Should pitbulls be outlawed as a breed, or strict licensure introduced - in Ireland?

The default response to this is a short video of some pitbull gently playing with people like they're totally harmless.

Let's get it straight, mmmkay?

They're dogs that are genotyped for violence and aggression.

i.e. they were bred for this purpose, their genes express themselves and proteins thus synthesize themselves specifically to be aggressive and violent.

If you dispute this, then you obviously didn't adequately process the core concepts of your biology lessons.

......

In instances where they're seen to be docile etc., this means they were cultured or phenotyped, "trained" essentially to behave with improved social graces.

Another conventional argument is of course, "no such thing as bad dogs, just bad owners".

Again, not entirely true.

With dogs of such destructive pre-dispositions, it requires the utmost diligence to train them well and adequately (even then this is going to be far from reliable), and lets face it, even an owner with the best intentions may of course lack the actual competence to ensure this is the case.

And let's face it also - most people who keep these dogs, they do so for one reason only - to enhance their "bad boy" or "bad girl" image (and yes, it's not exclusively the former, there's plenty of the latter);

Thus ensuring they're trained to have the cordial nature of a Labradoodle is unlikely to be the outcome.

TheValeyard

'If you dispute this, then you obviously didn't adequately process the core concepts of your biology lessons'

That's a great way to encourage a discussion. Insult people before they even begin..

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234433#Comment_118234433

Especially when you consider that it is not a core concept of leaving cert biology which most people do not do.

mistress_gi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234452#Comment_118234452

Not to mention it's not actually true 🤣

I mean who cares about the nature vs nurture debate right? That's only been debated since psycology has been around...

Discodog

What a load of twaddle ! Pit Bulls were a very popular pet breed in America for generations both Presidents Roosevelt & Wilson had Pit Bulls. We should have restricted owners not restricted breeds. This Irish Veterinary study totally debunks & opposes any breed restrictions.

https://irishvetjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13620-017-0101-1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234433#Comment_118234433

It needs to be said.

Cause you're always going to get the type that want to advocate for this type of behavior (thus keeping such animals), reliably use the "my pitbull wouldn't hurt any of Gods creatures" crap.

And, oh looky - that's exactly what we have in the follow up posts.

As well as the other pre-empted response, "no bad dogs only bad owners" crap-ola.

....

**sigh**

Feelings of inadequacy and inferiority follow this breed of dog around.

xhomelezz

About everything in your post OP is wrong.

https://pawmettolifeline.org/myths-vs-fact-pitbulls/

Sonics2k

So from a purely biological and how the dog was bred over the years, the OP isn't wrong.

But, speaking as someone who's known dozens of these dogs and worked in dog charities for years now, most Pit bulls and Staffies are extremely docile, gentle and friendly dogs.

If anything, the most aggressive dogs I've met have been small dogs like Jack Russells, Pomeranians and Poodles.

Dogs by nature, even Pit bulls are typically very gentle and affectionate animals, that's why humans keep them. The problem with outlawing a breed or bringing in strict licences for a particular breed is that most people with dogs don't even have a dog licence, never mind a licence for one set type of dog.

Should pitbulls be outlawed as a breed, or strict licensure introduced - in Ireland?

No.

FintanMcluskey

Those stronger breeds like pitbulls are great when they stay docile.

However, if one flips, not many men would be strong enough to hold them off/hold them down, in a similar way one would easily do with a smaller lighter dog.

Don't for 1 second think anyone can predict a dogs behaviour. Total bullshit that just highlights a lack of knowledge or experience of dog handling.

Every dog is unpredictable. It just doesn't matter as much with a jack Russell.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234527#Comment_118234527

Mod note

If you cannot argue your point without insulting/dismissing the points of others then please don't post. The post quoted is only designed to get a rise from people.

JC01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234684#Comment_118234684

A. That’s irrelevant, that logic applies to any animal potentially stronger than a grown human, try pinning a grown lab to the ground and see how you get on.

B. I’m far better able to predict and read my dog’s behaviour than most people’s behaviour. They are absolutely not an unpredictable animal, most people just don’t know anything about what makes them behave how they do.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234927#Comment_118234927

A: Is the bite force of a lab comparable to a pitbull or the likes?

B: I struggle to belive you could predict your dogs behaviour around other dogs/humans.

