TFI Fare Revisions from 28th November 2022 Including New 90 Minute Fare.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118175824#Comment_118175824

Sure the dwell time decrease will be worth it. Buses will be zooming around on time🙂

I read the press release/information in the OP on the DB website and gave up. It needs examples and associated cost, old v new, maybe a map of fare 'zones', rather than the block of text. Perhaps the sneaky price increase would be exposed though...

Peregrine

To determine where short fares would apply, Dublin has been divided into a lattice of contiguous zones (hexagonal in shape) approximately 1km in diameter. Within each zone, all origin and destination stops on bus, Luas and rail are assigned a zonal reference. Short fare journeys are then defined as those traversing three or less hexagons in a straight line in any direction.

ohnonotgmail

now that 4-13 and 13+ stage fares are combined does that mean that bus users can now tag on using the right hand validator?

Stevek101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118179274#Comment_118179274

Correct so it should speed things up. Unless the validator is slower with this 90 minute lark.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177819#Comment_118177819

They need to be replaced anyway. So when are they going to be replaced?

LXFlyer

When the next generation ticketing system is implemented.

ETA on that (per Anne Graham at the Oireachtas Transport Committee on 4 November) is two to three years away per the link below.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_and_communications/2021-11-03/2/#

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118179221#Comment_118179221

Thanks, it was extremely unclear from the document I had at hand as to how exactly the fare would be established - whether by the road or as a straight line.

I used the example of the H3 and 6 on the previous page, but this could honestly have a hilarious result of a route going to a higher fare for a number of stops before returning to a lower fare again because the route "loops back" into a <3km distance from the same stop.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118180305#Comment_118180305

They've been talking about new validators since the launch of Leap ...and yet they wonder why they're accused of being slow on progressing things. This isn't even a big project in the scheme of things.

Peregrine

It's not just about the validators though. They're switching to account based ticketing too. They have to set all that up first. They started very very late and it's taking and age. The winning bid won't be selected until late 2022 and then it probably will take over a year to set up the back-end. An interim measure of using phones as Leap cards is being looked at but that won't speed up much other than maybe converting more people to Leap.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118180454#Comment_118180454

It'll be interesting alright. I have no idea how it's going to work in practice. How would drivers know the distances?

"How many hexagons is it to O'Connell Street, bud?"

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118180850#Comment_118180850

The TGX150 machines have a mode of displaying every destination stage as opposed to the simplified three fares used by DB all the time (in fact, some GAI drivers prefer to have the full list even on the city routes, I assume to help them with learning the routes better, and of course BE use it as the only mode), so I wouldn't be surprised if on some routes drivers would switch to the "all destinations" mode.

Other than that, I had read that new fare charts would be prepared for every route anyway, or at least for the BC routes and any old routes that have much in common with new routes. It'd be best if these fare charts were made public, as cumbersome as I expect them to be with the amount of stops on every route...

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118180905#Comment_118180905

Well given that GAI fares are like the third secret of Fatima (unless you have the old DB stages) I’m not holding my breath on the NTA making that info public!

Incidentally, for some bizarre reason the 175 eastbound stages and westbound stages don’t match up (if the journey planner is to be believed) resulting in some journeys being cheaper in one direction than the other.

billyhead

Sorry if it's a stupid question but if the trip is more than 90 minutes but you tagged on various modes of transport i.e Luas, train than bus within 90 minutes does that come under this new standard fare.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118181770#Comment_118181770

Anything you tagged onto up to the 90 minute mark (from the first instance of tagging on) will fall under the same fare - If you then tag on to another service after the 90 minute mark, it will be a new charge.

Basically, the "timer" isn't reset after each time you tag on.

bk

"How many hexagons is it to O'Connell Street, bud?"

LOL, it does sound way over-complicated!

Seriously, tag-on, tag-off, pay per km travelled, not rocket science.

I believe all the double door buses are already pre-wired for a second validator at the rear door, which would be the most difficult part. So you would just be talkng about buying 1,000 extra validators, a drop in the ocean in the context of a project like Busconnects. You wouldn't even need new ticket machines. The validators are newer anyway and just communicate with the drivers ticket machine.

