How much should a tradesman charge a day?

Ray Palmer

I have been engaging with tradesmen a lot lately and they seem to really charge what they like. I get demand and supply is in play but they really are a law unto themselves.

On a simple level if you ask for a quote they give you just a figure not a quote with time, labour, materials and description. This is a legal requirement but good luck getting any to do that and by asking they will normally decide not to do the job as you are seen as awkward.

I recently asked for a quote for some ground works which was using a con saw and putting in basic drainage pipe. On level of trade skill we are talking minimum so not like a plumber or an electrician. After asking some questions to get to the labour costs it was €350 a day and says it will take 2 days with 2 people (€1400). Now I reckon it will actually only take a days work but they would have to come on 2 separate days due to cure time but also not 2 people for both visits. So to me it seems I would be paying over the odds per day but also overcharged on time. There is also and extra €600 for materials and waste disposal. Hiring a consaw for the weekend is €75 and material would be max €250 waste can be expensive but again seems like overcharging.

Am I way off on how much tradesmen should charge and what seems reasonable?

ebbsy

Pay cash.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111843#Comment_118111843

So how much do you think they will charge then?

Deregos.

For a start you could save by supplying any materials yourself, hire the con saw yourself and get a skip to take away any waste materials yourself.

And cash for domestic jobs is always an incentive for a contractor to indulge in a bit of haggling over price.

Murph85

Prices are mad. Would you not consaw it and dispose of it yourself ? I saved a mate e800 by doing the ground works on a project in dublin. Take up 2.5 m of concrete path, to put 4 inch waste into. Took me 1.5 hours. Then came back to cement over the next day. 2.5 hours on site and the plumber wanted e800 from him...

Prices are high. But you lose so much time driving around quoting, getting material and then several visits to site potentially.

Where are you based ?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111913#Comment_118111913

I am only asking about whether their quotes seem reasonable. I will do it myself at these prices and the problem with cash jobs is insurance when doing work is what lots of people don't worry about but I do as I used to work in insurance and know the issues can and do arise. If the solution is to break the law there is something wrong with the industry. I also need it for my own tax records as some of the work is for a rental property.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111919#Comment_118111919

Offered video so he didn't need to come out but he insisted. