Formula 1 Round 22 Abu Dhabi GP

tobefrank321 · 13-12-2021 12:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314339#Comment_118314339

Why should I have to give examples?

Who on earth wants the tightest F1 championship in history decided behind a safety car? If they do, just give F1 a miss and find some other sport.

This championship was decided by two drivers going man to man and one driver losing his bottle while the other driving brilliantly. That's how we want it decided.

The rules have been inconsistantly applied all season, most people agree on that. That's because F1 is a fast sport. But the rules and mistakes even themselves out.

We can go back over numerous examples where one team or another benefitted.

Mercedes being allowed put a new engine in for the last 4 races is just a joke for example, but within the rules. They got a 5 place penalty which Hamilton made up in a couple of laps and then went on to win the race at a cantor.

In the last race, Verstappen is asked to give up his position after going off the track. When Hamilton goes off he's not asked to give it up.

Ultimately it was fair and right, with all the rule inconsistances that the two front runners were allowed to race it out. Hamilton had ample opportunity to win on the last lap. Verstappen had one opportunity to pass and took it. Hamiliton had 2 or 3 and failed to take any.

Better driver won. I know that won't go down well with people who wanted it decided by the lawyers, but who cares.

quokula · 13-12-2021 12:53PM

https://youtu.be/OO0y1yDBURs

This radio conversation really highlights the reality of what happened, for all Mercedes complaining. Standard procedure is to let the lapped cars through and get going and that’s what everyone expected to happen. When they first announced they weren’t going to do it, undoubtedly due to the continued heavy lobbying from Toto, it was blatantly clear to other drivers like Alonso that this was being done to fix the race.

Good sense eventually prevailed and correct procedures were eventually followed, but due to the delays there wasn’t enough time for all lapped cars to make it through, but that was the lesser of two evils over throwing out the standard procedure to favour Mercedes.

Faugheen · 13-12-2021 01:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314413#Comment_118314413

And I could reply to this with Ricciardo’s team radio at the end where he made very clear that it was a shitshow and that he was glad he wasn’t involved in it. Stroll was fuming (more for his own race rather than the title fight but still).

Lando has also gone public about it. It’s dividing the drivers as well, despite what Alonso says his opinion isn’t the only one in the paddock.

Mitch Connor · 13-12-2021 01:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314310#Comment_118314310

But it is only wrong because process and rules were not followed. Had they been, maintaining track position was the correct call. The SC should have been in the following lap, not the lap it came in on.

And the stewards saying once the message was given it had to happen is a misnomer. Yes, the SC had to come in once the message was given.... but the message should not have been given in the first place. That is the problem.

PaoloGotti · 13-12-2021 01:01PM

It didn’t sit right with me when Toto called for no SC to Masi when Giovanazzi retired - that was bad form.

And then he wants the race to finish under the SC?!

The lead driver is regularly at a disadvantage under a SC condition - the old track position vs fresh tyres predicament. Lewis lost out on this occasion and accepted it gracefully.

tobefrank321 · 13-12-2021 01:01PM

Here's the rule on unlapping:

[quote]

The Formula 1® regulations for 2021 state: "If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message 'LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE' has been sent to all competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.

"This will only apply to cars that were lapped at the time they crossed the line at the end of the lap during which they crossed the first safety car line for the second time after the safety car was deployed. Having overtaken the cars on the lead lap and the safety car these cars should then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and make every effort to take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car.

"Whilst they are overtaking, and in order to ensure this may be carried out safely, the cars on the lead lap must always stay on the racing line unless deviating from it is unavoidable. Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap."

The rules do not specify whether the race director may allow only some of the lapped cars to pass, and not all. This is why Michael Masi's decision to release only the cars between Verstappen and Hamilton, allowing for a final lap of racing between the title contenders, has caused such a debate.

[/quote]

Abu Dhabi Grand Prix last-lap… | Formula 1® Australian Grand Prix

Unlapping is within the rules.

But the main rule is the Race Director can pull in the Safety car any time he wants, regardless of how many cars are unlapped.

Mercedes have nothing to stand on here. Move on, take it on the chin. They should stop trying to turn it into a borefest.

Burkie1203 · 13-12-2021 01:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314368#Comment_118314368

Toto was doing exactly the same. Mid race a car parked up on exit of T9 I think. Toto was on race radio telling the RD not to put out a safety car. So who was influencing who?

bucketybuck · 13-12-2021 01:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314411#Comment_118314411

I think you know damn well you have no examples of the race director selectively telling some cars to go but others to stay in that fashion.

Tell me though, if not finishing behind the safety car was the overriding concern, why not just say that no cars will be unlapping themselves and that the race will be restarting immediately?

That would have been far more logical, no?

Mitch Connor · 13-12-2021 01:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314413#Comment_118314413

So the lesser of two evils is to throw out standard procedure that would have favoured Hamliton, in favour of making up rules to favour Max.

Probes · 13-12-2021 01:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314465#Comment_118314465

I think there are inconsistencies in the rules that have plagued the entirety of the championship. This was just one of many, I don’t think it is necessarily wrong though, just inconsistent. This one call is highlighted because it was the last lap of the season, but there have been many more that have effected the championship too.

thurlesdrunk · 13-12-2021 01:09PM

https://9gag.com/gag/aE8Rw6G

tobefrank321 · 13-12-2021 01:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314479#Comment_118314479

I pointed out the rule where the race director can pull in the safety car whenever he wants. I seem to be the only one here linking to rules.

