Unionists in Rep. of Ireland

Dickie10

In many sources like TV , doc and books I see there were a sizable minority of southern unionists in Ireland around 1912-1922. Is there much evidence of where these unionists went to in Irish society after 1923? are there still pockets of unionism in rep of ireland today? where were the hotspots of southern unionism in ireland in early 20th century? Could this minority not be used as a case study for people looking for a united ireland in future?

L1011

The 1918 election results show where they were - or some of them at least. Only one territorial-based constituency in what became the Free State elected a Unionist then- Dublin Rathmines with Maurice Dockrell. There were significant Unionist votes in Dublin Pembroke, Dublin County South, Donegal East, Monaghan North (where the SF MP/TD elected was Protestant as it happens). Some areas, e.g. bits of Cork that would have had sizeable Protestant populations that could have held some Unionist leanings had unopposed contests or a SF/IPP race with no Unionist candidate.

There were remaining sort-of Unionist (pro-treaty but not Nationalist) parties - Businessman's Party and Cork Progressive Association - in the 1920s with a handful of seats. Some Unionist politicians ended up in CnaG/FG - the aforementioned Dockrell family provided FG TDs for two further generations; the Cork Progressives took the CnaG whip and so on.

A lot just left, either to NI or GB.

Cosmo Kramer

Many in the border areas relocated, there were a lot of farm and property transactions between unionists in Leitrim, Cavan and Monaghan and Nationalists in Fermanagh and Tyrone at the time, for instance. Others will have just moved to the North or back to the UK, particularly up to the greater Belfast region which remains a strongly unionist area outside of the city itself. There were similar relocations within Northern Ireland also - the almost complete relocation of the unionist population of Derry city to the east of the Foyle over the last 100 years for instance.

However, what is probably less talked about is that many will have remained and their ancestors have been effectively assimilated over the generations since independence. This would be the case for many protestants in Dublin and Cork, for instance. They would be from a unionist/British heritage but the current generation would be as Irish as anyone else in the country.

Then there are the villages that fell on the wrong side of the border in a sense - places like Drum in County Monaghan, where Heather Humphreys is from - very much a Protestant/Presbyterian community but located in the Republic. Again, I know she considers herself to be an Irish nationalist Presbyterian whereas her grandparents would have been unionists, however there is still an orange order lodge in the village so I don't know if there would be differing views within the community there to this day.

Again, there would be similar but opposite areas within NI, particularly in overwhelmingly unionist areas in east Antrim and Down. In some of these areas the minority catholic community have been assimilated and would be mainly unionist today. The catholic unionist community in the north is one that rarely gets a mention, but I suppose Rory McIlroy would be a well known example.

Markcheese

I know there were a lot of unionists who left the country immediately after the war of independence/ civil war - did they get any assistance to leave ? Wether Irish government or uk government - I assume a unionist farming family would have had trouble selling up straight after the conflict, or would the land commission been buying land ?

Dickie10

i heard of Drum alright and theres a streak land in southern cavan from mountnugent to far side of kilnaleck that has strong protestant numbers however i dont know if there were/are also unionists. surely heather humphreys is a unionist still given her dad was in the orange order? would there be anything wrong with her being a unionist and in government, surely a great tool to use for a united ireland.?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276735#Comment_118276735

There was no official assistance to leave. But if you were a public servant and wished to be redeployed to a post in the UK, that would be done for you. Likewise people serving in the British army in what became the Free State were redeployed elsewhere; there might have been relocation grants associated with that but I doubt it. The Land Commission was not buying the farms of unionist farmers, but it was buying estates, without regard to the political views of the owners. Unionist landowners wishing to leave Ireland might have been more likely to take up that opportunity. There's no reason why a unionist who owned his own farm would have had any difficulty selling it in the open market, if that's what he wanted to do.

We have no hard figures on numbers who left after, or as a result of, the 1922 settlement. There was no census in Ireland between 1911 and 1926, and the demographic impact of the 1922 settlement would have been dwarfed by the demographic impact of the Great War, so it's hard to disentangle the two.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280504#Comment_118280504

Heather Humphrey's father's political opinions tell you nothing about hers; she's a grown woman.

If she were a Unionist, she would hardly be in Fine Gael whose English-language name is "United Ireland", and which is an avowedly nationalist party whose roots are in Sinn Féin.

