Help needed

goodbyeloser

Dies anyone know the answer outcome of this. My husband is refusing to leave the family home we have 2 kids 8 and 6 he has another property he owns with a sibling. He is refusing to go , the atmosphere is toxic hostile generally very uncomfortable and not healthy for kids to be around.

My family home is an hour drive away. I feel no other choice but to take kids and move back into my parents house, moving schools for kids etc...

Am I allowed do this ? Can husband stop me?? Its what i want but feel very trapped

Any advice welcome

This is tricky as your husband is legally a joint guardian of your children and as such, he has an equal right to a say in where they live, and also where they go to school, as you do.

Is there any chance if you left that he would actually consent to you taking the children with you?

In saying that, women leave with their children all the time, and its better to ask for forgiveness than permission, especially if the situation is becoming dangerous or threatening.

Though having just read your other thread, if matters are escalating (and it seems like they are) maybe speak to women's aid again before you make any decisions.

goodbyeloser

Thank you meant to say its not what I want but feel I'm being backed into a corner ...

I don't want to upend the kids but my ex is being so unreasonable and dragging things out .

Like effectively I'm bring pushed out by his behaviour and lack of bring reasonable

Would he have to go to family court to look for custody . I've tried ringing women's aid but no answer I'll keep trying

Thanks for reply

Hi again,

If you can't get a reply from Women's Aid, try Treoir.ie - they are a gold mine of information are not just for unmarried parents and will be happy to help married parents too.

Here is the link to their PDF on Custody / Joint Custody.

goodbyeloser

Thanks so much I rang women's aid and they said I have every right to move to a safe environment with my children but they are advising to get a legal standpoint as well

BronsonTB

He could move out but he is legally entitled to move back in anytime. His legal team would be advising not moving out so it may be why he's not moving out rather than refusing.

It's an awful position to be in & the start of a long road.

Go to your solicitor asap (Make sure it's not your family solicitor, both have to be different) and get their legal opinion on where you stand.

You can certainly move , but know all your rights & best practice beforehand. (Leaving may weaken any seperation agreement to do with the house in the future so cover all bases)

It's raw now & hard to think straight but good luck with it all.

goodbyeloser

I spoke to a solicitor who said to me that I shouldn't move out of the family home even temporarily...I don't really understand why though. He's recommended I get a protection order or a safety order but I know that if served one on him he would go and get one on me and then tusla get involved I think it would just make things worse ... honestly it's been like this for 5 months ... he could easily move to his other property its a very low mortgage and very near to the kids for access etc ... I can't get my head around how difficult he's making it. He hates me , that I know, but why punish the kids and make them live in this environment

Am reaching end of my tether feel so trapped

XsApollo

If you have no reason to be worried about tusla then what’s that matter?

woman with children getting a protection order against your husband won’t matter if he got one against you.

You being the mother with children the majority of things will be in your favour early on.

and the other property your husband owns , was it bought while ye were together, if it was it effectivley belongs to you also.

not possible for you to move there?

goodbyeloser

I know I just want to keep the kids out of it as much as possible ...

His property was bought before we got married, but legally its still a marital asset, so I'm entitled to half of his share of it.

If anyone is going to move into it, it should be him and let the kids stay in their family home , that would be the right thing for him to do ...

a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118166158#Comment_118166158

In your earlier thread, you mentioned the property he owns jointly with his sibling is rented out.

If that is the case, it may not be so easy to remove the tenant, and his sibling would also have a say.

goodbyeloser

Yeah its rented , but if the owner is moving back into the property its just normal notice or maybe 2 or 3 months.

If the sibling kicks up a fuss, which i know they wouldn't, he's pretending its an issue so delay/stop moving out, its the difference of paying his own mortgage on that property which is 800e versus renting a random property for 1900e in the area near the family home.

It makes sense for him to move into his other property financially. And really they both Co own that property, which was used as a domestic home not an investment property, so these are the liabilities that come with co owning a property- I feel that's up to them to figure out

goodbyeloser

What was used to be referred to as an allowance every month, which is now technically Spousal maintenance/support . Is now being reduced to €250 a month and he is saying after this month he won't be paying it anymore and I will be responsible.

