suspects coming on to lecture us abut helping less well off countries and spreading our liberal ideals. 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ WrenBoy


    Whilst compromising our liberal ideals to suit the sensibilities of others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,540 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    The liberal ideals you and I enjoy in this state and in the current EU were hard won over centuries through the blood of millions.

    All some want to do is throw it all away.

    Our liberal ideas will not be protected and safeguarded by inviting backwards, misogynistic, loo las that want to resort to hacking the heads off people or running them over if they or their backwarPards views are insulted.

    As it is our liberal values and freedoms have already been sacrficed somewhat to counter the threats from some.

    Perhaps you want more Nice's, Berlin's, Stockholm's, Paris's, Manchester's, Cologne's ?

    After having such a terrible time with our own native religion why are so many flutes in this country so gung ho to invite in an even more repressive religious presence?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ WrenBoy


    Are you asking me if I want more attacks like we saw in Nice, Berlin, Stockholm, Paris, Manchester and Cologne ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    No

    I await the usual suspects coming on to lecture us abut helping less well off countries and spreading our liberal ideals.

    I'm fine with helping less well off countries and spreading liberal ideas... it would help take some pressure off immigration into the EU. By encouraging the establishment of stable economies and also stable societies in other nations, they would become attractive to immigrants as a destination, more suited to their religious or cultural desires.

    We need to have solid and successful economies, along with stable societies ourselves if we wish to retain our liberal ideals. I do wonder if people are aware of just how weak Western economies are right now.. and have been for the last decade. In spite of claims of boom periods, debt has been increasing substantially across most industries and government supported agencies, such as educational organisations. Importing the low skilled workers that are common in African and M.Eastern (or simply low end economies such as the Balkans), means increasing an overall strain on our economies.. since these people will need to be provided for whenever the economy dips significantly.

    Opening up Europe to Africa or the M.East would swamp us with low skilled workers... in spite of the fact that we already have a sizable unemployed population in Italy/Spain already. It's simply suicidal for the purpose of short term virtue signals, and likely will result in the end of our liberal ideals anyway.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭ dotsman


    Don't understand why Morocco and Tunisia would be included. Why not Mongolia? They have nothing to do with Europe. Turkey, I can understand why it would be considered, and there would be some benefits (but a lot of potential cons as well) and believe it is a long, long way off (and currently moving in the wrong direction).


    I also am curious why you omitted Bosnia (but did include Serbia, without naming them?). They should absolutely be in the EU at some (not-so-distant) future stage, but only, as with the other countries in that region, where it doesn't cause instability etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,540 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    Ah but you see the idea is not to help people in their own countries, it is to import them into Europe.

    To save them they must come here, after all Europe and us Europeans owe them.

    Sending money to the poor starving ones in Africa is so old school, besides it has a whift of church and colonialism about it.

    Some people just don't have a concept of how it costs more to look after someone in Europe than it would in Africa, Middle East, etc

    I bet if Ethiopian famine kicked off now, not beyond bounds of probability since they are way over populated in comparison to 1980s and they are always tension in area, the response from some would be to fly everyone out.

    Beggaring Europe to save Africa or anywhere else is lunacy.

    Oh and spreading liberal ideals is not equivalent to US and NATO mickie waving in their own interests.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    No

    Oh and spreading liberal ideals is not equivalent to US and NATO mickie waving in their own interests.

    Never believed it was. The US tends to involve a lot of moralising, and hypocritical attitudes towards democracy and honesty (which is sadly lacking in their own country). There's also loads of economic/political costs involved in any US based supports. Nah, I'd view the spread of European liberal ideas to include the foundations towards a secular system with a solid independent economic focus, with elements of socialism involved.

    As for the expansion of NATO, I'd consider that to contribute far more to future conflict than defending against it.

