Would you be on board with THIS European Union? (Poll)

Ten of Swords

Thread re-posted with a poll option at the original op (TimeUp)'s request

The UK comes back; Switzerland, Norway and Iceland as well as the tax haven small states of Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco and the like join in too.

North Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Albania are finally accepted.

But Turkey, Morocco and Tunisia (three Muslim, arguably European-friendly states) are part of the deal.

Yes or No?

TimeUp

Yes

The UK comes back; Switzerland, Norway and Iceland as well as the tax haven small states of Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco and the like join in too.

North Macedonia, Montenegro and Albania are finally accepted.

But Turkey, Morocco and Tunisia (three Muslim, arguably European-friendly states) are part of the deal.

In or out?

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/YjBpTWrL/ezgif-2-f950946b24.gif[/img]

TimeUp

Yes

TimeUp

Yes

I'd like to add a poll if anyone knows how to do it...

banie01

Why would Morroco and Tunisia be included? What is the rationale behind plumping for those countries other than to generate rage responses? Turkey is unlikely to progress beyond anything closer to EU membership than a Customs Union which it already has.

I'm all for gaming out hypotheticals, but flesh out the why. Why would the EU grant accession to members in Africa, who are already part of a separate trade bloc and subject to myriad trade and regulatory rules via the AFTZ and AU?

Ten of Swords

Not sure I follow your map

Why are we kicking Moldova out?

And why let Norway in but keep Svalbard out? Seems a little unfair

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351365#Comment_118351365

Moldova are not in currently.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351364#Comment_118351364

Morocco applied in the past, but weren't let continue due to the Not Being In Europe issue. They also used to be in Eurovision. EU membership could be a stabilising influence on them but I'm not sure it benefits the rest of the EU at all.

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223670/would-you-be-on-board-with-this-european-union

No thanks.

The UK don't want back, they voted on it and wanted out. It doesn't matter if a certain portion of people on the internet and the media aren't happy about it.

Why would Switzerland, Norway and Iceland join, it wouldn't benefit them from their current positions.

Why would African countries be accepted into the EU, shouldn't they be joining the African Union?

The EU adding Turkey will destroy the EU if and when it happens. Wide open borders with the entire middle east and a distinct lack of interest from any of the ruling class to control the flows of tens of millions of economic migrants.

No

Out.

The EU, of any type, should be of European nations who share some similarities in culture. Western philosophy has shaped the elevation of certain values which are commonly held high above others, which are not represented in most countries outside of Europe itself.

Inclusion of non-European nations complicates matters too much with few actual benefits, and brings about a host of problems from conflicting religious/cultural values, to actual governance (corruption) and human rights.

The belief that Turkey should join the EU made a mockery of the overall ambition of having an EU. The inclusion of traditionally non-European states does that same thing. Put Europeans first... and last. God knows, there are enough problems within Europe already, without taking on problems from cultures so different from our own.

Ten of Swords

Genuine question, you have mentioned in the op all of the Balkan nations except Bosnia, and your map excluded them too. They are a Muslim majority nation (by a small margin) and have already applied for EU membership. Why leave them out?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223670/would-you-be-on-board-with-this-european-union

Absolutely not.

The exact opposite should take place; the EU should crumble under the weight of its anti-democratic bureaucracy - and nations throughout the European continent should work together, as wholly independent nations.

The last thing we need is more centralisation of power to the core. We need to disperse that power back, as far as possible, to local communities.

That form of the European Union you've cited is an even worse version than exists now.

osarusan

If Suriname aren't involved I don't want to know about it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223670/would-you-be-on-board-with-this-european-union

I dont see whats in it for swiss,norway or iceland to join???

The uk is more likely to break up into individual countries,including reunification here God-willing, than rejoin as a single entity.......the inclusion of 3 muslim countries of turkey,morroco etc is v.unlikely as morrocco will want its spanish bits back at some stage and you have to wonder would they want to be a member of a union,that allows countries to bring in laws targeting muslims??

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223670/would-you-be-on-board-with-this-european-union

It is EUROPEAN Union not the fooking Eurovision.

Half of Africa would be in Morocco and Tunisia, half of Asia would be in Turkey and we would be told we had to take our share.