As Cosmo has said, those in the Free State who had identified as unionists before 1922 and who didn't leave the country generally accepted the new reality within a short time. They either withdrew from political engagement or moved on to become found/participate in broadly conservative movements which accepted independence, adopted a right-of-centre position in domestic affairs, and sought to keep Ireland close to the UK in external affairs. That tradition was absorbed into Cummann na nGaedhal/Fine Gael within a generation or so. The children and grandchildren of those people adopt a conventional nationalist position and regard the UK as a neighbouring state with which we should strive to be on good terms. They would regard the unionism of their grandparents as a piece of political history comparable to the opposition to women's suffrage — no doubt strongly and sincerely felt at the time, but incomprehensible today.

Tl;dr: southern Unionism is dead.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280504#Comment_118280504

You are not bound to inherit your fathers (or mothers) politics. Says me where there's similar political leanings going back to 1890s Scotland on my male line (edit: actually it came from the father in law of one so not just male line); but anyway - Humphrey's father being OO does not even vaguely imply she has to be unionist.

snowstorm445

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058221359/unionists-in-rep-of-ireland

Outside of border areas, Malahide was supposed to have been a strongly Protestant/unionist town at least prior to independence and for a decade or two after. Same for Carnew in Co. Wicklow.

As others have mentioned though, the majority of people descended from southern unionists in this period would have gradually withdrawn from political life, and would have either emigrated or slowly assimilated into the broader population (politically speaking). I think many of them would still express their old family traditions through things like poppy-wearing etc, so there is some awareness of that background. Aside from Heather Humphreys, Neale Richmond also springs to mind.

The only outright southern unionist I can think of over the past few decades would have been Conor Cruise O'Brien (who was well-known for his contrarianism anyway). Wasn't there a Unionist candidate in a local election in West Cork at one stage not too long ago?

Peregrinus

CCO'B was a "southern unionist" in the sense that (a) he was from the Republic, not NI, and (b) he was a unionist with respect to NI - i.e. he advocated that NI should remain within the Union. But he wasn't a "southern unionist" in the sense of wishing the Republic to rejoin NI.

If CCO'B was a southern unionist then there might be a couple of other examples- i.e. people from the Republic who actively support the Union between GB and NI; Jim Kilfedder was born in Leitrim.

Nekarsulm

In my area of Co.Cavan probably half of Protestant farmers sold up and moved North to farm during the 1920's.

Half our family did anyway Bought land around Benburb and Bangor, where they still farm.

Some went further afield, Canada and New Zealand and South Africa were common.

Most of their farms were sold to other Protestants who were staying put.

There was some attempted intimidation in the early days of the State in our locality, but little actual physical altercation.

Some houses were ransacked, but by and large it was more noise and hot air/threats than action.

It was a nervous time for them, and most households would have had a shotgun, and sometimes a pistol ( either a small calibre "bulldog" or sometimes a Webley brought back from WW1. I've seen one or two of each type still in the original families ownership, but most were handed in during Dessie O'Malleys voluntary confiscation in the 1970s and still in the Garda armoury in the Phoenix Park)

The odd one still turns up during house renovations, having been hidden and forgotten.

Anyway, they became part of the new State, and while there was a kind of mentality to "keep your head down" none think of themselves as anything only Irish, nor would ever want Ireland to rejoin the UK.

Separate schools means that for generations neighbouring children were (are) kept apart most of the time, and certainly untill the mid 80's there were few occasions where they would mix untill they were old enough to drive.

Even then, socials/dances were run along religious grounds most weekends.

Very few protestant kids ever played GAA either, simply because matches were almost always on Sunday, which untill recently was fairly widely observed as a "day of rest".

I'd say 90%+ vote FG, as they (FG) were considered closest to having the same values, and laterly because FG didn't try and re-arm the IRA.

There would have been occurrences of "unrest" by times, with half-hearted or short lives boycotts of CofI businesses, but all that generally achieved was a polarisation of trade, with the boycotted business gaining customers who wouldn't normally have travelled so far to buy their goods.

Haven't personally heard of any such incidents since the 1950's however.

Anyway, that's the tuppenny version of the history of Protestants in Cavan/Monaghan/Longford etc.

Victor

The events of World War 1 meant that millions of people throughout Europe left and moved elsewhere. Ireland was no different, although there would have been nuances.

Of course, even the staunchly Unionist newspaper, the Irish Times, soon adjusted and got on with life.

"Outside of border areas, Malahide was supposed to have been a strongly Protestant/unionist town at least prior to independence and for a decade or two after." There were pockets, but Malahide was tiny village of 100-200 houses at the time.