I currently have no job and no access to socal.welfare . Can he do this ? I'm looking for part time work around the hours kids are in school but its hard to get as it's only 4 hours a day ... can anyone advise ?

JimmyAlfonso

You mention your solicitor advised not to move out of family house yet you can't understand why your husband won't! In these situations the husband is at a disadvantage with custody and property in a lot of cases so he's protecting what he has. If he moves out he'll pay for his other house, the family house and the kids yet have access to only one of them most of the time.

Mediation where the practicalities are laid out and an agreement in relation to finances, property and kids need to put in place need to happen. Until such time both parties will dig their heals in.

goodbyeloser

We are in mediation .I asked whether he can stop maintenance while I am looking for a job ?

Shutuplaura

Just speak to a solicitor. By the souns of things they don't want you to leave the family home because it might be hard to get back in. Follow their advice and ask why if you do not understand the response. Everything here is well intentioned guesswork.

Also, stop posting with the username 'Goodbyelooser'. Looks tacky and god forbid it came out in any mediation/court setting, you would look bad.

mrcheez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118180042#Comment_118180042

coming from "Shutuplaura"

XsApollo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118179994#Comment_118179994

He can do whatever he likes right now and you can do whatever you like right now.

wether what he is doing is in anyway moral or right depends on how ye got to the situation in the first place?

Family Law, divorce in Ireland doesn’t apportion blame to one party.

maybe you have cheated on him, messed his life up and now want him to get out of his house, so you can shack up with another fella.

then I would agree with his actions.

now it maybe he has done the same to you and is now making your life miserable so he can get everything and pressures you to leave, then I would say take him to court and file for divorce and take everything you can off him.

in the eye of Irish family law, he can’t just abandon his responsibility regardless of how ye got to where ye are.

it doesn’t matter how ye got where ye are

the fact that you are married with kids , I presume you weren’t working as to rear the children and he was working.

ye both contributed in your own way to maintaining a family.

he cannot leave you penniless and no court will let him if he has the means to.

you will not have to leave your house especially with kids. He will be leaving.

The shoe is very much on your foot in this situation.

the family law system in this country is great for protecting women and children that need it but is useless at protecting fathers on the receiving end of the same.

Basically if he is playing hardball and being a dick , then get a more aggressive solicitor that specialises in family law, wont be long softening his cough.

goodbyeloser

Thanks for the help. I'm currently awaiting a legal aid solicitor.

It's very much a case of him controlling my life for the last 10 years financially and emotionally . I'm not looking fir blame to be assigned just want what is owed to me and paying maintenance to me while I await a job surely isn't too much to ask but he is definitely not on a normal reasonable scale.

JimmyMW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118179226#Comment_118179226

Hi Op, I have been following your thread and I can empathize on the tough time your going through, its a long hard road ahead, of which I have had personal experience. However I just want to offer an alternative point of view here in relation to your spousal maintenance, and correct me if Im wrong anywhere here. Prior to the break up your husband was bringing in the financial income and you were able to remain in the home and look after the kids and the household etc, now this is a very good position to be in as most couples have no choice only to pay childcare and have two incomes to cover costs. The situation has changed and the relationship has ended, financially this presents a problem, the joint overall costs go up as now there will be two households to pay for and to run, note costs will only vary marginally per number living in a household, ie its the same cost to have the heat on for 2 people as it is one person etc. So in order to facilitate this generally the obvious option is the person who was not in paid employment will need to get paid employment which will enable this change, which will unlikely be a part time position, therefore if necessary to facilitate this the kids may need to go to childcare after school etc. Sorry to give you the hard line here but the break-up has resulted in this situation and unfortunately both of you along with your kids will need to make pretty significant adjustments to make this work. Also remember if things are not amicable its important that neither side set a precedent which will negatively impact themselves in court, its terrible, its unfortunate but its the reality of the system we need to work within.

goodbyeloser

Thank you appreciate the response and you are right. Things definitely need to change.