Well.. someone’s not a dog person

cnocbui

Yes. It's a nice attempt to dodge the problem by saying control the owners, but apart from never being workable in practice, it's the same as the guns don't kill, people do BS. Guns are not banned, they are very useful and necessary and so we licence their use to those who are deemed to be responsible and have a need. No one has a 'need' to own a pitbull and they are not useful.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234927#Comment_118234927

I once visited someone with my 8 year old daghter. The lady had a small dog that was excitedly bouncing around and yapping at my daughter. The lady said to my daughter 'don't be frightened, she's just being frindly, she won't bite' and literally about 3 seconds later the dog the owner knew so well, bit my daughter enough she bled slightly. Had that lady owned a pitbull, I believe my daughter would be dead.

Shao Kahn

I know someone who was attacked by two pitbulls who were off their leash in a park.

Owner was not one of those wanna be tough guys, and was completely horrified by the damage his dogs did. They were playing with each other, and then when they saw this lad's dog they went straight for it unprovoked. Owner tried to intervene to save his dog, but they savaged him. Very lucky he got to hospital in time, as he lost huge amounts of blood from his arms and hands. Still has trouble with nerves in one of his hands years later.

I realize you can have responsible owners, but these dogs can have a mind of their own sometimes. This guy's dogs had been well behaved all of their life up until that moment. (according to him) But they're just too powerful, and can be very unpredictable. As all dogs can be sometimes.

I love dogs myself. But I would definitely outlaw the breeding of dangerous breeds. No need for them, there's plenty of great dog breeds that can make a fine family dog. We don't need dogs that have the potential to kill someone or leave them with lifelong injuries.

I think some people's opinions would change on these dangerous breeds, if they saw / experienced first hand the extreme damage they're capable of. The power and lack of ability to stop them when they're out of control.

I think we could start by large fines or jail for the owners of these dogs if gog not wearing muzzles outside their own property. Same for any other breed. That’s really the problem solved imo. So long as they are not a threat or danger to the general public.

sameoldname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234968#Comment_118234968

Interestingly, for a dog that is bred to have a "soft mouth" the Labrador has a bite force around 230psi, that's 5psi less than a Pitbull and only 8psi less than a German Shepard. It's also far higher than a Belgian Malinois (195psi) which are used as police and military dogs.

Source.

My friends young fella got a nasty bite from a Labrador.

Maybe we should outlaw them too OP?

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234968#Comment_118234968

A = Yes

John_Rambo

A Labrador was responsible for a death in Ireland, a lab cross for another death of a baby and two Presa Canario dogs responsible for the death of a grandmother.

Some of the American breeds coming in are incredibly powerful and heavily muscled. Most owners I see with them seem to be responsible enough, but I can envisage some deprived areas having a few owners that haven't a clue.

JupiterKid

These threads always end the same.

Posters coming rushing in to defend the Pit Bull, a very dangerous breed of dog that was specifically bred for wild animal baiting and dog fighting (sick, vile and criminal bloodsport).

That said, IMO the OP is just looking to goad reactions to his post - as opposed to a proper debate on the issue.

Then other posters will chime in and opine just how dangerous labradors, Jack Russells, poodles are etc. Totally predictable... 😏🙄

The power of denial of the facts is very strong on this one.

My OH and I were just watching a documentary on illegal dogfighting in the UK last night - and every single dog rescued by the police and SPCA were pit bulls, some in very bad shape and which had to be put down. 😔 😡 Every single one.

In an ideal world pit bulls would be bred out of existence. The world simply does not need them. In fact, there are many, many breeds of dog that are so extreme in terms of their inbreeding with deep seated congenital health and behavioral problems - that they would be better being bred out of existence.

Why people feel the need to own a potentially vicious and dangerous breed of dog as opposed to a more well rounded, congenial breed such a labradors or Yorkshire terriers etc. is beyond me.

xhomelezz

Good read up about this breed.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/pit-bull-ban-aggressive-dog-breed-bronwen-dickey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235758#Comment_118235758

Yep, because those dogs organise those fights themselves, don't ya know!

Full time in training, I believe the mammy dogs start the pups at 4 weeks old, just to toughen them up.

BanditLuke

No idea if they should be outlawed but some of the yokes iv'e seen own one should be. They seem to attract a scumbag type of owner as a pure status symbol type of dog. Why people least suited to looking after any type of animal never mind an animal that can kill a small man seem to want one is anyone's guess.

