What do people make of this overhanging [public] building?

techguy

Hi Guys,

I have an issue with the following building. Street view link.

The building in question is "Nenagh Arts Centre" and also locally as "The Town Hall". It is a public building built that was rebuilt back in 2010ish by the local council.

My issue with this is how the building hangs out over the public road. You can also see a small footpath that has been installed, at a guess, to protect the overhanging structure, since it could be low enough for a truck to hit it. The road is a straight run, except for the footpath, which turns that part of road into a chicane.

At the moment, there are no bollards/markings to alert road users of it's presence.

The context of my issue is that I drove up that road the other day. I did not see the kerb sticking out in my way and I proceeded to drive over the kerb puncturing both passenger side tyres and damaging the wheels. I plan on claiming compensation from the council.

Interested to hear peoples thoughts on this one.

Many thanks

This is how things currently look.

In July 2018 there was one hazard marker - note there be two present. See second photo showing the other one broken off.

ohnonotgmail

I think you will struggle with your claim. unless the accident happened at night.

techguy

Perhaps.

But you see, two signs were installed on day one. I would say that those signs were installed "so that nobody hits the kerb"..

If those signs were there, I would genuinely not have hit the kerb.

Needles73

No idea if a claim would be successful. However it’s a ridiculous enough arrangement with over hang and half arsed foot path. Easy know it’s a council owned building as no one else would get planning.

I’m normally in favour of sucking things up as I’ve damaged wheels on pot holes, cracked windows from road works etc. But I think I’d be making a claim if I was in your situation.

Billgirlylegs

It all hinges on how much sh1t you are prepared to endure. They will probably claim that you were driving without due care and attention. Agree with Needles73 comment re planning. Is there a shortage of space in Nenagh, or could the Architects not read a tape measure?

My suggestion is to make a quick decision, take action and then forget about it.

magicbastarder

i'd suggest that the overhanging building and you hitting the kerb are separate issues, so one does not necessarily inform the other. footpaths come and go and you're generally expected to be able to see them, the question would arise as to why you didn't see this one.

techguy

Thanks guys,

I see the point about footpath.

Ultimately the question that keeps coming into my head is. "Why were signs installed on the foothpath" I argue it was so people would be made aware that there was an obstacle to be kept to the right of.

I don't think it's totally clear from the photos, but the road is straight as a die, and this literally sticks out into the road.

They can say what they like, but if they (council) are going to install a footpath that protrudes out into the path of cars, they have a duty of care to make sure it's clearly indicated.. and "should have seen it" isn't a valid defence in my opinion.

Needles73

Is it actually a foot path. Is there an access to the buildings grounds there. Or would it really be more akin to a traffic island ?

magicbastarder

the issue probably boils down to whether those signs were placed there as a courtesy, or placed there as a requirement because some reg mandated they were as a result of the road design; if the latter, you may have more luck.

Paranoid Mandroid

Not helpful to you at all OP but that is desperate. I can't believe they left it like that and I'd imagine you're not the first person to have that happen to them.

muffler

Hard to tell from the pics but can 2 vehicles comfortably pass where the footpath is?

techguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220914#Comment_118220914

There is some access to the building there. While it is a footpath etc, It could possibly be called a traffic island because it protrudes out into the way of traffic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220921#Comment_118220921

Well, I would say that there is legislation that says you can't just install a footpath out on the road so that cars need to swerve to avoid it, without any warning or indication of it's presence. That is like road planning 101, I would say.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221014#Comment_118221014

I totally agree.. I mean I genuinely didn't see it. Had the signs been there like they were supposed to, then I would definitely have seen it and not hit it.

techguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221112#Comment_118221112

Hi

It's actually a one way street, so that isn't really an issue, I guess.

Stone Deaf 4evr

If that building is recent enough, you'll be able to look it up on the planning website to see what was put in place for it.

As a pundit on the internet though, I'm going to play devils advocate and say that you've not got a hope.