I was looking to do full time childminding from my home. And rent out the spare room that he is currently residing in. That would generate approx 1700euro a month doing both , along with child allowance, social welfare I was hoping that would be enough. Medium term I definitely will be getting back into permanent better paying salary. But while the kids are adjusting it's best to keep them as routined as possible

My husband has his parents house to return to for a short period as an option or he has his other property with his sibling which is Currently rented. But the yarn he is spinning is he can't move into his other property, sibling won't let him etc etc which I know are all lies. He doesn't want to move in there , because it would make life too easy for me and I wouldn't be made " work" for it .

Unfortunately I'm dealing with a very spiteful and nasty man and I don't see how it will resolve without a judge ruling on things and that could take a long time ...

JimmyMW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189167#Comment_118189167

That's a very unfortunate situation particularly for the kids, however from a legal stand point I would imagine he is being advised not to leave the house. Believe me if there is anyway of trying to discuss it you will be better off rather than court, again unfortunately I have personal experience of this and know that discussions are not always possible depending on who your dealing with, I wish you the best OP. One word of advice thou, unfortunately my own ex is very venomous and has taken to trying to turn the kids by telling them loads of stories which are not true, and even if they were shouldn't be told to kids of their age, fortunately I have a very good relationship with them and im able to deal with it, don't bring the kids into it, they are innocent by standers and all they want is to be able to love and be loved by their mam and dad.

goodbyeloser

I am all for reaching an agreement in mediation but honestly I don't know I he is capable. It's all a game for him.... losing sight of what's important, ie the kids and just going off on a vendetta against me. I hope he sees sense in this , for everyone's sake I don't know why he would want to end up on court spending thousands

ztoical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118166671#Comment_118166671

Depending how long the tenant has been there it could be a lot longer then 3 months. It can be over 6 and thats assuming the tenant leaves when asked and his sibling is willing to let him kick a tenant out to move in himself. I'm not agreeing with your OH actions but if you try pushing the rental propriety as an option he has a very easy come back in court as to why he can't move into it. If your parents is an option then I would move there. Wanting to stay in such an unpleasant environment 'for the kids' is utterly the wrong choice. All it does is drag everything out and make them more upset and damages their relationship with both parents in the long term.

goodbyeloser

Sorry I don't want to stay in this environment!!

But he has family around the corner, he should move out - not me and the kids ! My family home is an hour away and the kids would have to change school , I agree living like this is damaging but I have no control over this situation apart from hope he sees sense ...

Girl Geraldine

Get a barring order against him. As a woman with children, you will more than likely be granted one. All you will have to say is that you are "in fear of him".

As a woman with children, all the cards are very heavily stacked in your favour. In practice, the court will take the side of the mother almost by default, unless there are some compelling reasons why they should not to take her side - ie, having a history of violence or substance abuse, etc, and even then it would have to be significant, repeated and not showing any improvement after repeated interventions of social services and the courts.

If you apply for a barring order with the correct reasons stated, they you will get it and he will have to move out or else he will be in contempt of court and he would be in big trouble. The Gardai could forcibly eject him from the house. He can always present to the local Council as homeless if he is stuck.

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288126#Comment_118288126

The op did not say she was "in fear of him".

Then you talk of barring order being put in place for "correct reasons".

Are you advising that the op lie?

Girl Geraldine

The OP states that is a toxic, hostile atmosphere, and that the marriage has been characterised by his controlling behaviour, financial and emotional control.

Wouldn't anyone be in fear in those circumstances? She can state that his presence is having a negative impact on her own and the childrens physical and mental wellbeing and that matters would improve for her and the children if he was removed from the family home as he is unwilling to do so voluntarily.

The court must do what is in the best interests of the children, and if the best interests of the children would involve a barring order to remove an uncooperative and unreasonable husband from the family home, then the court can give that order.