SuperBowserWorld

People can't have nice things.

They won't muzzle their dogs, they **** everywhere, several kids killed/badly damaged for life this year in UK/Ireland alone. Stray dogs, pounds full, .. Puppy farming. Dog fighting. Dog blooding with other animals. Eg pregnant cat ripped apart this year in cork.

Really. I think we haven't grown up as a society to look after dogs.

And just back from taking the dog for a walk. It's nuts. Think we've replaced kids with dogs.

Discodog

The facts are that they won't be outlawed & the existing restricted breed legislation will be revoked. The vast percentage of expertise is against breed specific legislation. It's consider old fashioned, ineffective & growing out of favour. You will struggle to find any expert opinion in favour of it.

Max H

Personally it really is down to the owners. I have owned 4 GSD's. At no time has anyone of those supposed vicious dogs bitten anyone or anything. That's because I don't let them run after other dogs, chase other dogs, and never ever leave them alone with children. Also I train my dog, every day. Yes every day. He is licenced insured and on a lead and muzzled when he has to be. Unfortunately a lot of people have a dog and just wander around with it, a recent example, I am walking my vicious GSD on a lead and muzzled and a Jack Russel runs up to him and starts attacking him. Owner comes wandering up and says, oh sorry I was on the phone. Now imagine if it had been the other way around. It's the owners not the dog.

piplip87

Should we also bring in restrictions on Collies as they bite more than any other dog in Ireland.

Dogs bite because owners do not know what they are getting into they get a dog. I am using Collies as an example because they are working dogs with a high need for mental stimulation along with excercise.

The same can be said for pitbulls, they need to be mentally stimulated and trained very well to get the aggression under control.

Unfortunately people get the wrong breed for their own circumstances. I had Alaskan Malamutes when I was in my teens again we had a big back yard which was secure with plenty of space and time for them.

Now I am in an estate and would love one but it would not be far as we don't have the space or time for a big dog. We do have a Japanese Spitz and a Pomski because we researched the breeds to make sure we could accommodate their needs before we adopted them.

If you are getting a dog please research the breeds and make sure you have enough time to give it attention and excercise

xhomelezz

^^ This.

Some people should realise dog or any pet is not a toy. Can't be fooked into the corner when not needed. They are living creatures, not things.

Investigative reports

Too much sentimentality about dogs, including violent dogs already. I can't fathom this in those people whose children get mauled by dogs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235177#Comment_118235177

I like this suggestion and it absolutely should be enforced.

In fact it's insane considering it, how it's NOT enforced.

I'll see if I can change the thread title actually to say, "should pitbulls be muzzled at all times?"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235758#Comment_118235758

Last sentence;

It's beyond you?

The people whom I've seen keep these dogs, RELIABLY want to create a persona of intimidation.

And to be honest this is more a hate thread against the type of people that keep pitbulls, vs the dogs themselves.

I despise their kind.

I think the muzzle-stipulation is awesome because:

1) if the owner neglects it we can report them and hit the billy-bad-ass with a huge fine

2) wearing a muzzle negates their entire purpose of having such a dog in the first place

Who stands to win? Civilized people

Who stands to lose? The trash that use these animals to overcompensate for their own inadequacies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235931#Comment_118235931

This.

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236442#Comment_118236442

You know even pitbull have to eat and drink..

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236391#Comment_118236391

Laughable post.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236391#Comment_118236391

Did someone in the pub tell you that parents are sentimental about dogs that maul their children?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236031#Comment_118236031

Sure, but if a jacl attacks me i probably won't be killed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236442#Comment_118236442

It is enforced.

Happy now OP?

Riddle101

Any dog can be vicious and violent depending on its upbringing, but you can't tar an entire dog breed just because it has a bad reputation in the media. A lot of hate placed on Pitbulls is misleading and misunderstood I think. It Doesn't matter what breed it is, if a dog is raised wrong it will grow to become a violent animal, but if raised and trained right by an owner who knows what their doing then it could be one of the gentlest animals you ever meet, but you really need to understand them first and understand the responsibility you take on when you own one. Labradors, Golden Retrievers, German Shepard, Rottweiler, and Doberman have all been known to be aggressive as well but you don't see people make cases for banning those breeds.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235432#Comment_118235432

'I can envisage some deprived areas having a few owners that haven't a clue.'

