What breed for summer grazing bullocks to sell as stores?

n1st

If you were to purchase 16 weanlings in March and sell in November, what breed would you choose? Probably bullocks but maybe heifers.

No feed, no silage, just grass.

Bass Reeves

The risk with this system is if you get locked up with TB. Summer grazing stores is all about the weight you can put on them. Weight decides margin. There was s a chance that you could slaughter heifers straight off grass in October/ November.

Cavanjack

Going by this back end there was a great demand for aa and white head stores. If you could buy them at 300kg they’d be easy kept over the summer.

Hard Knocks

If you’re buying for summer grazing to sell in the Autumn then it’s hard to go past Charolais and Limousine. Remember the day you buy is the day you sell, as in if you buy ad good one you’ll have a good one to sell.

They’ll not make you much money but they’ll cover themselves, keep the place clean and lift the payments

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118337550#Comment_118337550

If the proposed climate action plan to reduce the slaughter age of prime beef comes to pass what affect will it have on the viability of continental bred bullocks?

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/reducing-slaughter-age-will-it-make-financial-sense/

Fine Day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118337550#Comment_118337550

A half decent Friesian bullock all the way. Leave a far better margin no matter what the market is in my opinion. But if you prefer looking a good stock then stick to the Charolais and limousines. It's all about the figures for me. Small scale enterprise here so figures are important to survive.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118338947#Comment_118338947

Insanity

Less methane ...if you don't count the concentrates you have to feed to finish them out of the shed.

Ffs

Cavanjack

He’ll be sorry he asked. We’ve only a couple of breeds left to advise him to buy 😀. he’ll have to buy 16 different breeds and come back this time next year and tell us which of us was right.

Belongamick

Red Limos - Ch too expensive.

A poor quality animal will eat as much as a good animal - stay away from FR in my opinion.

Just think the continentals respond well to a pinch of concentrates in Sept/Oct.

Slight word of caution - keep an eye for pneumonia if buying early in the year. Imagine how warm a shed can be this week and the same stock will be out in rough weather next march.

Fine Day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118340164#Comment_118340164

He best go and do his own thing. Everyone has there own opinions. Your not going to make a fortune on that system. Spring is the worst time of the year to be buying. Maybe that will change now with fertilizer prices.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118339885#Comment_118339885

I agree although but with the very important caveat - who is going to properly pay the farmer who rears these dairy calves. Selling them for 1.23 to 1.37/kg @ 250/350kg isn't viable but some farmers do it year on year.

I have previously posted on F&F our costs for rearing (250/300) FR/FRx bull suck calves albeit a few years ago. For those that haven't seen the posts - it cost us €85/hd for cmr, Rispoval RS+Pi3 intranasal vaccine and a dose of Bovicox. Those costs don't include the purchase price of the calf, heating water for cmr, straw for bedding, hay/straw for roughage, transport/mart or labour charges but do include discounts that we got for bulk purchases/early settlements for cmr and veterinary products. We bought in and hauled our own straw/hay and used to rear calves to beef.

** edit to add FRx

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118338947#Comment_118338947

Surely they'll give a better conversion rate tahn dairy calve

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118340459#Comment_118340459

I would think so, but the emissions of a suckler cow for 12 months is also on their back whereas the same emissions are on the milk output of the cow when considering dairy calves

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118340558#Comment_118340558

I'm still convinced the calculations will be proved wrong, must be my old age I suppose, can't see the harm in cattle eating grass

wrangler

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118340459#Comment_118340459

The proposed new climate action plan doesn't give a feck about conversation rates - it demands a early slaughter age irrespective of breed.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118340596#Comment_118340596

I killed all my sucklers at 22 mths and less

Conversion rates my dear, conversation is for humans 😎

Fine Day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118340319#Comment_118340319

I do not rear dairy calves and have not done so in many years. I cannot verify your figures, but I have no doubt there are correct.