I would say apply for the barring order. I believe she is very likely to get it if she hits the right key words and phrases in the application. Anyway, the worst that can happen is that it'll be refused.

SVI40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118166158#Comment_118166158

Just be aware that you are not entitled to half of anything. Nothing in Irish family law states that. The courts can appropriate the assets as they see fit. Their over riding concern will always, and rightfully so, be the welfare of the children.

Pawwed Rig

Is he a good Dad? Does he have a good relationship with the kids?

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288126#Comment_118288126

Terrible advice and sure way to escalate tensions in the house.

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118289136#Comment_118289136

So the OP has not said she is in fear.

Different thing.

You are advising manipulation of a system.

Girl Geraldine

I have not said anything wrong.

OP came here looking for advice to help her situation. I'm simply advising her of a possibly strategy that would maximize her and her children's best interests.

And I'm not saying anything that a highly driven and agressive family law solicitor with years of experience of how the family law system works in practice wouldnt advise their client.

Even if the family last system is dysfunctional, that dysfunction also presents legitimate opportunities to gain and upper hand in family law situations. It's massively stacked in favour of women. I'm my opinion, a woman would be mad not too utilise the opportunities that the system presents her with.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290480#Comment_118290480

How is it in the best interest of the child? Nothing I have read indicates the man is a bad father.

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290480#Comment_118290480

She could also log a call to Guards the next time they have an argument. Then it's logged. Works great in court.

The relationship is toxic, does not mean that can "defame" the other partner.

MickSil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290796#Comment_118290796

Indeed, it could only "benefit" the woman to win a case. Applying for a barring order just to get the upper hand is a common strategy (and a despicable one), but it's no way in the interest of the children. I've been there myself and I can confirm that such an order will only escalate the situation and cause long term damage to all parties involved.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290868#Comment_118290868

Yeah agreed. We should also bear in mind that what the OP says is only 1 side of the story and we are only hearing selected parts of her story. There is also his side of the story and his emotions and concerns for his children. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

The poster above is correct though in that men usually fair a lot worse in the family courts.

The poster who suggested making up lies about a father to get one over on him is an absolutely despicable human being.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290480#Comment_118290480

That is a morally disgraceful, nevermind illigal tactic. In years to come, when the kids have grown up, they'd hear the truth and I suspect struggle to forgive their mother.

To suggest it, especially on a public forum, undermines so much work which campaigners worldwide have done over the past few years to encourage people to Believe Women when they recount their experiences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

The OP however should follow that route if she has a genuine fear for her safety, but she has not mentioned that.

goodbyeloser

Thanks for your advice. I can say that I am not in physical fear of him. I know he would be too clever to lay a hand on me, hasn't stopped him though goading me into hitting him during arguments. If I was a less string person I probably would be afraid of him....what I am afraid of is the damage all this is doing to the kids . The hostile silences they are living with has to be affecting them . Its affecting me , its so uncomfortable and absolutely toxic on a day to day basis . Its not normal and its unnecessary, he has 2 seperate places he could go to. He's hanging onto the family home why ? Does he want to live there , while me and kids have to rent somewhere else ?? Is he a good dad ? We'll he's treating the mother of his children like a piece of dirt , all the while his kids think the sun shines from his backside . I've been to the guards , they advised a protection order or barring order but I'm.too scared of the consequences, things escalating and the living situation being even worse than it already is. .I appreciate you are only hearing my side, and obviously I'm going to say that everything I'm saying is the truth but that's because it is. This man leaves a trail of destruction in his narcissist wake , he has problems with everyone but refuses to take accountability for anything.

Everyone saying he has a perfect right to stay in the family home ... of course he does , but it doesn't mean its the right thing to do. Forcing this horrendous living situation for all of us.

He's not in any danger of losing his kids , I've never ever said I would stop him seeing them and was willing to give very generous access to them . Also our mediation collapsed after 3 sessions , he wouldn't negotiate or compromise on anything. So he has literally done nothing since and seems to actually want to go to court.

