Democracy is just an illusion

Harryd225

Equality, justice and the rule of law are nice and all, but money talks, it's no wonder two party systems rule in most of the main democracies like the USA, UK and up until recently Ireland, Dissatisfaction with two-party politics is at an all-time high, new Gallup polling shows over 70 percent of Americans saying more parties are needed and the two parties are not representing the majority of Americans, now if you can decipher that then that is more than enough proof that democracy is an illusion as without the massive wealth, power and influence you will have no way of mobilising the population to vote differently or change the system to bring in or create other parties to make the necessary changes the majority of people actually want, you will also have to deal with the main political parties and the many of the top 1% who have massive control and influence (like the tightly controlled media who the owners usually have very close links with the main parties and the system in general) will do everything in their power to discredit you if they feel you are a threat.

Things only changed in Ireland because a massive entity on this island (the IRA) decided to throw all it's power and influence into the world of politics.

In any given historical period, the ideas that people generally think are the best and most important ideas are usually the ideas of the people in charge. If you have a lot of money and own a lot of property, then you have the power to propagandise your worldview and you have incentive to avoid appearing as if you’re propagandising your worldview.

The ideas of the one per cent become the dominant ideas because the one per cent convinces the 99 per cent that its ideas are the only rational and universally valid ideas. Consider free-market capitalism. The idea says that growth provides prosperity to all, that government governs best when it governs least, so there’s no need to discuss the redistribution of wealth.

Now don't get me wrong, There are tons of people extremely angry at this, disgusted by the choice between Pepsi and Coke they are offered every four years and are then told that the people are in charge, but without massive power, wealth and influence there is nothing they can do about it and if they had the massive power and wealth necessary it's unlikely they would want to do anything about it either.

The point of the thread is that once you have such a high proportion of wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, then true democracy cannot exist and has never existed, in the USA the top 1% have on average 16 times the wealth as the bottom 50% and things aren't much different in the UK and Ireland.

Apiarist

Yes, you are right. But what can be done to fix the wealth inequality?

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278410#Comment_118278410

Quite simply a revolution would be needed, it doesn't have to be a violent one but a revolution would be needed.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278487#Comment_118278487

A revolution from your bed.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278515#Comment_118278515

Why the hostility?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278550#Comment_118278550

Because he's either one of the leeches profiting off the system or has lots of beer and no blue pills.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278487#Comment_118278487

Didn't we do that 100 years ago ?

How did that go ,? Revolutions are a great idea - except who wants to be ruled by a bunch of violent extremists ( although for some reason our crowd were conservatives how'd that happen ?)

dxhound2005

Why do people say "Now don't get me wrong"?

Markcheese

From a European point of view the most revolutionary thing that benefited the people was the end of world war 2 and the Marshall plan - social welfare - public health care - public housing -

But ironically , not for the US who arguably were the real winners of WW2 ,

Potatoeman

Most of the new parties are loonies or straight out liars. They seem to all fall into extremes. Lots of criticism but no ideas other than pie in the sky nonsense or plans with disastrous consequences.

Reattributed wealth sounds like a good idea until you realise it would end up in a few pockets again, look at any communist state.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278581#Comment_118278581

Is that the only alternative? Violent extremists? Yay, the duality!

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278581#Comment_118278581

I'm not advocating for anything, the point of the thread was that democracy is an illusion, which it is and no one has argued that it's not.

A couple of people got very bitter and angry but that's about it.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278605#Comment_118278605

I guess that's another great part of democracy (for the top 1% at least) people believe that there is literally no alternative.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278605#Comment_118278605

Maybe they are, I don't really know much about the new parties but that's kind of the point of the thread, the powerful have the ability to make you believe ''all'' the other parties are a bunch of idiotic loonies and the two parties in control are the only ones that aren't.

StupidLikeAFox

Well your basic premise is incorrect for Ireland for a start. When was the last time a single party had a majority in ireland, the 80s I guess? Since then fringe parties like Labour, Greens, PDs etc have all had influence in government, not to mention the whole host of independents.