Not sure why you are referring to the cost of rearing a dairy calf as it was not mentioned on my post (and in particular using bold letters) I simple said the margins were better from a Friesian bullock in my opinion based on my experience only. If you want to go into rearing dairy calf costs then we should mention the cost a suckler farmer has to rear a calf which is much more than a dairy calf. Suckler stock do not get the value they deserve by the factories. I am not sure if you have ever seen a dairy carcass (any breed) against a suckler carcass. There is no comparison. The size of the bones from the dairy stock would shock you. I do hope our suckler farming stays going as they are a very important sector in this industry. Hats of to them.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118340217#Comment_118340217

I feel that dairy bred stock are going to be the ones to feel the pinch this spring with the rise in price of the 3 F's fertiliser, feed and fuel. Best value maybe in the AAx and HEX category. Never under estimate the margin that can be left with a FR. It's all about the bit in the middle, sale price minus cost price. Being flexible with breeds can strike value.

A word of caution to the OP is don't get too concerned with breed, it's what you can out the most weight on.

My personal preference would be AA or Hex heifers. If you get close to 500kg next back end you are in the hit zone for the hook.

Looking at the current climate and predictions regarding hospitality and covid. There is going to be a pinch point with potential issues with reduced socialisation of people, thus affecting sales with indoors and the virus. Summer should spark an opening, leading into autumn with maybe a rise of the virus at the back end of the year.

Fine Day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342979#Comment_118342979

Looks like a fine animal the black bullock. Seems to have a nice bit of width on the shoulders. Hard to tell from pictures but I'd say the red bullock has the scope to take another few kgs. What kinda of diet have you them on. I have a few Friesian Bullocks (22months) on silage and about 2kgs of beef finisher for the last week, but I will probably increase it in the new year. I have never finished friesian bullocks in the shed so I would appreciate any advice. Have finished them off the grass before 30 months and was happy with the results.

Fine Day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344514#Comment_118344514

I think you are right & thank you for the advise. They may just end up going to to grass next spring with abit meal also. Time will tell I suppose but I am very happy on how there are doing so far. I would love to up the meal in the new year to shove them on but it's a big cost specialy when I have never winter finished Friesian Bullocks. But I suppose if you want results you need to do it. I will see in the new year.

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223273/what-breed-for-summer-grazing-bullocks-to-sell-as-stores

What sort of land type are you working with is my first counter question?

If I had fair quality dry land to work with then I'd be recommending a good type CHx or LMx yearling bullock. Yes they'll be hard enough on the pocket the first day but you'll always have something saleable afterwards. The right one will do a good thrive over the summer and there's always sale for quality continental cattle in the autumn no matter what the trade is like.

However if you have more marginal land to work with then it's a different ball game imo. If you're steadfast on grass as you're only fodder source from purchase to sale then you'll need something a bit more rugged than a continental. A proper type AAx or HEx bullock or preferably a heifer would stand more of a chance of living rather than just existing in such a scenario. You'll want something that can thrive over the summer and be a reasonable forward store come sale time. With heifers they might even be fat or atleast fleshy in the autumn if you bought the right sorts.

Tb is going to be you're biggest issue in a trading system depending on returning to the live ring. It's not an issue until it becomes an issue but it's something to bear in mind. Ultimately you're not going to become rich off any of the options available but it would be nice to keep the grass ate, draw the sub and still have something out of the stock themselves. You want to be selling a better animal than what you bought, if you start off with a decent type of any colour and keep the kilos piling on then you'll most likely do OK.

CloughCasey1

Why don't you try half red/golden chx/lmx 400kg and half off colour suckler bred cattle from same breeds. There will be competition from the ringside for the first half. Not so much for the second half. If you put 200kg on their back and have 600kg animals by autumn then it will be finishers that will be buying. They will have a little less heed in colour and more heed in weight and confirmation at that stage. Your reds/oranges will bring bigger prices but will they leave the same margin?

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223273/what-breed-for-summer-grazing-bullocks-to-sell-as-stores

Nothing to be made from Weanlens to stores. Buying in March you'll feed them for the Summer and sell them for the exact same money you paid for them. Doesn't matter the Breed either, you'll hear how theirs a few bob out of dairy type stock and how they can leave a great margin, well that's only half true because half the time with dairy type stock their is no market for them when you go to sell them in the fall.

