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Notice of Sale from LL after only having moved in (and spending money and time on improvements!)

  • 23-11-2021 7:02pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭ NeptunesMoon
    Registered User


    Got keys to my new place (shared house) not even 20 days ago, still don't have to be out of my old place until the end of the month so in that time I had been doing up my new room, filling in any damage in the wall, giving it a new coat of paint and the en-suite shower and toilet had a lot of mould so I cleaned that all back to the plaster, recoated and painted in anti mould paint, put up shelves in the shed, fixed some door handles and other doors in the communal parts of the house. The paint and materials alone were worth at least €250. I had taken time off work to get everything ready. We also all chipped in to get the carpets cleaned in the house. The landlady knew this work was going to be done.

    I had just moved the last of my things in last night. The lead tenant tells us all today that she got a text from the landlady this morning saying they are planning to put the property up for sale in late spring and we'll need to move out 😲

    Next door sold for over 700K recently so that probably influenced the decision.

    I put a lot of time and effort into improving the house and thought it would be a much longer term stay, I was in my previous place more than a decade. The LL also runs a playschool in a side building on the same property and with the money from that and rent, didn't think they'd be interested to sell at all. I really feel it's unfair to have put in so many hours of labour into the place only to be told we need to move out just when I've completed the finishing touches and am just beginning to settle in.

    I feel like I should bill her for the work! Just wanted to vent but be great to read any comments too! Cheers!



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Comments

  • Registered User


    Late spring is a while away, wont you enjoy the improvements til then at least?


    Frustrating and unfortunate for sure though.


    Edit- think in the circs youd at least chance asking for a bit of money off the rent for what youve spent, seems reasonable



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,003 ✭✭✭✭ Dav010
    Registered User


    Couple of questions.

    1. Did you sign a lease and has it started yet?
    2. Are all of you moving in, or are you taking a room with house mates who already live there?
    3. Why did you spend all that time and money on a rented property you haven’t moved into?


  • Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭ NeptunesMoon
    Registered User


    cheers for the replies!


    1) No I didn't sign anything, I took over from another friend who was moving out (I knew everyone in the house already and one guy had to move). His name was on the lease with the estate agent and my name replaced his name this month, but no signatures etc.

    2) They first moved in January 2020 so I'm just replacing one of the guys.

    3) I was in the process of moving in, I had already started paying rent. I was assuming it would be a long term thing and wanted the place to make the place look nice (and mould free), functional and comfortable and was happy to spend the money and time on that basis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,003 ✭✭✭✭ Dav010
    Registered User


    Ok. As things stand you have not received a notice of termination. A text means nothing, the LL needs to give you a written declaration of intention to sell and give you required notice based on when the original lease began. If her business is attached to the property, unless she is selling that as well or closing it, chances are she isn’t serious about selling. Having said that, it leaves you in an uncertain situation with no real entitlement to a refund on what you have spent as you seem to have voluntarily spent the money. If you and your housemates think she is serious about selling, you might be as well to consider staying where you are, or looking for another rental.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭ spaceHopper
    Registered User


    Child care, Covid and all the paper work the department of education and HSE put on managers of child care places, she's probably selling. Is she coming up on retirement?

    She hasn't given you proper notice as per the RTB rules so you can say nothing and push back when the time comes but it's **** thing to do



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,003 ✭✭✭✭ Dav010
    Registered User


    TBF, if the LL is selling, you could hardly blame her, property prices are high, renting is becoming less appealing for property owners, and as you quite rightly said, child care operators aren’t too happy at the moment. The LL would be ending a tenancy that has existed since jan 2020, it’s just unfortunate bad timing for the op.

    Post edited by Dav010 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭ NeptunesMoon
    Registered User


    Cheers again.

    I'm guessing there'd be no way she could keep the small building for the child care and sell the rest of the property. I've checked on eircode and both the house and the building for childcare are on the same eircode and there doesn't seem to be any difference on eircode at least. So I guess if she's selling, she's either moving the business, or selling it, or closing it. She's far away from retirement age.

    @spaceHopper I'm not sure what you mean push back when the time comes? Do you mean with regards to asking for money back for work put in?

    I can see the appeal to sell myself alright, but I'm guessing she knew before she knew we'd be doing the improvements and let me go ahead and spend all that time and money on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,052 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005
    Registered User


    The new tenancy laws which are coming in is most likely the reason she's selling. If she doesn't sell now it's highly unlikely she'll get anywhere near the same amount with the new laws.

    Unfortunately any money or time you spend on a rental is a waste.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭ spaceHopper
    Registered User


    No not money just that she hasn't give you any notice that anything is happening until it's done by the book. It's as if she never sent a text message.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭ Ray Palmer
    Registered User


    Unless the landlord agreed to it there is nothing you really can do or say. Your former friend sounds like they were quite lazy in maintaining basic issues. Mould is common in bathrooms when not cleaned even with proper ventilation. I have had tenant tighten a screw and act like they are somehow an excellent tenant because they do "maintenance". It's nice but also in the tenants best interest. I personally would pay for any materials once a receipt is provided but I hate when they decide to "paint" without saying a word and then look for payment when I then have to repaint because they did such a bad job.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik
    Registered User


    Reminds me of my cousin. I was in her house one day and she was moaning about the council not fixing the mould in her bathroom.