Irelands political system allows minor parties like SD, PBP and SF a disproportionate level of exposure which allows them to build a profile. Sinn fein have benefitted a lot from this system and we're able to use this to build from a minor, fringe party to the major party they are today. They like to create this anti establishment narrative that everyone is trying to keep them down but if ireland was a genuine 2 party system they would have struggled to elect a couple of TDs, if any

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278630#Comment_118278630

Nobody got bitter or angry.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278705#Comment_118278705

I never said anything about one party being in control, that's not viable even to an idiotic electorate, I was talking about two party systems FF/FG, our two party system was extremely weak in comparison to the concrete systems in the UK and USA.

As I said SF were only able to come into politics because of a powerful entity on this island (IRA) that already had massive power and influence through waging a guerilla war and then decided to throw all their weight into politics, that is a very abnormal situation which resulted in the two party system nearly coming to an end in Ireland.

The system has been undoubtedly out to stop the rise of Sinn Féin they were even banned by RTÉ from appearing in the leaders debate in the last election.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278550#Comment_118278550

It's not hostility, no offence but these types of populist things where people march, carry badly drawn signs and shout all different kinds of slogans don't go anywhere. Remember the occupy movement, some muppet camped out in Eyre Square thinking he was changing the system.

Unfortunately democracy is like capitalism, it's the worse apart from all the rest.

dxhound2005

You need to take a longer view. Sinn Fein won nearly all the seats in the South in 1918. The Unionists won most of the seats in the North, in an all island election.

Sinn Fein split into FG and FF in the South, but the current SF are not happy with that. Democracy in action

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278785#Comment_118278785

I'm not saying it's going to go anywhere I was just saying that democracy is an illusion and cannot exist while the wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few, our votes might all be as valuable but our power to influence the votes are not.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278824#Comment_118278824

Exactly, and it took a revolution (1916) for Sinn Féin to be able to get the votes they got in 1918.

You are missing the point that if the Sinn Féin of today did not have the massive wealth, power and influence they inherited from the IRA they would have no chance of ''putting democracy into action'' democracy is a game which takes a lot of resources to win.

dxhound2005

It took partition to normalise politics.

quokula

There’s a big difference between the broken political systems in the UK and USA which force a two party system and the proper proportional representation we enjoy in Ireland.

People in Ireland have been able to choose whatever party they wanted, and we’ve mainly kept it to the two biggest parties because between them they dramatically improved the quality of life on the Ireland for the majority of the state’s first century of existence. People can and have been voting for other parties when they deem they can do a better job, and indeed many smaller parties have been in coalition government here.

Snickers Man

"it's no wonder two party systems rule in most of the main democracies like the USA, UK and up until recently Ireland,"

If your premise is that "most of the main democracies" can be accounted for by just mentioning the UK and the US, with Ireland thrown in there as a make weight then your premise is all wrong.

Most of the main democracies have SOME form of proportional electoral system that makes them accountable to a better degree than the idiotic binary systems that pertain in the "Anglosphere", or at least in part of it.

Yes: it is an axiom of politics as in life that the big guys usually win in the end. But then as the Good Book says, "The race is not always to the swift or the battle to the strong..." (to which the great Damon Runyon later added "Maybe not but that's the way to bet!") and when tired old clichés outlive their relevance they get dumped inevitably. Yes Ireland had a seeming duopoly between FF and FG for a long time but in truth, there were always options to vote for other parties and in several cases, coalitions were conceived with smaller parties (and not always the same smaller parties) forming a vital part of the government. Yes, most people voted for the Big Two but the shape of government was vitally affected by WHICH of the smaller parties it had to combine with to produce a winning coalition.

For example, the small radical republican Clann na Poblachta, containing such luminaries as Sean McBride and Noel Browne had a huge effect on the first Fine Gael led coalition after the war. Think only of the declaration of a republic, which even De Valera the great supposed republican never dared to do but a FG-led coalition did, largely I suspect because of the Clann na Poblachta influence. And of course, whatever else he did in a career characterized by self-importance, schism, and petulance, the eradication of TB stands as a monument to the efforts of Noel Browne.