Sure there are some single door buses, just tag-off on the way out. Not as nice as dual door buses, but I'd bet it would still be quicker then having half the passengers asking the driver for a short fare anyway, specially once you dump cash.

This all seems like such a missed opportunity.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118182336#Comment_118182336

You're going to need new ticket machines really with another validator, as it is now when someone is using the right hand validator it makes the wayfarer go even slower when the driver is using it, or the validator can be slower if you happen to just tag on at the same time that a driver is processing a transaction on a Leap Card. If you add another validator in which is going to be dependent on the ticket machine things are going to get slower soon.

Imagine the issues when at a busy stop a load of people are getting on and off and the lag on the validators is going to actually add to dwell time rather than reduce it because of the lag that's going to happen. You're not going to see tap on and beep straight away and get off, you're likely to see a few seconds lag I would imagine. if one person tried to tag on with one validator at the same time as someone else tried to tag on, I can imagine one of those people will have a noticeable lag.

Then you've got the issue of where you can log the relevant data since the Wayfarer isn't going to have the capacity to store all the tag on and offs with it's very little amount of memory. The whole backend systems and ticketing machine equipment has for too long had sticking plaster type solutions to it, to make it do more and more and more to avoid having to bite the inevitable bullet. Trying to throw more validators slaving off already struggling and slow equipment would just be yet another reason to push the replacing of it a few more years down the line.

The whole system needs ripping out and replaced with modern and up to date equipment and a modern backend rather than a sticking plaster solution to push more and more out of life expired equipment and systems. Certainly it's not happening as quick as I would like, but that is not going to be a quick job to be honest and will be a large and complicated project. But they really should be further along the road than they are right now.

bk

Then rip out the old ticket machines and replace them, it is a decade overdue.

It really wouldn't be that complicated or even that expensive for a thousand new machines in the context of a 2bn project.

Changing how you do fares is something you only change every few decades. We really need to get it right now and it would be mad to feck it up for another 10+ years just because you couldn't be bothered replacing ancient ticket machines.

Peregrine

The difference between €2.50 and €2.30 is only €14m in additional funding per annum. This was always going to require additional exchequer funding. By trying to raise the fare to €2.50, they're trying to get away with only committing a €5.8m increase in funding and getting the short and medium journey passengers to subsidise the transferring passengers.

Ignore the €1.55 thing here. Must be an old table. This is two weeks of Leap data from six bus routes in Dublin. It doesn't look like it includes tickets loaded onto Leap.

Based on that, I calculated these for the current system:

And the new system:

In the new system, a third of all Leap fares will be short fares and will require driver interaction. This is much higher than I expected but it's much lower than the current system which requires 79% of Leap passengers to interact with the driver. Plus some of the 13+ stages passengers would have interacted with the driver. And obviously all the cash passengers.

Fizzy Duck

It would have been much better if there were a €2 flat fare for leap and €3 cash. It's been a pain the past few weeks at the Airport as the ticket machines are either empty or off. So passengers have to go into the Airport to get change, which is impossible at certain hours.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118183677#Comment_118183677

Single flat fare vs transfer and short fare

But then the people on the short hops would (rightfully) be seriously unhappy by a pretty hefty hike. The trouble with fare simplification and amalgamation to a totally single flat fare is that whilst some people see their fares go down, others are going to have to see theirs go up unless there are vastly increased amounts of government funding, over and beyond the large amount they've given during COVID-19 which lets face it, won't be happening .

Ticket Machines at Dublin Airport

On the subject of ticket machines at the airport, I have to say that the photo of that machine shows a machine that looks a little unloved to be honest. It's not exactly in a hugely presentable state.

Promotional Fare

On the subject of the promotional period for the 90 minute fare, I believe that originally this was due to run until the end of January originally and it was only shortly before the decisions were published that the decision was made to extend it to the end of March. I believe even some literature was printed with the January date on!

We can hope that if the roll out of this goes well, that the political pressure may be there to get the extra funding given to the NTA to make it permanent and it will not rise to €2.50. Maybe that might be the plan all along and this is just about getting leverage over those who hold the purse strings.

Fizzy Duck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118183703#Comment_118183703

That is true. I do agree that TFI 90 will probably be more useful. Though it's not gonna help when tourists keep presenting with €20 and €50 notes.