    She brought me into the bathroom to show me how bad it was. I got a cloth with bleach and I wiped it off in about 30 seconds. I told her that our house gets mouly in the corners of the bedrooms and the bathrooms too and as soon as we see it we wipe it off with bleach or mould remover and dont leave it there. I said its normal in houses in Ireland. Just wipe it every few weeks, job done. Then she said well its the councils house, they cant be expecting me to clean off their mould.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭ MacDanger
    Registered User


    There's nothing you can do with regards the improvements you've made, just enjoy them while you're there.

    If the LL hasn't given you a valid notice for termination however, do nothing. No need to let her know that she hasn't served a valid notice. It'll probably allow you stay in the property for another ~4 months or so while you look for somewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭ NeptunesMoon
    Registered User


    @Del2005 what are the new tenancy laws coming in and why do you think they would effect her willingness to continue renting, or the value of the property? I had read on another thread that new legislation was in place to help landlords with non paying tenants or something?

    @Ray Palmer the LL agreed to me doing work. I actually offered to fit a wooden floor for her in the room if she paid for materials as I don't like carpet. She said no to that and then I said if I supply materials would she let me and she said no to that, but that I could feel free to paint the room. I questioned whether she was happy to pay for materials for that or to have the carpets cleaned and she said no. So I covered these costs myself thinking it's going to be my home and would be worth the investment for me. I agree that the previous tenant could have done more to prevent or deal with the mould. The only real way of preventing it in the first place is to keep constant air circulation and I'd generally always leave the bathroom window ajar and run a dehumidifier during and after a shower and any time there's clothes drying, but to deal with it properly, I felt it was best to sand back to plaster and coat the whole room in anti mould paint which I did. The paint jobs I did in both rooms were done to a very high level.

    @MacDanger thanks, we'll probably get the valid notice soon I guess, but nice to know nothing can be acted on until we do get it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik
    Registered User


    I reckon she was happy enough to rent until the latest legislation was announced a couple of weeks ago and that tipped her decision to sell.

    Unfortunately op i think you wont be the only one getting their notice in the next few weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 905 ✭✭✭ rightmove
    Registered User


    yep its timed that way. What is needed is renters on the street demanding that LL have more protections. It has come to the stage we need the turkeys voting for christmas... which wont happen



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,627 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327
    Registered User


    This is exactly why you dont spend money doing up a property if you are renting. It's not yours!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer
    Registered User


    You have to be served with a notice of termination accompanied by a statutory declaration. You can raise a dispute about technical defects in the notice or declaration and the tenancy continues during the dispute. You say the lease started but were any of the occupants there before that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭ NeptunesMoon
    Registered User


    So what exactly is in the new legislation that might be scaring landlords to sell up?


    Elm327, it may not be my property, but I was planning on it being my home and I was prepared to put money into the fact, but not had I known it was just going to be a stop gap, which I wouldn't have even wanted to move into in the first place only to have to move again in a few months.


    @Claw Hammer, my friends have been in the property since Jan 2020, that's when the lease started. One moved out and I replaced him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik
    Registered User


    I was just looking this morning at a list of all the legislation changes in the last few years. Honestly I dont see how a landlord could keep up with them. Each one making their job harder and harder. And with promises of more to come soon too. Im surprised there are any landlords left at all at this point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭ redarmyblues
    Registered User


    When a rental is being sold the estate agent handling the sale will normally issue the notice to quit in the required form. If the OP and fellow tenants handle the matter correctly they should be able to claw back some rent by being co-operative with viewings etc. My daughter is in a high value, low yield shared let in D4 close to the sea and they are afraid of their lives to contact the letting agent about issues in the house, the carpets need changing and it needs redecoration and the (standard) lease precludes them from doing anything themselves. She reckons if the LL decides to cash in and the LL is incentivised by RPZ regulations to do just that, they will end up living closer to Mullingar than Sandymount with their current rent budget.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭ mrslancaster
    Registered User


    Debates this week about the new rental legislation:

    * disability renovations and increased BER during any retrofitting works. These works could not be classified as substantial change.

    * rent for new tenancies should set rent with the formula RB_room x (1 + 0.02) and the RB_room would be the median rent for the County Council area where the dwelling is located, for a dwelling with the number of bedrooms, according to the most recent RTB quarterly rent price data.

    * that the minister will get an annual report about landlords where rent increases were deemed to be an offence, all fines issued to landlords for those, and any other measures to pursue landlords guilty of incorrect rent increases.

    * termination notices under S34 should be subject to a variable notice period determined by the duration of the tenancy. For a tenancy over 2 years, any additional years would increase the relevant notice period by 30 days to be known as a Long Tenure notice period.