In the 1970s FG had a coalition with Labour; in the 1990s FF went into power with the Progressive Democrats. Coalitions in Bipolar systems are much rarer. Sure, the Tories in UK were propped up in power in recent years by the DUP and earlier by the Lib Dems but they both proved disastrous fairly quickly to the junior partner in each case.

Proportional systems are more responsive to political currents in individual countries. If there is an issue that excites a section of the populace, they cann make their voices heard and take action to put the most apposite representatives into office. In the US, if you don't like Biden you can have.......Trump. And nobody else. What sort of screwed-up system is that?

Ours is much better.

And similar systems operate throughout Europe. Remember these are in countries which, for the most part, were tearing themselves apart by wary only 80 years ago. Since then, there has been peace.

Contrast that with the UK which endured effectively a civil war in one of its constituent countries (Northern Ireland) for the best part of half a century and is teetering dangerously on the precipice of a return to such strife because of the consequences of Brexit. The same half-assed decision has also reinvigorated the independence movement in Scotland which is likely to produce serious agitation in pursuit of that objective in the near future. Scotland may become independent but not without a lot of blood.

Proportional systems give voters at least the prospect of changing their government or at least the make up of their government at a granular level. First past the post systems can't do that. There you only get a choice between Tweedle Dumb or Tweedle Dumber. No wonder they often make the wrong decision.

So in a nutshell, Democracy can work and be responsive but you need to pick the system that can do that very carefully.

Harryd225

Every democracy is allowed to choose which party they want, them two political parties were involved in improving the quality of life they were not responsible for it.

The two political parties in charge have been ripping off the Irish people for 100 years, a former FF Taoiseach from the 90s amassed a fortune of at least 46 million just for himself by stealing from medical funds and all other sorts of illegal activity, the whole party were up to their necks in it and that's nothing compared to what both parties were up to in the 2000s and despite all this they are all still in power simply because democracy does not work, who is going to organise a movement to oust these corrupt parties and put other people in charge when everyone with the power/ability to do so are all closely linked to these parties.

The banks, the guards, the politicians they are all mutual friends who do favours for each other with the mutual goal of everyone retaining their positions of power, even apart from all that, now for example, we still have seen no prosecutions from the current investigations into the Anglo Irish Bank and the last Garda annual policing plan did not even mention white collar crime. The government needs to prioritise the fight against corruption and to resource and equip our law enforcement agencies to tackle it but why are the people in charge going to organise all that to tackle their own corruption.

Harryd225

Jhh

Ubbquittious

You vote in a pack of muppet to do what they want for 5 years. All election promises into the bin the day they walk into the Dail. Then they retire and get a cushy boardroom number with whatever megacorps they helped out the most. Or a lucrative career giving speeches even if they ran the country into the ground while they were in power.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279630#Comment_118279630

Spot on really.

dxhound2005

I think we can see who is bitter and angry now.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280302#Comment_118280302

Who?

Mehaffey1

https://youtu.be/PeihcfYft9w

dxhound2005

A couple of people got very bitter and angry but that's about it.

Andrewf20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278487#Comment_118278487

People are too docile to revolt. In an age of individualism, people tend to not rally together for a common cause. And revolution does not guarantee that what comes out the far side will be better than what has gone before.

Humans are corrupt with selfish interests often take a front row seat & I think that wont change. Tbh I think we have it very good generally. There's no better time or place to be alive that in the modern western world.

Adam Curtis's documentary "The trap" talks about some of this. Basically no one can be trusted even the people who revolt against corruption. They too have their own self interests at heart. Trailer here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=matkDgZ00sg

Ray Palmer

The USA is not a democracy as proven by the college electoral system. There system is way more messed up than here. Local towns and counties vote for very odd rules and are highly corrupt. There are Judges without law degrees who are elected. Very odd when you start looking at it. You can be driving a long at the road turns to muck and is because you just entered another town.