TimeUp are you kite flying or on a wind up?

I await the usual suspects coming on to lecture us abut helping less well off countries and spreading our liberal ideals. 🙄

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352376#Comment_118352376

Whilst compromising our liberal ideals to suit the sensibilities of others.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352418#Comment_118352418

The liberal ideals you and I enjoy in this state and in the current EU were hard won over centuries through the blood of millions.

All some want to do is throw it all away.

Our liberal ideas will not be protected and safeguarded by inviting backwards, misogynistic, loo las that want to resort to hacking the heads off people or running them over if they or their backwarPards views are insulted.

As it is our liberal values and freedoms have already been sacrficed somewhat to counter the threats from some.

Perhaps you want more Nice's, Berlin's, Stockholm's, Paris's, Manchester's, Cologne's ?

After having such a terrible time with our own native religion why are so many flutes in this country so gung ho to invite in an even more repressive religious presence?

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352452#Comment_118352452

Are you asking me if I want more attacks like we saw in Nice, Berlin, Stockholm, Paris, Manchester and Cologne ?

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352376#Comment_118352376

I await the usual suspects coming on to lecture us abut helping less well off countries and spreading our liberal ideals.

I'm fine with helping less well off countries and spreading liberal ideas... it would help take some pressure off immigration into the EU. By encouraging the establishment of stable economies and also stable societies in other nations, they would become attractive to immigrants as a destination, more suited to their religious or cultural desires.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352418#Comment_118352418

We need to have solid and successful economies, along with stable societies ourselves if we wish to retain our liberal ideals. I do wonder if people are aware of just how weak Western economies are right now.. and have been for the last decade. In spite of claims of boom periods, debt has been increasing substantially across most industries and government supported agencies, such as educational organisations. Importing the low skilled workers that are common in African and M.Eastern (or simply low end economies such as the Balkans), means increasing an overall strain on our economies.. since these people will need to be provided for whenever the economy dips significantly.

Opening up Europe to Africa or the M.East would swamp us with low skilled workers... in spite of the fact that we already have a sizable unemployed population in Italy/Spain already. It's simply suicidal for the purpose of short term virtue signals, and likely will result in the end of our liberal ideals anyway.

dotsman

Don't understand why Morocco and Tunisia would be included. Why not Mongolia? They have nothing to do with Europe. Turkey, I can understand why it would be considered, and there would be some benefits (but a lot of potential cons as well) and believe it is a long, long way off (and currently moving in the wrong direction).

I also am curious why you omitted Bosnia (but did include Serbia, without naming them?). They should absolutely be in the EU at some (not-so-distant) future stage, but only, as with the other countries in that region, where it doesn't cause instability etc.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352499#Comment_118352499

Ah but you see the idea is not to help people in their own countries, it is to import them into Europe.

To save them they must come here, after all Europe and us Europeans owe them.

Sending money to the poor starving ones in Africa is so old school, besides it has a whift of church and colonialism about it.

Some people just don't have a concept of how it costs more to look after someone in Europe than it would in Africa, Middle East, etc

I bet if Ethiopian famine kicked off now, not beyond bounds of probability since they are way over populated in comparison to 1980s and they are always tension in area, the response from some would be to fly everyone out.

Beggaring Europe to save Africa or anywhere else is lunacy.

Oh and spreading liberal ideals is not equivalent to US and NATO mickie waving in their own interests.

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352825#Comment_118352825

Oh and spreading liberal ideals is not equivalent to US and NATO mickie waving in their own interests.

Never believed it was. The US tends to involve a lot of moralising, and hypocritical attitudes towards democracy and honesty (which is sadly lacking in their own country). There's also loads of economic/political costs involved in any US based supports. Nah, I'd view the spread of European liberal ideas to include the foundations towards a secular system with a solid independent economic focus, with elements of socialism involved.

As for the expansion of NATO, I'd consider that to contribute far more to future conflict than defending against it.