BalcombeSt4

There's a lot famous Unionists who work in Dublin, David Norris, Jim Cusack, Kevin Myers (well used to) Cruise O'Brien. Arguably the famous Loyalist ever, Sir, Lord Carson, King of Ulster, Lord Protector of Dublin & Chief of the Ulster Volunteers. .

https://images.app.goo.gl/wA7FcJV5fm94VTAw5

Nekarsulm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280504#Comment_118280504

I think you are mixing up Unionist and Protestant.

There is no real correlation between the two, and to claim the Protestants in the Rep.Ireland are Unionists is laughably far from reality.

Heather Humphreys, who I've met a few times, is fairly typical I would think.

Irish, Protestant, and proud of both distinctions.

If she was a "Unionist" she would almost certainly have moved to NI and made a life there.

A fairly small percentage of Protestants in border counties are in the Orange Order, at a wild guess, perhaps 10%... , or should I say 10% of families would have a family member in the OO.

Some families it's a tradition, other families probably haven't had anyone a member since the 50's.

Most people I know in the OO consider themselves 100% Irish, and have zero intentions of ever leaving.

They don't look for re-union with the UK, although they might have a tendency to head to Enniskillen to ASDA for a "big shop" now and them.

Luttrell1975

Unionism is a political expression, not so much a religion and I think there were lots of Catholic Unionists just to mix that up a bit.

Unionism was never going to end up with a political party in the Republic, as it could never hope to hold sway. The interests that made up Irish unionism in the south broke away from direct politics and went into sport, cultural organisations, or assimilated themselves into political parties.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299043#Comment_118299043

Just to clarify. the Cruisers position on NI changed over time. In the 1950s he was involved in the Anti-Partition Campaign. It was mostly the emergence of the Provos which led him to sympathise with the NI Unionist point of view.

ejmaztec

I think that some of the Protestants who didn't leave the Free State had their own version of Unionism, in that they stuck together. The Musgrave family of SuperValu fame did consider leaving Cork as a result of the spate of killings that took place during the early 1920s, but then decided to stay put. I suppose there wouldn't have been any SuperValu or Centra franchises had they cleared off across the border, or further afield.

I don't think Musgraves had any non-protestant directors for quite a few decades. I spoke to a SuperValu franchisee thirty odd years ago, and he told me that, when he went to discuss the franchise set-up with them, he was asked what religion he was, because they couldn't guess because of his surname. It was Irish but could have been associated with Catholicism or Protestantism.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118655565#Comment_118655565

Conor Brady was the first non-Protestant editor of the Irish Times, appointed in 1986.

Peregrinus

A lot of businesses in Ireland had distinctive denominational characteristics until well into the 1960s, and in some cases, and to a certain extent, business of a particular denominational characteristic tended to serve a customer base with a similar characteristic.

When my father joined the staff of Guiness's in the 1940s, there were no Catholics above a certain level in the management grades. This remained the case for more than 20 years after he joined. Guinness employees tended to bank with the Royal Bank of Ireland, which had a bank on the premises at the brewery; my father duly opened his first bank account there, to the great surprise of his family who assumed that, as a Catholic of the lower middle classes, he would bank with the National Bank of Ireland, like everybody else. Etc, etc.

In fact, the consolidation of the Irish banking sector in the 1960s represented the end of this era. The Irish banks recognised that they could no longer afford to serve sections of the community in this way, if they were to be internationally competitive. Both the Bank of Ireland and AIB groups were deliberate mergers of banks with different social/denominational links, Guinness starting promoting to all levels people from much more diverse social and community backgrounds, etc, etc. But the process probably took a couple of decades to work through.

Kermit.de.frog

I think once the country had separated from the UK unionism just no longer makes any practical sense. What is unionism for at that point? Agitation to rejoin a union the country had just left?

As others have said people moved on regardless.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118666170#Comment_118666170

Well, some people literally moved on - as in, they went to Britain, because they would rather live in the UK than in the IFS. That wasn't a trivial amount of people. But they didn't form a distinctive community in Britain - they were very quickly absorbed into the mainstream British population.

Others moved on in the emotional sense - they accustomed themselves to the new reality and did not seek to resist or change it. Probably within about 10 years any distinctive post-unionist political movements in the IFS had disappeared, and most of their supporters (and some of their activists) eventually found their way to Cumman na nGaedhal.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118641370#Comment_118641370

Which is strange as it ended up being the more militant working class Loyalists like Gusty Spence, Hugh Smyth, Gary McMichael, David Ervine, etc who became more sympathetic to the Provo pov, which tells me class politics are still very important & is the key to smashing sectarianism.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299043#Comment_118299043

Oddly enough as a Democratic/Libertarian Socialist Republican, I'm not in theory against union with the UK, it's mainly their monarchy & Tories I'm against.