As for SF they were on local councils during the Celtic tiger years when devlopers paid the local council rather than social housing. The council were then meant to build housing with the money. Did they? No the squandered the money. If they are so into housing people why do they ignore the traveler housing fund money? They left an orgainsed crime structure behind when they disarmed and it is why we have the problems we have now. All those good SF politician and fighters how many have been found with illegal gains? Trusting them seems like madness to me

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285135#Comment_118285135

The US is a democracy. You misunderstand the Electoral college system, or you do understand and disagree with it, but it is a democracy.

The purpose of the EC system is to give all walks of life, albeit geographical a proportional voice. Otherwise, the US would be ruled by the wishes of the large urban centres, leaving the less populated rural areas without representation

Ireland has similar by means of the allocation of TDs per constituency.

If it were one man one vote, rural Ireland wouldn't have a voice.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278487#Comment_118278487

When the revolution is complete, what next?

Where can we look to throughout the entire world, where your communist ideal works on a daily basis. I'm not too thrilled with the idea of ploughing a new furrow, I'd like to see what I'm getting into before I sign on the dotted line

StupidLikeAFox

A revolution indeed. If you want to build a political movement we have a very transparent election every 5 years. Go ahead and knock yourself out.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285726#Comment_118285726

Missing the point of the thread here, there's a reason why the two party systems reign supreme in the UK, USA and until recently Ireland.

Because it takes a Massive amount of power, wealth and influence to even get a look in and the two parties in charge will use all of that to discredit.

Hence the point, while the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few then democracy cannot exist, the few have the power to influence the votes with all their money and friends in high place.

Sinn Féin only managed to get a look in because the IRA decided to throw all their power, wealth and influence into the world of politics.

They were even banned from the leaders debate on the last election.

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285899#Comment_118285899

Not exactly the spirit of a revolutionary leader

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278487#Comment_118278487

maybe whats needed is a consumers union.

olde style unions have more or less been defeated. but if workers could mass attack sales through organized boycotting then they'd have something to work with.

workers are consumers. if consumption choices could be mutually coordinated then the foundation of profits can be attacked. global supply often helps make alternatives available. (would work best with competing products)

if you can blacklist a company to hundreds of thousands of consumers that is a frightening prospect to management and shareholders. as ever though it has the weakness of needing solidarity.

if you could get enough pr and presence in society it could work though.

like if 100,000 members were signed up with the intention of punishing those companies who shaft workers, then thats real power.

dont know how you'd do it. but ultimately if a sales manager gets an email saying improve conditions or we have x thousands people promising to boycott your products as a listed campaign on our members site, you may well listen.

information tech would really facilitate that kind of thing. people could dip in, check a particular case, decide if they deserve to be boycotted, decide if its possible based on individual circumstance. see proof. see how many others are onboard. like a boycotty gofundme.

goboycottme.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286596#Comment_118286596

This is well intentioned but naive.

People already make those choices. They know their Nike is made by a 6 year old Vietnamese boy but they want their Nike more than they care about child labour

Consumers want to buy a pack of baby grows in Pennys for 4 euro made by people in work camps in China working for pittance.

You could have the same baby grows made in Ireland under better conditions but the customer won't pay 25 euro for the same thing.

Chicken or egg, but consumers are already responsible for the proce race to the bottom, companies are responding to competition in prices.

So asking to get 100,000 people to boycott company x is possible, but it will be people that wouldn't shop there in the first place

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285899#Comment_118285899

SF/IRA had some interesting income streams which has led to SF being the richest party around...e.g.bank robberies , donations from republican sympathisers in the US and bequests ( e.g.some geezer in Britain left £1.5 million a few years ago).

