The Julia Devaney tapes and the Tuam Children's Home

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134489#Comment_118134489

Repeating yourself doesn't make you look less foolish. Any chance of a link?

The number was always 796. Corless paid 4 Euro for each death certificate. The total cost was 3,184 Euro. But....there were no burial records.

The children are marked as having died variously of tuberculosis, convulsions, measles, whooping cough, influenza, bronchitis and meningitis, among other illnesses.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134958#Comment_118134958

So yesterday you were slagging off Keelin Shanley and Vicky Phelan. Today it's Catherine Corless.

Issues, serious issues.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133751/#Comment_118133751

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130231#Comment_118130231

Ah yes. You learned no lessons in the original Mother and Baby home thread.

As I said to you then, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

By all means, carry on...😉

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134937#Comment_118134937

Didn't say I believed the guy ,corless is not a particularly impressive speaker, its just curious how she is such a celebrated figure

Apparently the county homes produced even worse mortality figures than places ran by religious orders

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135000#Comment_118135000

If a person is claiming to be a historian and is both heavily biased and not the most critical, all pretty relevant. There's a reason only the most extreme of outlets gave him attention. Meanwhile Corless is well regarded even if she is an amateur historian hence multiple academic institutes praising her work. Meanwhile Brian..

The fact you and some other posters don't seem to care where 800 bodies are buried and don't seem to want the conditions in the home investigated.. That is pretty odd tbh.

It's like you're treating what amounts to a national shame as point scoring.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135074#Comment_118135074

In one year alone (1947), the death rate of babies at the Tuam mother and baby home was almost double the rate of other homes around the country.

The death rate among infants in the homes was almost twice that of the national average for ‘illegitimate’ children.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135076#Comment_118135076

Corless is " well regarded " by those who lap up this kind of story

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135215#Comment_118135215

So far, what she said is turning out to be true. There is 800 children that were buried at an unknown location. The location specified accounts for at least some of them. It's unknown how many at this point in time. There is also ample reason to suspect neglect. So obviously the state should investigate this and this seems up annoy certain groups.

Meanwhile you'll claim some conspiracy between the media and academia. Because the reality is Brian and co are fringe extremists. They're threading water in an attempt to regain the narrative but thankfully the efforts to claim Corless was engaging in some sort of scam has failed.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135215#Comment_118135215

That's actually a good point ,

It seems to be a case if your not anti church don't post here ....

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135279#Comment_118135279

I think the primary guideline is not to post nonsense.

Or at least be prepared to defend it... 😉

The number was always 796. Corless paid Galway county council 4 Euro for each death certificate. The total cost was 3,184 Euro. But....there were no burial records.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118132423#Comment_118132423

The church committed atrocities off their own back. Moving child molesters around wasn't a failing of society. They chose power,money and influence over the children and women in their care kinda sums up the value of their "morals".

My ancestors were part of a society that was beholden to the church, thankfully those days are gone, most of us are no longer under the boot of the church.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135654#Comment_118135654

I don't think Gatling wishes to address the fact he made up the figure of thousands and he seems to not give a **** about the unknown burial site/s of 800 children. Instead it's just claiming anti RCC agenda even though the church isn't denying it...

Astartes

I'm just waiting for someone to claim the nuns neglected and abused those babies in self defence.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135734#Comment_118135734

Again I'm going by what was reported in the media and you already know this ,

But Sure make up more shite ,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118136428#Comment_118136428

Weirdly you haven't produced any article that mentioned "thousands"... So at the moment, it looks like you're making an entirely unsubstantiated claim and coming across as pretty uninformed on the story to boot.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135654#Comment_118135654

Burial records were not a statuary requirement. It really is a non issue because burial is vastly less important as registering a death. No one is keeping track if you scatter ashes nowadays. There are many things that could be point out as genuine issues, you could ask why are the Tuam death records all signed by Bina Rabitte and not a doctor or even a sister.

Some one here mentioned about county homes. They were nearly always worse than privately run religious homes. There is one exception which is Bessboro. The Mother and Baby Report actually praises the medical care at many mother and baby homes and argues it was better than in rural areas until the 1950s. There are many aspects of these places that is not scandalous. What is scandalous was very poor medical care during the war years at Tuam, Bessbough and a few other locations and lack of intervention by the appointed medical team.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118136428#Comment_118136428

Find just one article (you should be able to find lots if this is true)

You keep making a claim which is false.Now its possible you made that claim in error in which case then just say so ,it's OK to being wrong about things.

It's seems to me you made a dumb claim,it's been pointed out to you by several posters that it's horseshit and you're doing the cowardly head in the sand double down.

Be a grown up and admit you were talking shìte.

Deeec

I don't think Catherine Corless is wrong in her findings but to bring it to completion she needs to stand aside and let some independent team investigate fully.