If it were me and I just want to Summer graze and make a few bob with a safety exit I'd be buying a few cull Suckler cows in Feb/March. Stick a cheap AI straw into them as they come bulling in May. By Oct/Nov they should be factory fit provided you are not overgrazing. It's a safe system as it doesn't matter if they go down with TB your still sending to the factory so you are not caught with stock for the winter

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352259#Comment_118352259

I’d say the last buyer was Bass

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118352259#Comment_118352259

The continentals are a prime example of the summer grazing system I'd be advocating. Buying reasonable value and piling on the kilos afterwards to have a saleable animal in the backend. Overall a good performance but nothing impossible to achieve 9 times out of 10.

I'd have very little knowledge of Friesians which may become apparent in the following musings. Is €2 a kg not a bit excessive for a light black and white bullock even at the height of spring led "grass fever"? I'd have been expecting them to be coming in at sub €600 to be any great value. A small touch more would buy a middling suckler bred beast most springs and you'd better buying imo. Also he bought a light type long keep bullock and he sold a long keep bullock at a worse time of year.

You need to be selling a better class of animal than you're buying imo. Unless you're getting them very cheap the first day it rarely pays to let them stall. The first example was buying a hungry beast and getting good compensatory growth and overall thrive which is what puts the scales down come sale time. The second one seemed to me to be buying a well done animal, giving them a middling do and selling them looking there worst facing into another long winter, there autumn 2022 type cattle.

kk.man

If buying fr bullocks in the spring you need to kill them yourself. You will get hammered for re showing them again.

Fine Day

I got good quality friesian bullocks as Friesian Bullocks go in April & none of them went above €1.60/kg including fees. Some of them were 380kgs with some been under under 300kgs. I had an agent in 2 weeks ago buying a few black white heads heifers from me and he was saying Mr Goodman is paying €1.80kg to €1.90kg for store Friesian bullock. whether that is the truth or not but I have no reason not to believe this agent. But as we all know things have improved alot in the last 6 months.

As what I was advised when I started out a few years ago by a couple of older guys was keep the cost down and don't get carried away, meaning do get into money trouble as it could ruin ya. The OP here sounds like they might be just starting out and so they might not be in a position or want to make a big investment at this stage.

Fine Day

Great prices. Give confidence for the near Future. If that is save to say.

kk.man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118353568#Comment_118353568

I gave 1.80 for fr bullocks in the spring (I had to as that was their price). I be after the better types. I won't pay that next spring if fertilizer goes that way they say it will.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118353754#Comment_118353754

I was told 840 a tonne for pasture sward in the Spring by a man in the Kerry co-op shop.

They'll have plenty of it but the price is...

The op should take the above in to account as well and how it will might affect Cattle prices.

Plainer cattle might get a beating on price in marts. Light cattle as well.

Cavanjack

If the beef trade is good then fertilizer prices will have little impact on store/weanling prices IMO.

It mightn’t be the popular thing to say but I’m going to carry on as usual and try and get a good first cut. Going to try and get all the silage ground covered in slurry and 2-3 bags of can depending on the grass cover.

I should have plenty of bales over after this winter so one cut should do me. If I can get can at €700 I’m working it out at just over €15 a head extra per head of finished cattle compared to this year. For the sake of one year I’m not going to worry too much about it.

Anto_Meath

There is only money to be made on cattle once for anyone along the line, be it the person selling the weanling, store of beef animal. For 1 of those to make money the others have to loose. When it comes to FR cattle the only way to make money on them is to bring them to beef as cheap as you can. If they are fit to kill you will get their value in the factory. Got €1600+ for FRS under 30 months grass fed this year. But with continentals you always have the option of the ring and regularly do as well or even better in the ring than you would in the factory. For OP the things he needs to consider are what type of cattle does his land feed best. What is there the best market for when returning to the mart.