PHG

You talk about influence, maybe have a look at your "non influenced opinion" where parts of your opening post are copied and pasted directly from a Karl Marx article.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2012/3/13/what-if-democracy-is-just-an-illusion

Sure wouldn't Marxism, communism or pure socialism be better 🙄. These were all tried out and capitalism (which was the least likely to succeed) came out on top. Our capitalism is by no means the free market capitalism that Marx talked about, the same goes for Keynes capitalism views. In Europe it is a mix of Capitalism, Socialism and Corporatism. But everyone gets a vote and can decide who they vote for. To say the 1% control the 99% is absurd, there are plenty of old ones who would not budge in their vote no matter what the 1% said. Prime examples are, the old farmers who are staunch FF or FG, or look up North where it is either SF or DUP, the the SDLP seem to be slowly making ground with the younger parties. Personally I think the Soc Dems could have had a good go but messed it up completely with bad leadership about 10/12 years ago, same for Lib Dems in UK.

We in the west live in a democracy, the basic definition is The word democracy most often refers to a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting. Source is https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

If you think the 1% are governing everything that the politicians decide, you are mistaken. Does the 1% have influence, of course they do but nowhere near the extent you think.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286638#Comment_118286638

it can't be naive. i expressly wrote "as ever though it has the weakness of needing solidarity."

and there was no intention behind it. its a commentary on what could be done to the mechanism of present market forces which would constitute a modern non-violent revolution, albeit on a small scale.

Also your last paragraph is full of assumption. Why wouldn't a given target audience visit any one particular target business?

If I'm regularly buying a brand of pizza, and I'm signed up to help other workers (and by extension myself), and if I believe in our collectively boycotting businesses as a weapon, then I can just listen to the collective and buy the next brand of pizza.

A central authority gives the word 'these guys are being real a.ssholes' and now they're blacklisted to workers who have experience of being subject to a.sshole businesses.

It works for discount codes. Your favorite celebrity gives out a promo on his/her media, and the audience then visit that business, sales go up.

So it can work in reverse. An authority gives out information on who's treating their workers like dirt, and the audience then avoid that business when spending. Now a rep can contact that business with the stats on how many members are p1ssed enough to boycott them. And management can weigh which cost is higher, continued policy and lost sales (and brand value), or change of policy.

Some products would be more vulnerable, some less, naturally. High involvement purchases such as car brands may be more immune. Low involvement purchases such as snacks with many alternative products would be very vulnerable.

dxhound2005

To many if's in the proposition, and no plan how to make it work.

but if workers could mass attack sales through organized boycotting then they'd have something to work with.

workers are consumers. if consumption choices could be mutually coordinated then the foundation of profits can be attacked. global supply often helps make alternatives available. (would work best with competing products)

if you can blacklist a company to hundreds of thousands of consumers that is a frightening prospect to management and shareholders. as ever though it has the weakness of needing solidarity.

if you could get enough pr and presence in society it could work though.

like if 100,000 members were signed up with the intention of punishing those companies who shaft workers, then thats real power.

dont know how you'd do it.

One eyed Jack

Has it occurred to you OP that one of the possible reasons the 99% don’t revolt is that maybe they LIKE the misery? 🤔

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287050#Comment_118287050

Its not a plan.

OP was looking for solutions.

This is one.

The market system works a certain way. The customer is the ultimate authority until the transfer of money. The customer can also simultaneously be a worker.

The worker is directed by the people trying to impress the customer.

Boycotts are not what management wants. Customers are capable of boycotts. Im sure you can figure out the mechanism. Its not proposed as flawless. It is proposed as 1 solution. Lets see your solution.

dxhound2005

You are up against this sort of cynicism from post #33. I think they probably meant to write "taking a front row seat".

In an age of individualism, people tend to not rally together for a common cause. And revolution does not guarantee that what comes out the far side will be better than what has gone before.

Humans are corrupt with selfish interests often take a front row seat & I think that wont change.

85603

Humans act in their own interest.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287379#Comment_118287379

In order to have their own ideology in charge.

So after the glorious revolution, what happens?

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287422#Comment_118287422

what revolution?

and how would I know?