I think Catherine is on a personal mission because her own mother was born illegitimate and suffered because of it. I did originally think Catherine just had a general interest in the Tuam home - when I heard the story of her mother I no longer think Catherine is impartial. She now needs to hand this investigation over to someone else.

I don't agree with everything the OP said but I do agree that Catherine may have been selective about what quotes she took from Julia Devanney. It would be great to hear the full tape.

What needs to be investigated is why the deaths were so high - this is the real issue here. As regards burial records - alot of churches don't even have records of who is buried in their churchyards. I'm not sure anyone is going to find where all these kids were buried so we can't say for sure that they were not given a proper burial.

Are the remains of the children found in the septic tank going to be tested for DNA to try and establish who they are and if they were children from the home. I know it's a big task but surely this would have to be done.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139481#Comment_118139481

Exactly what should she stand aside from? It's been 7 years, has there been an investigation that's been missed? I don't think so, it's endless waffle from the state. As long as she continues to bring media attention to the inactivity, she's doing those babies a service and we should all be grateful.

As for an independent investigation, if you look at the report produced after such great length, I think you'll see just how poorly it would be done. Now, if the UN ran the investigation and brought in the forensic resources necessary, maybe. But one run by the government of Ireland will be, effectively, one run by the RCC and find nothing, of course. And take forever to do so.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139546#Comment_118139546

Catherine should be applauded for the work she has done ( she has done great work) but I think you are missing the point I am making - in that she has been personally tainted by what happened her mother. For me once I heard that her own mother was illegitimate it put a different slant on Catherines crusade. I think to find the true story some other ( impartial) party needs to take over. ( This doesn't have to be ran by government).

I also think publishing her new book was a big mistake - for many she has lost some credibility.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139594#Comment_118139594

She's recently won another honor for her work. Trying to cast aspersions on her motivations doesn't reflect well on you. Her work is accurate and as has been stated here and elsewhere not been rebutted in any scientific way.

She's done an enormous service to Ireland. It's no surprise the RCC defenders here look to any opportunity to attack her, they're just following orders and none of the boardsies attacking her have a prayer of achieving as much as she's done in her life, in theirs.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139667#Comment_118139667

OMG - I am not casting any aspersions on Catherines work- I am saying she done great work - she has been diligent throughout. All I am saying is that she may be biased in how she approaches this and her findings. Surely you can see this yourself - any investigation should be done by someone with impartial views.

*If she wants to achieve the outcome she wants she needs to step back. She could still be involved in the background but not take the lead.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139706#Comment_118139706

Umm, where is she leading an investigation right now? Last we saw in that independent article posted here was an osteoarchaeologist saying more needed to be done as this is a very long and time consuming process. That's the only investigation currently going on. There are plenty of investigations that CAN happen, like, around the testimony for the report, disinterring and preserving the septic tank catacombs, DNA sequencing if possible to find surviving relatives, burial certificates, as well as other M&B homes (Bessborough) where to my knowledge nothing has happened other than preventing the land going for development. So, what investigation do you think she should recuse herself from?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139781#Comment_118139781

I dont think your reading my posts at all. I dont want to discuss this any further with you - your missing the point Im making completely and going off on a tangent.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139838#Comment_118139838

It's because certain posters are being dicks if they think you tried to challenge their narrative so now it's attack your posts.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139706#Comment_118139706

Has she shown any bias to date?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139442#Comment_118139442

Lol 😂🤣😂

Face it the narrative is being threatened and several people don't like it ,

And the excuse oh your of the Roman Catholic church in Ireland , utter nonsense ,do you expect everyone to only agree with your opinion ,not going to happen pal ,

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139968#Comment_118139968

Oh dear,

This is embarrassing by any metric.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139968#Comment_118139968

the narrative hasn't been threatened. you posted a made up number and are now throwing your toys out of the pram because you were challenged on it.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139975#Comment_118139975

No I didn't .

Again I was going off media reports and claims by so called witnesses ,I haven't been challenged at all , oh you told a lie about this person ,show me where I said any about this person . ehhhh , ehhhh, ehhhh, your pro Roman Catholic church 🤣🤣🤣 yeah no ,

You made a claim about a certain YouTube channel ,no I did not I mentioned no YouTube channel or specific individual.

Surprise , surprise 👏👏👏

osarusan

Gatling, you are on the PUP fraud thread criticising people for not providing evidence for their claims. And here you are doing the same thing.

As you keep saying it was the media narrative that there were 'thousands' of bodies, can you please provide some evidence of this media narrative?

Can ypu pleas practice what you preach? Because so far, to use your own words, 'you have provided zero evidence of this claim , Zero.'

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139968#Comment_118139968

I doubt I have ever seen someone make a fool of themselves on Boards as much as you have. Well done!