The machines were maintained for a while but the past 2 months they seem to be empty.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118183703#Comment_118183703

But then the people on the short hops would (rightfully) be seriously unhappy by a pretty hefty hike. The trouble with fare simplification and amalgamation to a totally single flat fare is that whilst some people see their fares go down, others are going to have to see theirs go up unless there are vastly increased amounts of government funding, over and beyond the large amount they've given during COVID-19 which lets face it, won't be happening .

going by the figures somebody posted above it would effect a quarter of passengers. this latest change is a fare increase for half of all passengers. how is that better?

Hotblack Desiato

I don't care about the short fare passengers tbh

They are taking up seats and increasing dwell time when they can use other options like walking or cycling much more easily than those with long journeys.

Priority should be getting people out of their cars and that means a faster service - with a seat - on the medium and long trips.

One-third of Leap card holders still interacting with the driver after restructuring the fares is mad tbh, as is still accepting cash.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118185026#Comment_118185026

What a narrow minded attitude.

I don’t think that it is for you to decide who should and should not use the bus service - it’s there for everyone.

Many people (including myself) use the bus for short journeys, for example coming home from doing a weekly food shop and where walking/cycling isn’t a realistic option.

I live at one end of a long steep hill and the bus is essential - I don’t drive. The shops are almost 3km away and I certainly don’t see why I should have to pay more than the lowest fare for that trip home.

Similarly are you suggesting everyone going to Heuston Station with suitcases from the city centre should walk or cycle?

There are all sorts of reasons why people use the bus for short trips. Many of those people may also be doing it instead of driving.

The bus service is there for everyone, not just people going from one end of the route to the other.

Gael23

My typical LUAS journey will cost 6 cents more for a round trip

bk

"Single flat fare vs transfer and short fare

But then the people on the short hops would (rightfully) be seriously unhappy by a pretty hefty hike. The trouble with fare simplification and amalgamation to a totally single flat fare is that whilst some people see their fares go down, others are going to have to see theirs go up unless there are vastly increased amounts of government funding, over and beyond the large amount they've given during COVID-19 which lets face it, won't be happening ."

I think you are missing an important point here. You talk of them needing to increase the subsidy to make a cheaper fares work, but there is a real danger that they will have to do that regardless and perhaps even worse.

The danger is that they set the fare too high and it discourages people from using public transport and the passenger numbers fall, which results in the fare revenues dropping, which they would need to make up with increased subsidies anyway given the new contracts.

Only worse now as you have driven people away from public transport and back into cars and it will be much harder to win them back!

How much money will they waste on advertising to try and win these people back!

Passenger numbers still haven't recovered to pre-covid levels. They need to do everything possible to attract people back onto public transport. Frankly increasing the fares by so much for the majority of passengers, for no benefit for them, at this time, is insane.

This decision could have real, long term, damaging impact on the attractiveness of public transport.

Hotblack Desiato

@lxflyer you're unlikely to be doing your weekly food shop during peak commuter hours though are you? Maybe what's really needed is a peak time minimum fare. But yeah I find the complaining about the short fare going up to be a bit much. A flat fare structure would have a lot of benefits.

Hotblack Desiato

If the majority of fares really are short fares then overriding must be absolutely rampant

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186567#Comment_118186567

Actually, I would generally make that particular journey between 5pm and 7pm on a weekday.

But that was but one example, but there are plenty of valid reasons why people may make short journeys by bus right across the network. People use the bus to get between lots of other places other than the city centre, short and long trips, and for all sorts of reasons, given the dominant role that the bus plays in Dublin’s transport.

Just because you don’t make short journeys, doesn’t mean you have the right to tell other people that they should be paying a significantly higher fare because you’re they are allegedly delaying you.

It is the most ridiculous argument that I’ve heard in ages frankly.

As I said, the bus service is there to serve everyone.

Minimum fares used to apply on longer distance routes at peak periods to protect people who had no other alternatives. They still apply on Xpresso routes. It would be very difficult to apply on Spine routes given their integrated nature.

Hotblack Desiato

Just because you don’t make short journeys, doesn’t mean you have the right to tell other people that they should be paying a significantly higher fare because you’re they are allegedly delaying you.

and where did I say I had the right to do anything? 🙄 All anyone is doing here is putting forward an opinion.