That sticking out path looks to be serving an access gate, as the driver of a vehicle, the onus is on you to pay attention to your surroundings. We wouldnt even be having this discussion if you'd hit a pedestrian who was coming out that gate at the time.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221167#Comment_118221167

That doesn't really help your case so.

muffler

One other question ... Are there any advance warning signs to indicate the road is narrowing?

cml387

Barrack room lawyer here. IMO the OP has a case in that there were warning signs present which were presumably knocked down and not replaced.

Therefore the council knew a hazard was there and failed in their duty to replace the warning signs once they were knocked down.

techguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221249#Comment_118221249

I hear you..

On hitting a pedestrian though.. I'm pretty sure a very similar conversation would be had if a pedestrian was hit. You see, there are standards to be upheld when it comes to buildings and roads.

The footpath is literally protruding out into the road. And to be frank considering the safety of pedestrians it's even a much bigger hazard. So the person who steps out thinks they are doing so, safely.. but imagine their shock when they realise that they are actually directly in front of oncoming traffic.. then imagine a person driving up the road being given no warning about any possibility of a pedestrian of footpath etc.. due to the warning signs being removed. Anyway, let's not go off topic here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221351#Comment_118221351

None at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221359#Comment_118221359

Couldn't agree more. My whole argument is based on the premise that the council constructed an inconspicuous obstacle the protrudes way out into the road.. then installed signs to alert drivers of it's presence... in case they hit it. Those signs are now gone. I argue the council is responsible for any issues arising due to their absence.

magicbastarder

I argue the council is responsible for any issues arising due to their absence.

in other words, you drove into a footpath but it wasn't your fault.

"I mean I genuinely didn't see it. Had the signs been there like they were supposed to, then I would definitely have seen it and not hit it."

this is cringeworthy. you're explicitly saying you need hazards in the road to be signposted for you.

sydthebeat

That's clearly NOT a foot path???

Totally agree with he lack of signage, but stop calling it a foot path. It's not connected to anything and it leads no where.

The council could easily argue its a traffic calming chicane, and if you hit it and punctured your tyres you were going too fast

magicbastarder

OK, sorry, it's not a footpath. whatever name you put on it, it's not invisible.

John_Rambo

Signs needed "don't crash in to the kerb and don't crash in to pedestrians"

Cool looking building though, nice ones further down the road too.

techguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224286#Comment_118224286

Er yea, pretty much. As cringeworthy as you think it is. Let's take the sign that should be there but was removed... remove every single one of them from the roads and see how many accidents there are.

And yes I am absolutely saying that hazards in the road need to be signposted for me in order to prevent accidents. I'm pretty sure most would agree that those types of signs are a good idea, even if you cringe at it. Because let's face it, at the end of the day we want to avoid accidents.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224310#Comment_118224310

It's not really a footpath in the traditional sense, but there is an access to the building there, where a person can step out. So I guess, had that footpath/landing pad not been in place and no signs. A person who steps out that doorway/entrance would be stepping out onto a road with oncoming traffic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224330#Comment_118224330

So here you are saying the "footpath" or whatever is not visible, i'm not sure if how you stand on this whole argument now. You are berating me for needing obstacles signposted.. but now you are admitting that it's not visible.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224347#Comment_118224347

But those signs do actually exist. Let's not loose the run of ourselves here. I'm not talking about my accidentally having swerved into a footpath that was parallel to my roadway. I'm talking about following a straight line, and hitting an unmarked/unsigned footpath (or whatever you call) that protruded into the road way.

The signs that out to be there to bring this interruption to flow of traffic are missing, and let's assume they were put there to alert drivers. Traffic calming or not.. a council can't just magic an obstacle to make you slow down. Considering there are humans exiting onto that footpath, that would make humans part of the traffic calming measure.

John_Rambo

To be honest, I think you're going to have to pay a bit more attention when you're driving. If you're unsure, stop driving, don't proceed and check out what's ahead of you.