Care to link to the rule where it says the race director must leave the safety car out until every eligible car is unlapped?

At this stage you're just selecting the rules you like and ignoring the ones you don't. Just like Mercedes.

bucketybuck · 13-12-2021 01:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314524#Comment_118314524

Speaking of ignoring, why not answer the question?

Why did Masi not take the logical step of no cars unlapping and just restarting the race?

SlickRic · 13-12-2021 01:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314155#Comment_118314155

It was obviously done with entertainment in mind, rather than leaning on the rules.

I really don't care who won. I've never been a big fan of Lewis. He's got away with some shenanigans over the years. He had his moments, like Max, this season too.

Max annoyed me with his driving in Qatar. he just looked quite crazed, and he gave every reason for Lewis to paint him, as he did, as a madly dangerous driver.

but objectively speaking, you have to look at yesterday's end-of-race as a farce. Masi held firm to his prior decision to make sure someone won it 'on the track'. and he bent the rules to do it. he essentially had the choice of scrapping the rules on backmarkers and all but letting Max win, or going back on his word for it to be 'won on the track', and letting Lewis win.

and he chose the former. that's fine. but let's call it what it is - Max winning a deserved championship over the course of a season, but in a ridiculous set of circumstances, where Mercedes, in this particular instance, can feel hard done by.

But Mercedes really should just move on now. it's one title, and it's been lost to a driver who deserved his day in the sun. Lewis seemed gracious, and willing to leave it be, so his bosses should too.

tigerboon · 13-12-2021 01:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314041#Comment_118314041

This is it exactly. Most don't have a problem with Verstappen winning. In fact he, or the team, didn't put a foot wrong yesterday. It's the way Hamilton was left a sitting duck at the restart that's the problem. Race control would have known this would be the case and went ahead with it anyway despite the rules being stretched.

You can say the rules allow this, but safety car rules are there for safety, not manufacturing a finish. Also, the teams were ok with restarting with the lapped cars in place. This would have given Verstappen a more than fair chance at the win, when you consider he was out paced all race and had already done well out of the safety car.

tobefrank321 · 13-12-2021 01:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314482#Comment_118314482

Standard Proceedure vs rules?

The race director has discretion to do as they want. That's the main rule. They can pull in the safety car when they decide, not when Toto Wolff decides.

You can't have it both ways. When the rules are applied, you can't say they weren't applied, just because you don't understand the rules.

As for Wolff wanting the race ended at 57 laps, laughable. Just shows he's not in F1 for the sport.

Captain_Crash · 13-12-2021 01:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314479#Comment_118314479

Just because it hasn’t happened before doesn’t mean it’s not allowed. It’s fairly clear that Masi was within his rights to make that call and he did!

flazio · 13-12-2021 01:19PM

Has anyone any comments on the other 8 teams that were also out on track?

SlickRic · 13-12-2021 01:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314547#Comment_118314547

this is the hilarious thing.

I still think Max wins in that set of circumstances. those backmarkers are all getting out of the way immediately, and at least in that scenario, Lewis has a chance of putting up more of a fight. but as you say, it was the 'sitting duck' nature of it that just didn't feel right.

SlickRic · 13-12-2021 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314553#Comment_118314553

of course he was.

but he did it for the spectacle - not for safety, not for fairness, and not to keep within the rules.

tobefrank321 · 13-12-2021 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314479#Comment_118314479

It wouldn't have been sporting though. Wouldn't be too fair to force Verstappen to have to negotiate 4 or 5 lapped cars on the final lap of the season.

Feels like some people would prefer to have the season and championship ended on a safety car.

If you want F1 to go back to a worse than watching paint dry procession which Mercedes always wins, then go for it.

And for the nth time its obvious for all the shouting about rules, very few people actually understand the rules or could be arsed to look them up. I seem to be one of the few who are bothered.

It doesn't matter if a rule is never applied, what matters is its a RULE.

And the two rules that Masi followed were, unlapped cars are allowed unlap under a safety car and secondly he can bring in the safety car anytime he wants.

End of story from a rules point of view.

quokula · 13-12-2021 01:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314482#Comment_118314482

Standard procedure is to let lapped cars pass, stop pretending it isn’t. The lesser of two evils was to follow standard procedure, rather than ignoring it in order to favour Mercedes. Due to having to deal with Toto’s lobbying they were delayed and this only allowed them to follow standard procedure for about 80% of lapped cars, but that’s certainly better than completely throwing away standard procedure for all of them.

Captain_Crash · 13-12-2021 01:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314577#Comment_118314577

I disagree, I mentioned in more detail what I think earlier in the thread but I think we was trying to just get a lap in before it ended and tired to find a middle ground between cars unlapping and the number of laps left. I can certainly understand your view tho

namloc1980 · 13-12-2021 01:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314553#Comment_118314553

He was certainly within his rights to do what he did but the regulations are not very clear and this is what happens with documents like these. When they are tested by real life scenarios they often come up short and are wide open to interpretation. Of course regulations can't cover off every single possible scenario either so you are often left with a grey area and personal interpretation. If this happened in Race 2 or 5 of the season then it would be no more than an interesting and somewhat controversial occurrence on yet another grand prix weekend. However it happened on the last lap of the last race with the 2 protagonists vying for the title so is hugely controversial.