    It looks like landlords could face even longer notice periods and extra costs with little ability to recoup those costs - that seems to be what's scaring them all into selling up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭ kirving
    Registered User


    The flip side of this, is that I'm aware that my expectations are higher than what I can reasonably expect my landlord to provide. So I'm happy to make up that gap if needs be.

    I currently rent two places, one owner occupied and the other by a company.

    For the owner occupied place, my rent is reasonable, so I'll do any and all maintenance work that I would otherwise do in my family home to keep the place as nice as possible.

    With the letting agent, there's obviously more bureaucracy involved, and I'm reluctant to try and repair anything which I might break in the process. But I'll powerwash the garden as needed, I mounted the TV to the wall, built and permanently mounted lots of shelves, did a lot of gardening and fix any small bits that I can rather than waste time and money calling an electrician or plumber.

    Obviously can't expect to get paid for any of that, but I'm happy to do it because it improves my quality of life big time.

    I'd like to think too that when they company look at their books at the end of the year and see my place didn't cost them too much on maintenance, they decide to keep the place as a rental rather than selling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ houseyhouse
    Registered User


    Under this plan there would be no incentive for landlords to improve the quality of their properties, either by increasing the BER or decorating or doing anything else. In fact there’d be no reason to let high quality properties at all if the rent can’t reflect the quality.

    I let out a 2 bed apartment and while it is charming (used to be my home so I’m biased!), it’s also old and very small for a 2 bed. Why should it make the same rental income as a big new 2-bed in the area that has a high BER, walk-in wardrobe, en suites etc.? It doesn’t make any sense. Do the politicians really not know that supply is the main issue? Or do they not believe this will impact supply?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik
    Registered User


    Jesus, didnt even hear about those.

    They are just the latest plan. Seems to get worse for landlords every month.

    So glad I never bought a rental a few years ago after I researched it. I'll be surprised if there are any non council or reit rentals left at all in a year or two.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik
    Registered User



    I have a friend who a couple of years ago moved from a 1 bed apartment to another across the road because his landlord was selling.

    The one he was moving from was fantastic. It even had air con. It was 65sq m and had a great from the large balcony.

    The living room was 14ft x 16ft, so not a bad size at all. The kitchen was a nice size and was modern with full size fridge freezer, induction hob and an oven.

    The apartment he moved into was tiny. I doubt it was even 40sqm. The living room fitted a couch length ways and you were sitting on top of the tv. It was no more than 10ft x 10ft. No balcony and a view of the main road outside from the bedroom and living room. The kitchen wouldnt have fitted 1 person standing sideways and the fridge was an undercounter one with a tiny icebox.

    And here is the kicker.

    The rent for the old nice apartment that he moved out of was €970pm.

    The rent for the new dingy place was €1350pm.

    And thats why his landlord was selling up and my friend had to move out. He did offer him an extra €400pm month to stay, but his landlord said no, that if he did that he would probably end up with a fine for far more than that down the line. Said he was just tired of the whole thing and wanted out so was selling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭ NeptunesMoon
    Registered User


    Cheers for the continued replies! Interesting to read and yeah it seems kinda bitter sweet that there are more laws coming in to help tenants but at the same time it's going to push landlords to sell and kick tenants out. I guess at the same time this would mean there'd be more properties to buy on the market, which might be a good thing, but only if they stopped allowing investment funds to buy them up?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik
    Registered User


    Looks to me that that is where its headed.

    Investment funds are just going to buy up all the rentals that come on the market. All the good ones anyway.

    They will then find a way to increase the rent.

    There will come a point soon enough where the REITs start to get taxed properly. They will need to increase their rents again to recoup this tax. Vicious circle all began with rent control. And there are so many examples of it from around the world, that the government have always known where it would lead. Never in history has rent control not succeeded in fcuking up the rental market for everyone. And yet they went ahead and did it. And keep doing it. I dont know which is worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer
    Registered User


    You say the lease started in Jan 20 but what I was wondering had any of them been there before that on a different lease?



  • Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭ NeptunesMoon
    Registered User


    No, they took the place together Jan 20, none of them lived there before this date. Why would it have made a difference? Maybe to the notice period only had they been there much longer, but I see if a tenancy is less than 6 months, the notice period is only 28 days, so somebody can move in somewhere one day and be asked to leave 29 days later I guess. Given that I didn't sign anything myself, I guess there's no way a new name on a year long lease, automatically extends that lease by a year, no?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭ mrslancaster
    Registered User



    If you're replacing a tenant who is RTB registered then the landlord should amend the tenancy details, ie add your name and remove the person who left and you would get full tenants rights after six months occupancy. The existing tenancy agreement continues and the same notice period would apply to everyone on that tenancy agreement who is there longer than six months.

    Did your landlord agree to you replacing the previous person and add you to the RTB register or did you all work it out between yourselves?



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