Put it down to experience.

magicbastarder

You are berating me for needing obstacles signposted.. but now you are admitting that it's not visible.

i said it's not INvisible.

techguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226451#Comment_118226451

I see your point, but I think I am a decent enough driver. I've been driving all over London for the last 6 odd years. I think I am able to drive. If anything I have become accustomed to the roads not being like the wild west and getting used to a certain maintained standard of obstacles being as per road traffic regulations.

techguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226699#Comment_118226699

Oh haha, I guess I was reading what I wanted lol.

SC024

Should have went to scecsavers springs to mind :) 😉😎😉

Mellor

The overhand is pretty minor. Barely sticks over the boundary wall. If at all.

I don’t think the island is there to protect the building. It’s there because there is an entrance there. You can’t have people stepping out of a concealed entrance into the path of traffic.

You keep saying things like “it’s dangerous to have a footpath in the path of traffic”, or “road is straight”. I think that’s the issue. You don’t seem to make the connection the the road isn’t in fact straight and it bends here. Roads change direction, chicanes and traffic calming devices exist. Attentive driving means looking out for road chances.

I take your point that it could have been signposted better. And it could have been designed better from the get go. Maybe you might have a case I’d the council wanted damages from you. But the fact you left the road and drive over the kerb, it’s a hard sell that your not liable for your tyre damage.

dmigsy

I don't know about the legalities regarding planning or signage requirements but I'd be more concerned about your vision, awareness or attentiveness while driving if you hit that. There's double yellow lines around it. How did you not see it?

SC024

suck it up buttercup, not every mishap or boo boo is another persons / institutions / companies fault. take it on the chin, learn the lesson, pay more attention in future & get on with it :) maybe try specsavers on your next road trip ;-)

Paranoid Mandroid

Harsh comments there sco24, very patronizing. Do you work for the county council? Would you stand over that work?

ahusband

Sorry OP, but I'm going to have to say that I'd place the blame on you for this one.

Single lane one way street in a built up area with double yellow lines on both sides and a vehicular entrance immediately opposite to the curb you mounted.

1. Correct lane positioning in the center of the road would have seen you sail past the kerb with no need to swerve, you were a bit too far left.
2. Due care and attention with regard to the entrance on the right should have made you slow down and be prepared to stop anyway, at an appropriate speed you would have observed the obstacle.
3. in the photographs you posted, here and elsewhere of the aftermath it is clear that the sun is behind, therefore viability due to sun glare from ahead is not an issue.

The road was clear, it was sunny, dry, pretty much perfect conditions and there is no real excuse for not seeing or avoiding the edge of the road, the only way that happened was driving without due care and attention, **** as it might seem, you assumed the road was straight, didn't pay attention, the rest is history.

magicbastarder

to be fair, it's very possible he went back to photograph it a day or two after he hit it.

fair play to him for being able to find it again though with no signs as to where it was...

blackbox

I can understand how you might puncture one tyre if you didn't see it, but puncturing two suggests that you were driving too fast for that location.

SC024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118242831#Comment_118242831

Not intended to be in any way harsh or patronizing, just calling it as I see it. I don't work for the council I wouldn't stick there way of doing things but that's a whole other kettle of fish Me standing over it or not is irrelevant to be honest. If the above happened to me, I'd curse myself for not paying attention, learn the lesson & then move on. I don't see why the country has developed this culture of everything being someone else's fault. Not having a go there at anyone specifically but generally speaking this culture has prevailed.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226703#Comment_118226703

The fact you hit a stationary object and did the level of damage you did would suggest that you are not a decent enough driver.

It's a wide one way road , I've no idea why you'd drive so close to the left especially when there's a boundary wall.

Paying any attention to road markings you would see the double yellow lines moving out even if you didn't notice the kerb.

What's the speed limit on that road? I'd be surprised in a built up area if it's over 50km/h. I'd also be surprised if you could do that damage if driving under 50km/h.

I suspect you were driving too fast and not paying enough attention. You are now looking to blame anyone but yourself.