Personally I think 1 of the most profitable animals that can be fed is the AAx heifer, get her killed at circa 300kgs DW @ €4.70 a kg is €1,400 & u ll pick them up all spring at €2:30 / kg 500kgs €1,150 & she will have no bother putting on the 100Kgs on grass to give you 300 kg DW.

Easten

To get to 300kgs DW what would her live weight be?

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354993#Comment_118354993

570-600kg

Anto_Meath

The benefit of feeding cattle to a slaughter weight in the back end is, if you do end up with TB you can de-stock your farm in say November, have no cattle for 4 months and you are free to buy away at cattle again at the end of March, chances are you will have to have one test once you purchases cattle but still that is better than going down in a test and been left with store cattle and no feed or accommodation over the winter.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354601#Comment_118354601

4.7/ kg might be optimistic even for AA cattle. However you supposition is correct. I would seriously consider heifers in the the 400-450 kg bracket maybe even a tad lighter. If you bought in March/April you would have 6-8 months to get 50-200 kgs on them. Even smaller framed AA, HE or Continental bullocks should be considered.

As long as you do not overpay for cattle you have a chance of turning a margin. Paying 2.2-2.5/ kg LW or 850-1000 euro/ head you be hoping they hang 280 kgs @4.3/kg or 1200/ head leaving a margin of 280/ head.

Biggest problem with this system is that you could end up with a lot of cattle at year end that are nearly finished with a huge grass demand.

If you cod mix and match with a bunch black of older cattle that could be slaughtered in August/ early September you might manage it. However it's a capital intensive business. Most summer grazing systems are capable of minimum stocking rates of an animal per acre. 40 acre farm would cost 35-50k to run such a system.

JohnChadwick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350087#Comment_118350087

Does this imply you are sending the cows to the factory in calf?

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385513#Comment_118385513

Yes, but they would only be a couple of weeks in calf so when the cow is slaughtered the calf inside her is no more than 0.5kg and the size of an orange.

JohnChadwick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385867#Comment_118385867

Yea I know that but I'm wondering what the rational would be behind putting them in calf at all. Like, what's the business case for AI'ing them?

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385893#Comment_118385893

They put on condition much quicker as soon as they go in calf and fatten quicker. Its a hormonal thing in a cow.

As an aside the tenderest and best steaks come from a pregnant heifer.

Doesn't make great reading from a moral point of view but it is what it is

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385867#Comment_118385867

If you inseminated them in May and then had them factory fit by November ( your previous post ) how would they only be a few weeks in calf ?

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118386367#Comment_118386367

A few months so, and 6 months max if they happen to come bulling on the 1st of May. Once in-calf and on good grass for the Summer it is very unlikely to take 6 months to get them factory fit. I've seen Cows go from skin and bone to Mud fat in 4 months

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118386367#Comment_118386367

Its unlikly you would inseminate them too much workload. If you do it ideally tou want the cow or heifer no ore than 6 months incalf. Its unlikly that any dry cow that you have in May will still be around in November, more than likly they would be hung in August/September at the lates.

it always amazes me how squemish we are about this( now I do not do cow or heifers so I do not do it) but aborting babies at 16-20 weeks is totally legal in a lot of places accross the world

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118387036#Comment_118387036

Surely the issue is the morality of putting a cow in calf in the certain knowledge that both will be killed within a short period of time ? Why put them in calf in the first place ?

A significant number of us are still opposed to aborting babies at any stage of gestation with limited exceptions . Just because a feeble government was forced by pressure groups to allow the abortion industry to gain a foothold here doesn’t make it acceptable .

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118387657#Comment_118387657

Ah listen we are talking about summer grazing options, it was explained the benefit of having the cow go in calf as it reduces feed costs and improves performance. The problem with some cows is they remain as thin as laths and no amount of grass or feedstuffs puts weight on them, but as soon as they go in calf they start to put on weight. It's the Cows natural way to build itself up for the future feeding of the Calf.

As for the issue of Morality, that's in short supply as far as the Consumer is concerned, if it was then they wouldn't tolerate battery Chicken, pig reproduction cages, Cows milk etc etc

It's really an issue for another thread in fairness