Sweet Jaysis, now it's just poor people that can't look after their dogs correctly🙄🙄

xhomelezz

Riddle101

Labradors, Golden Retrievers, German Shepard, Rottweiler, and Doberman have all been known to be aggressive.

Oh come on..

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236725#Comment_118236725

How many people in Ireland have been killed by pit bulls in the last 20 years?

You can't police people who buy certain breeds for image or whatever reasons. Look in any shelter or rescue and you'll see alot of bull breeds and even malamutes, huskies because some wanted the wolf look. They buy these breeds without understanding their needs, sled dogs need crazy amount of exercise to keep them happy for example. Its not fair to punish the breed of dog who relies on their owner to meet their needs and be responsible.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236803#Comment_118236803

Yeah, Good point, I can see where I erred there. But you know what I mean, these bull breeds are particularly popular in less well off areas where young men and male youths like to exude an image of toughness. A low slung, muscular dog helps this image and in my experience, male youths are barely able to look after themselves, let alone a dog.

In that saying I had a Staffordshire bull terrier that was left broken after an arranged dog fight. Took it to the vet, the vet called me a week later with the bill. The little dog had her last few years with me. And just like the OP predicted, she never harmed a person or another animal!!

JC01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235022#Comment_118235022

That lady shouldn’t own any dog full stop.

Banning a given breed isn’t going to make crap owners any better, all it does is punish responsible owners.

Also I don’t and never have owned a pit bull or similar breed, always had big dogs though. I just hate this poorly informed line that gets dragged out about pit bulls in particular. I’ve seen the damage a Labrador can do to a grown woman but it’s always the pit bulls/ staffys/ Rottweilers that get the blame for the owners failings.

JC01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234968#Comment_118234968

Absolutely. I’ve seen first hand the aftermath of a lab attacking a grown woman and it was horrific. The owner was an absolute moron of the highest order and could handle the dog at all but her daughter had wanted an “Andrex puppy”!!

Struggle away, he’s looking at me at the minute and I can’t remember him doing anything unexpected or off-que for his nature since he was about 4 months old and we were still getting to know each other then. Partners dogs are the same.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235255#Comment_118235255

This is the sort of dodgy logic that gets people into trouble in life. I have no idea whether the stats you've listed above are accurate. But it doesn't really matter either way.

Boiling things down to such raw naked data, and then drawing overall conclusions, is a dumb way to analyze something. The phrase "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" comes to mind in this regard.

Not that I particularly wish to get into a discussion about the fighting merits of different breeds (as I find blood sports repulsive), but to compare a Labrador and a Pitbull is more than a bit ridiculous. There are so many other factors and attributes that influence a given dog's ability to fight, other than merely the total psi of it's bite.

That's what makes something like a Pitbull so dangerous. The tenacity and aggression and everything else required to be good in a fight, are natural attributes. Bred into them for hundreds of years - initially for fighting wild boar and bear baiting, then later pit fighting. Whatever attributes they have, were given to them intentionally for very specific reasons. If someone thought they needed a stronger psi bite, then it would have been bred into them. But clearly total bite power was not the only factor that mattered in a fight.

They were bred to have a total combination of attributes - including a strong bite for their size. And it's this combination that makes them dangerous, not one attribute taken in isolation. It's like comparing two boxers with the same power punch, but the other guy has a whole list of additional attributes - aggression, tenacity, bravery, speed, stamina, agility etc etc. that make him a much more dangerous fighter.

So yeah, I don't care about the total bite force of a lab vs a pitpull. It is essentially meaningless when taken in isolation from every other attribute. Anyone who thinks a pitbull is no more dangerous than a labrador, is living in fantasy land. It's a serious level of delusion and naivety.

Like I said, most people have never seen what a pitbull is actually capable of first hand. And then you have many people in society who are naturally naive, or in some cases willfully naive, who have only ever seen a docile friendly example of a pitbull. So it is perhaps understandable that these people could be lulled into a false sense of security, thinking that their reputation is unwarranted. But it's really NOT.

You get the same knuckleheads who go into cages with grizzly bears and lions, roll around with them, and declare to the world: "they're not actually dangerous, they're just misunderstood". And a whole bunch of people watching on, naively and desperately wanting to believe in the illusion.

sameoldname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237857#Comment_118237857

1. Read the post I was responding to

2. Point out to me where I drew any conclusions beyond the bite force of various breeds of dog