Some people just don't have a concept of how it costs more to look after someone in Europe than it would in Africa, Middle East, etc

The same people are likely not considering that most of these migrants won't leave Europe when jobs dry up, because we have extensive welfare supports.. thus increasing the strain on any economy. We're already heading towards rocky ground with the European economy as it is... sure! let's add in a wide number of other nations with extremely shaky economies, and dodgy levels of corruption at all levels of authority. Makes perfect sense... if you want to commit collective suicide.

spaceHopper

Hard No to England coming back, Wales and Scotland can come back if they promise to be be good. We could do a treaty with Turkey, Algeria Morocco but if we let them join do we have to let Egypt and Israel, Lebon and all the others join?

Yurt2

Algeria was part of the EU (Well, the EC before the rebrand) until independence from France in 1962. Strange to think an African country was more integrated into the European project than Ireland fadó fadó.

Turkey shouldn't be anywhere near the EU the way things are at the moment. Not because they are not 'of Europe' - the Turkish state (at least was) is in the tradition of secular, enlightened European republican values embracing modernity. Kemalism was Turkey's 1848 moment - just nearly a century after. Erdogan is taking a run with the nationalism element and dispensing with everything else that links Turkey to Europe in terms of values.

Peregrinus

The hypothetical is absurd. None of the three Muslim-majoirty states mentioned are pursuing EU membership and, even if they were, there is no reason at all why their admission should be linked to that of the UK, Iceland, Switzerland, etc; these are independent questions which in the real world are answered independently. Plus, the hypothetical postulates membership by Morocco, etc, while ignoring Muslim-majority Bosnia, and simply assuming membership for Muslim-majority Albania - both of those countries are pursuing EU membership. The salient issue with Morocco, Tunisia and Turkey is not that they are Muslim-majority; it is that they are situated largely or entirely outside the European continent.

kowloonkev

The EU is going to kill itself on fringe, barely consequential social issues with populist politicians meddling in other members societal progression. Truth is it would be great to add Turkey but Europe is very lacking in pragmatic leaders.

BorneTobyWilde

EU needs reforming. Too much, '' you have to do this to be part of our club''

Free movement that's fine, but free to live and work anywhere for all the states, no, that should be based upon input, so yes bigger economies should have that right, but I think it ruins the smaller poorer nations, as everyone abandons ship as soon as they join the EU, They end up in Ireland, or Germany ect, Free movement for smaller nations, but not the right to live and work , their nations should prosper in EU, no need to abandon ship.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354693#Comment_118354693

If free movement doesn't mean the right of EU citizens to live and work throughout the Union, then what do you think it does mean?

Plus, I think you are proposing limiting free movement for the smaller, poorer countries on the assumption that they suffer from EU membership and "need to abandon ship". In fact the reverse is the case; the economic impact for smaller, poorer countries joining the EU is strong and beneficial. Poland, Slovakia and the Baltic countries all saw GDP gains of more than 50% in the ten years following accession. Countries that were already relatively rich, like Hungary and the Czech Republic, saw lower, but still strongly positive, GDP growth following accession. And I don't think any of the new accession countries have sought to have their freedom of movement limited on the grounds that it damages them.

In short, I think you're proposing a solution that makes no sense to a problem that doesn't exist.

If anything, I think after Brexit, you’re looking at the EU probably being a lot more cautious about expansion. It’s not about territorial expansion. Rather, it’s been about friendly cooperation, peace and stability. Ultimately it’s a European post WWII peace and stability project, that expanded its remit and also plugged in the countries that had been caught behind the Iron Curtain. Going beyond that is probably way further than it could function as common political basis for it starts to become a bit of a stretch. It isn’t just an economic project and never was.

I could see the EU looking at growing cooperation agreements, but without membership being the sole objective.

There are a lot of basic tenants of membership which need to be met and in some cases aren’t even being met by several of the countries that joined in the last accession rounds - such as actually wanting a stable democracy, rule of law, adhering to the European Declaration of Human Rights, having met economic criteria, etc etc.

Ironically, it was often the UK that was often one of the biggest proponents of rapid EU expansion. It was also one of the few serious enthusiasts for Turkish membership, long after a lot of people had gone cold on the idea as Turkish politics had begun to swing towards authoritarianism and strongman leadership, and seemed to be abandoning what had been an era of secularism and relatively liberal, democratic values.