    Some people just don't have a concept of how it costs more to look after someone in Europe than it would in Africa, Middle East, etc

    The same people are likely not considering that most of these migrants won't leave Europe when jobs dry up, because we have extensive welfare supports.. thus increasing the strain on any economy. We're already heading towards rocky ground with the European economy as it is... sure! let's add in a wide number of other nations with extremely shaky economies, and dodgy levels of corruption at all levels of authority. Makes perfect sense... if you want to commit collective suicide.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭ spaceHopper


    Hard No to England coming back, Wales and Scotland can come back if they promise to be be good. We could do a treaty with Turkey, Algeria Morocco but if we let them join do we have to let Egypt and Israel, Lebon and all the others join?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,391 ✭✭✭ Yurt2


    Algeria was part of the EU (Well, the EC before the rebrand) until independence from France in 1962. Strange to think an African country was more integrated into the European project than Ireland fadó fadó.

    Turkey shouldn't be anywhere near the EU the way things are at the moment. Not because they are not 'of Europe' - the Turkish state (at least was) is in the tradition of secular, enlightened European republican values embracing modernity. Kemalism was Turkey's 1848 moment - just nearly a century after. Erdogan is taking a run with the nationalism element and dispensing with everything else that links Turkey to Europe in terms of values.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭ kowloonkev


    The EU is going to kill itself on fringe, barely consequential social issues with populist politicians meddling in other members societal progression. Truth is it would be great to add Turkey but Europe is very lacking in pragmatic leaders.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,576 ✭✭✭✭ BorneTobyWilde


    EU needs reforming. Too much, '' you have to do this to be part of our club''

    Free movement that's fine, but free to live and work anywhere for all the states, no, that should be based upon input, so yes bigger economies should have that right, but I think it ruins the smaller poorer nations, as everyone abandons ship as soon as they join the EU, They end up in Ireland, or Germany ect, Free movement for smaller nations, but not the right to live and work , their nations should prosper in EU, no need to abandon ship.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If anything, I think after Brexit, you’re looking at the EU probably being a lot more cautious about expansion. It’s not about territorial expansion. Rather, it’s been about friendly cooperation, peace and stability. Ultimately it’s a European post WWII peace and stability project, that expanded its remit and also plugged in the countries that had been caught behind the Iron Curtain. Going beyond that is probably way further than it could function as common political basis for it starts to become a bit of a stretch. It isn’t just an economic project and never was.

    I could see the EU looking at growing cooperation agreements, but without membership being the sole objective.

    There are a lot of basic tenants of membership which need to be met and in some cases aren’t even being met by several of the countries that joined in the last accession rounds - such as actually wanting a stable democracy, rule of law, adhering to the European Declaration of Human Rights, having met economic criteria, etc etc.

    Ironically, it was often the UK that was often one of the biggest proponents of rapid EU expansion. It was also one of the few serious enthusiasts for Turkish membership, long after a lot of people had gone cold on the idea as Turkish politics had begun to swing towards authoritarianism and strongman leadership, and seemed to be abandoning what had been an era of secularism and relatively liberal, democratic values.

    I’m not sure what the UK officialdom view of the EU’s future was, but I don’t think it’s one that was necessarily shared on the continent by the original members. Seemed the UK view of it was largely economic and about a looser, shallower and bigger union, rather than a more cautious, deeper union which seems to be the core membership vision for it.

    I strongly suspect we’re headed for a smaller core EU, probably focused on the Eurozone members cooperating more deeply, and periphery of members who might be left to move at their own pace. I don’t see the likes of Hungary, Poland and Romania having the same outlook as the rest for a long time to come and I also don’t see a scenario where those countries will be just let stymie the development of the EU either, so it will end up going at two speeds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,680 ✭✭✭✭ Strumms


    Turkey, Morocco and Tunisia are not even in Europe, why would they be considered for EU membership ? Why not a South American country ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭ kowloonkev


    Who cares? It's about competition and the more countries you can get to form an alliance the stronger you become. Would you prefer they allied with Russia or China?



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  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There’s a HUGE difference between being in an alliance with and being a member of.

    The EU already forms comprehensive trade deals, cooperation agreements and so on with plenty of countries around the world. It does not mean it has to grant them all membership the union. Most of them wouldn’t even want membership in the first place.



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