Jequ0n

Great, so now you have diagnosed him as a narcissist, while also blaming him for your physical assaults on him.

Seriously OP, I wish you all the best, but I am not sure how objective your accounts are, or if you are doing yourself any favours.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298723#Comment_118298723

You seem to be under the assumption that you will be the one that gets primary custody and that YOU were willing to give access. Can you not see the issue here? You see the kids as yours and the decisions as yours with him as the beneficiary on YOUR decisions. On that basis he had most likely been advised by his solicitor to not give up anything less it makes his case weaker.

Now the majority of times it is the woman who gets primary custody but if you were set to lose your children and be at the whim of someone who clearly does not like you how would that make you feel?

He will have a list of grievances similar to yours and if he had started the thread it may be the case that the way he put forward his case painted you in equally as bad a light as you have painted him.

TLDR from a legal perspective if the divorce is going to be acrimonious then neither side should give an inch at this stage

goodbyeloser

I never said I physically went near him. But living with someone who takes pleasure in goading you to do so is not healthy. Or normal.

I've labelled him a narcissist because that's what he is.

I originally came on here for advice . I can see how people just like to exagerate and escalate a topic , so thanks to everyone who gave genuine advice.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299256#Comment_118299256

„hasn't stopped him though goading me into hitting him during arguments.“

You are contradicting yourself.

You have painted your husband in a very negative light from the start of the thread, which is understandable given the pending divorce. But your biggest pain point is that he does not move out just because you want this to happen.

Sorry OP, but your choice of username, the baseless labelling, and your unwillingness to accept that the living arrangements are likely to stay like this for a while, do not make you look like your main interest is to keep the peace for everyone involved.

I don’t think there is anything more you can do apart from following legal advice and accepting that you have to share the accommodation for the time being.

goodbyeloser

How am I contradicting myself?

The picture I've painted is the truth , actually I wouldn't even go into the full detail or extent here .

Like I said I just wanted to see if anyone had any experience or advice .

Baseless labelling and my username are being used against me ?

Anyway like I said thanks to everyone for the helpful advice

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299485#Comment_118299485

Ah I see, I had misunderstood you. I had understood your post as if he had successfully goaded you into hitting him. Apologies.

I’d still stay clear of the labelling to avoid any accusations of slander.

"...I know he would be too clever to lay a hand on me, hasn't stopped him though goading me into hitting him during arguments..."

Being goaded into it is no excuse.

If you have physically assaulted him during arguments, then he has legitimate grounds to apply for a barring order against you for domestic violence.

Assault is assault, whether its a man or a woman who does it.

goodbyeloser

Omg I haven't assaulted anyone !!! Never in my life and certainly not him , read my posts , I never touched him !

goodbyeloser

He used to goad me into "trying " to hit him ! Apologies I thought it was implied that that is what he was trying to do. No I never ever went near him despite his attempts to rile me up so much that I would !

zimmermania

Listening to any advice you will get here is a big mistake,talk to a solr then make your mind up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290480#Comment_118290480

Once upon a time, all someone had to say was that they were "in fear" of their partner and it was enough to get them thrown out of their home. Usually the husband. Even if it was a complete fabrication. Applying for barring orders was used and abused as "a strategy" as you call it.

Thankfully, the courts came to see this for what it was and put in place procedures where it is now not quite so easy to get someone thrown out of their home. There must be records, some kind of proof, and it involves a hearing where the alleged "abuser" is given the opportunity to have their side heard in court.

But the downside of it is, the genuine cases where someone is actually being beaten black and blue or living in real fear of an abusive partner, now also have to go through this process to remove their abusers. Past abusers of the barring order process have done them no favours.

If the process hadn't been used and abused as a "strategy" by so many in the past, it would now be much easier for those in genuine fear.

its a disgusting thing to suggest using barring orders as a strategy.

Girl Geraldine

Whatever happened the "I believe her" mantra that was being promoted a couple of years ago. It seems the courts have decided to go the opposite direction of what you're saying is correct.

Mantras have no place in court rooms.