I’m not sure what the UK officialdom view of the EU’s future was, but I don’t think it’s one that was necessarily shared on the continent by the original members. Seemed the UK view of it was largely economic and about a looser, shallower and bigger union, rather than a more cautious, deeper union which seems to be the core membership vision for it.

I strongly suspect we’re headed for a smaller core EU, probably focused on the Eurozone members cooperating more deeply, and periphery of members who might be left to move at their own pace. I don’t see the likes of Hungary, Poland and Romania having the same outlook as the rest for a long time to come and I also don’t see a scenario where those countries will be just let stymie the development of the EU either, so it will end up going at two speeds.

Strumms

Turkey, Morocco and Tunisia are not even in Europe, why would they be considered for EU membership ? Why not a South American country ?

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354714#Comment_118354714

Who cares? It's about competition and the more countries you can get to form an alliance the stronger you become. Would you prefer they allied with Russia or China?

There’s a HUGE difference between being in an alliance with and being a member of.

The EU already forms comprehensive trade deals, cooperation agreements and so on with plenty of countries around the world. It does not mean it has to grant them all membership the union. Most of them wouldn’t even want membership in the first place.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354717#Comment_118354717

You can have an alliance without admitting them to the EU… look at NATO. turkey are there.

fritzelly

How could anyone let the nutcase leader of Turkey in to the EU - I think with a Western looking leader in charge it wouldn't be that bad but by god at this moment?

The other African countries WTF?

I'm sure there is some historian who can make arguments for parallels about what is happening or what is being proposed - history does have a tendency to repeat itself

Podge_irl

The entire point of this thread appears to be to make up a completely implausible scenario and then complain about it despite the fact it is never going to happen.

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354717#Comment_118354717

Because the OP phrased this along the lines of the EU. A European union. Not NATO or some other kind of alliance.

European. Those countries are not European, and shouldn't be allowed to join. There are heaps of benefits to a strict adherence to a solely European construct.

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354893#Comment_118354893

We come here (boards) to discuss ideas, and express our opinions. If you're not interested, why bother posting to the thread?

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354714#Comment_118354714

Fench Guyana in South America is already in the EU and Cyprus is farther east than a good deal of Turkey.

Ten of Swords

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351344#Comment_118351344

I can add one, it'll mean modifying the thread a bit (nobody's posts, or more importantly thanks, will be lost - I think 🙄)

it's not as straightforward as it was on the old site.

PM me the poll options you want

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354893#Comment_118354893

Yeah, I suspect it is just an attempt to attack either the EU or certain countries perhaps.

seenitall

No one is going to be on board of that kind of change, well not most of the EU anyway. The Dutch, the Danish, even the French are extremely expansion-averse as regards the east, the Dutch at the moment have a problem with admitting an EU country (Croatia) into Schengen, let alone admitting any other countries into the union, even the candidates of long standing, with their “chapters”, forget it.

Any expansion is not going to happen for a long time, but I can foresee the alliances such as V4 and Med9 gaining more prominence within the EU, and France certainly wants to push closer ties with North Africa, however no one else is enamoured with that either. Germany on the other hand will now push for an ever closer union (toward federalisation), I think that might prove a very tricky ambition for them!

I think the EU is slowly devolving and changing, there are now too many interests pulling in all different directions and too many cooks, as we know, spoil the broth. Interesting times ahead, and you don’t even need to evoke North Africa into this story to make them so.

Capt'n Midnight

The EFTA countries get most of the benefits of EU membership right now so they know exactly what they are doing.

Monaco, San Marino, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Vatican, UK areas on Cyprus, all follow EU customs rules.

Andorra and Turkey are in the customs union for non-agricultural products.

UK is the outlier by it's own choice.

Albania, the Republic of North Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey are candidate countries. , Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo would be next in line.

Scotland would be a shoe-in for EFTA membership where they'd get most of EU benefits they could later converge to EU membership but almost certainly the UK's historical opt-outs would be grandfathered in. For example we are in the CTA which is a mini-Schengen and Sweden consistently missed the criteria for adopting the Euro for longer than the Euro has existed.