Furze99

Leaving aside the issue of the OP hitting the kerb... this looks like piss poor building design. Question: if this were a commercial or residential building, could they have possibly acquired planning permission for this construction? I very much doubt it. It's created a road hazard that higher sided vehicle could hit. And what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247642#Comment_118247642

There is plenty of room to allow a high sided vehicle to avoid the building. hitting the kerb is bad enough but hitting a building should result in a driving ban.

ahusband

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243358#Comment_118243358

Nah, he posted it elsewhere just after it happened, car is parked up on the right there with two flat tyres.

MacDanger

Here's my thoughts on it:

1. You absolutely should have noticed the kerbing and should have been far enough out from it not to hit it

2. It's a shite design from the council that the useless f*ckers wouldn't let anyone else away with, typical incompetence

3. The only way I'd see you maybe having a case would be if the planning documents stated that there should be hazard warning signage at that point which is now missing. I'm not sure how would you bring such a case and whether it would be worth it. Your best bet might be to simply notify them of the missing signage so that it gets replaced

Padre_Pio

I'd look for compensation. People have definitely hit it in the past, sure someone probably knocked the sign over.

If they complained and the council STILL did nothing, then you have a case.

Please report back. There should be some consequences for sh*te road planning.

ahusband

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248803#Comment_118248803

Should be consequences for not looking where you are going and driving into a stationary object.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248936#Comment_118248936

People hit potholes all the time, and they can cause serious damage.

The warning signs were put there for a reason, and their absence along with bad design caused the OP to hit the kerb.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248982#Comment_118248982

The thing is though a pothole can be very hard to notice as it's flush with the road. A kerb with double yellow lines around it shouldn't be that difficult to notice.

If you go back in the street view the road is actually very narrow. The entrance is more a lane than anything.

It then opens up with on street parking on either side so the road is still fairly narrow.

It then opens up to the wider road that the OP has photographed.

Personally if I was driving on that road I'd be hard-pressed to go above 30/40 km/h especially beside parked cars as there's always the fear someone will open the passenger door or a child stepping out. Etc.

I suspect the OP saw the road opening up and put their foot down as I can't see how you'd do the level of damage if speed wasn't involved. Especially to both wheels.

Whatever about getting compensation from hitting a pothole I can't see you getting compensation from hitting a kerb, especially one that has yellow hatching before it and double yellow lines around it.

It might be badly planned but you're supposed to drive at a speed you can recognize stationary objects at.

Gadgetman496

car is parked up on the right there with two flat tyres.

Is that the OP's vehicle illegally parked on the double yellow lines? Looks to be causing an obstruction for any other vehicle driving down that road forcing them to stay left and causing them to mount the curb as they try to avoid it. It also appears to be obstructing the view for anything trying to exit the gable end of the building on the right.

Just another observation, that's a very shady looking character on the road in the first photo 😉

ahusband

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248982#Comment_118248982

There are signs on slip roads off motorways to warn someone if they try to enter via the exit, still happens, claims like this are why coffee cups warn of the potential of hot contents.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247553#Comment_118247553

You want to see the damage I did to 2 wheels when I drove over a concrete median at ~20mph. Low speed for kerbs is walking pace anything above that and you'll do damage to tyres and possibly alloys if you've low profile tyres

magicbastarder

only time i've done any damage to a car tyre in that way was hitting a pothole sitting in a large puddle; well, it wasn't a pothole, it was roadworks where the workmen had backfilled their work with gravel or hardcore in preparation of coming back the next day, but the gravel had been washed away (it was a very stormy night).

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221359#Comment_118221359

The previous signs could have said anything. Perhaps they were a "Caution Children" sign or a "No parking" or "Clearway"?

The obligation is on the driver to pay care to their surroundings. If it was a pedestrian/animal or another car or a great big hole in the ground, that's on the driver to avoid.

bucketybuck

Don't all footpaths protrude into the road? Not sure I get that part.

I also don't understand how the OP didn't see that kerb, and how they damaged two tyres rather than just one? Did the incident take place on a rainy night? If it was on a clear day like in the photos then how can you not see it?

Maybe there is some legal loophole to do with signage that gets the OP the result he wants, but there are a few awkward questions there that he would want to be prepared to answer if he pursues this.