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140001#Comment_118140001

I haven't made any claims about a youtube channel. perhaps you read that the same place you read about the thousands of babies?

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139481#Comment_118139481

I believe they are going to try and sequence mitochondrial DNA using NGS. It is a major task, as they have to validate the methods first and then begin the actual sequencing. I imagine it will take a long time to work through, as the DNA will need to be extracted from the bones, and each individual fragment will need to be sequenced.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139481#Comment_118139481

We've known about the missing 796 children since 2014. That's 7 years and really there has been very little progress in identifying the children and in providing closure for the survivors who feel their child, their brother, their sister is among the bodies buried inappropriately. Those children have yet to receive a proper burial. The government have been dragging their heels and without amazing women like Catherine Corless and Maeve O'Rourke and Catherine Connolly, there would be nothing done. Do you think the process would take so long in any other country?

Deeec

Once again I not criticising what Catherine has achieved. You said in your post yourself that it has been 7 years of little progress. Do you not think maybe it's time for someone else to give it the push it needs to get properly investigated and the these poor children given a proper burial. I don't think Catherine is strong enough to challenge the government. That doesn't take away from the excellent work Catherine has done though.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140258#Comment_118140258

I don't to be honest. I think she wants to see it through and I respect that. I think Dr. Maeve O'Rourke is also doing amazing work from a human rights abuses perspective.

Who else would you suggest? The relevant ministers are excuse merchants including O'Gorman.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140337#Comment_118140337

The UN. It's beyond international embarrassment at this point. FFS mass graves not being investigated when it'd be trivially easy to do. Sad state of affairs but it's what we've been indoctrinated to take in this country

Edit: I'd be interested in @Deeec answer to this question.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140077#Comment_118140077

It was quoted on here that I mentioned YouTube and lieing about the lady several others keep going on about ,

Never mentioned YouTube or anyone in particular .

😴

Gatling

Gatling, you are on the PUP fraud thread

Yes I'm posting in numerous thread .

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140774#Comment_118140774

You made a claim about a certain YouTube channel ,no I did not I mentioned no YouTube channel or specific individual.

you said I made a claim about a youtube channel. I didn't. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140786#Comment_118140786

That's obvious

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141081#Comment_118141081

nah. you're dribbling **** again.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140707#Comment_118140707

Without a shadow of a doubt. The UN should have been brought in ages ago as part of an independent investigation. Our government cannot be trusted and are hoping the story just goes away - they don't give a damn about survivors. Many people have called for UN involvement especially around the forced/illegal adoptions, mass graves and vaccine trials.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140154#Comment_118140154

In your eyes, what is required for a proper burial? Why don't you insist on it for still births 2021?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141609#Comment_118141609

In the other Mother and Baby home thread you said "I dont think any babies were sold". You refused to acknowledge it when proof was provided. You always run away from the truth on the other thread.

In this thread you couldn't wait to say that it was a "fake scandal" and blamed it on "poor health outcomes" and medical staff. Now you are trying to compare what happened in the Tuam mother and baby home to still births.

Re medical staff - they actually closed the Bessborough home because the death rate had gotten so bad

68% of babies in Bessborough home died (irishexaminer.com)

Infant death rates at the Bessborough mother-and-baby home in Cork soared to almost 70% in the early 1940s.

Concern about the “habitual” high infant mortality rate at the home was so grave that the Cork County Medical Officer Robert Condy, prepared two separate reports about Bessborough for the Cork County Manager in 1943 and 1944.

The first confirms most of the children were listed as dying from “debility”, some from gastroenteritis, and “a small number” due to prematurity. It also speculates that the lack of adequate nursing qualifications by staff may have been a reason for the large number of children dying there.

Dr Condy also took issue with the nuns boarding out children to foster parents from as early an age as just six weeks old.

“I am informed that the age at which infants are discharged from this section for boarding-out, averages around one year but infants have been boarded out at as early an age as six weeks,” wrote Dr Condy. “It would seem undesirable that infants should be separated from their mothers at such an early period.”

These reports also seem predate those of State chief medical officer, James Deeny, who inspected the institution in the mid- to late 1940s and closed it down briefly due to his concerns about the level of child death there.

“The deaths had been going on for years. They had done nothing about it, had accepted the situation and were quite complacent about it,” Dr Deeny wrote in his 1989 memoir.

The nuns were paid well to take care of these children - why didn't they seek training? I am convinced there was wilful neglect.

Cluedo Monopoly

The Missing Children is on at 10:15pm tonight on RTE 1

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141139#Comment_118141139

big bold word 😹

Watching The Missing Children now.

Barbaric and vile levels of cruelty towards both the living and the dead.

It's beyond belief the evil that existed. Very nearly had this grown man in tears.

CutieD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143985#Comment_118143985

I feel sick watching this.