That's enough to be going on with for now.

seenitall

B-H is in a heap of internal political trouble at the moment, each of the three nations involved are pulling politics in a different direction, we are a long time from Dayton and the ghosts of the ‘90s have arisen again. Dayton seems to be seen as a political football and an optional element more than anything these days, the levers of power-sharing are seriously messed up now. It’s dangerous stuff and I don’t see B-H getting into EU as it is. (Although, ironically, that would be the best place for it as the numbers of its inhabitants are small enough and the first place a good amount of young people would end up in is on the building sites and in the hospitality establishments of Germany or Ireland. No young people = no one to fight nationalistic wars over territory with their ‘90s era shrapnels and stuff. Also, some places and politics are getting very islamised these days, so one more reason to admit it into EU and defuse things. However, with the way the European politics are going atm, there are also reasons not to, and I don’t think it will happen.)

Kosovo is also problematic, unfortunately things there haven’t completely played out yet. I can’t see them getting into EU either.

It’s not realistic to expect that expansion. The EU is becoming more inward-looking. Enough to be dealing with, exactly (and sadly).

Its a bit of a theoretical exam-like moot question.

First of all, its for the individual countries to want to join. The ones you have highlighted are a mixed bag of those that have no intentions of joining at the moment (eg UK, Norway), those that might given the right conditions (eg Switzerland, Turkey), those that are currently negotiating to join (Albania, Montenegro, North Macedonia and Serbia) and those that are probably never going to join given that they're not actually in Europe (eg Morocco, Tunisia).

Once they want to join, there are obviously checks to pass and procedures to follow, these are for individual countries to address and prove over time, it's not a big "here lads do you fancy joining a kickabout" sort of thing. Then the current 27 have to vote on it so its still not a foregone conclusion.

If an amount of countries do join, lets say Albania and Serbia (and don't forget this process generally takes 10 years) and for some reason Ireland are not happy with that, yet didn't vote against the expansion, then Ireland would have to decide if the expansion was enough for them to want to exit the EU, and then start their own exit procedures. This is also likely to take 10 years going by the UK fiasco.

There's a reason why things are as ordered and snail-like in the EU as they are. This is probably (yet another) one thing the UK population didn't take into account in their mad rush to exit and make rich Torys richer - once left, it is not a simple matter to rejoin. This isn't Eurovision where you can be in one year and out the next. It's not like a new pro-EU government can be elected and suddenly it's as you were. Its a long drawn out process and I can see a fairly long line of countries casting a veto against the UK re-joining. They have been particularly nasty to France recently (even more than usual), who probably now think de Gaulle was right to block them in the 60s. And Spain might fancy Gibraltar before considering letting them in again. No doubt there are others. Personally I don't see the UK back in the EU in my lifetime.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354749#Comment_118354749

"How could anyone let the nutcase leader of Turkey in to the EU"

Its a good point, not just for Turkey. when the EU admits a country its not just the country as it currently stands, but the country as it might be in decades to come.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354714#Comment_118354714

I would throw in a few Caribbean islands and maybe the Seychelles and the Maldives. No harm with the odd exchange programme either....

😀

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354717#Comment_118354717

I would rather have Russia in the EU than North African countries where they have alien cultures and where slavery still exists in the 21st Century.

Having Russia in the EU would be like keeping your enemies closer and it would add huge military power to the EU if it needed it for whatever reason. I think Russians are more compatible with EU culture than North African countries.

ancapailldorcha

Absolutely. I don't really see any reason not to aside from the fact that expansion of the EU's membership isn't going to happen for at least a decade if not multiple decades.

Yurt2

Kind of off-topic but can one as an Irish citizen live and work under EU rights in one of those far-flung French holdings like French Guyana or Martinique?

Unlike British dependencies in far-off places, don't the French treat them administratively as if they were Toulouse or Paris?

Richard Hillman

I just want a free trade and free movement agreement. Like the way it used to be. That's it.

franciscanpunk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357696#Comment_118357696

Tbf Turkey and Morocco have both applied at different stages to join the union, tunisia is close to southern europe at least

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223670/would-you-be-on-board-with-this-european-union

Why are you accepting Macedonia, Montenegro and Albania but leaving out other former Yugoslavia states?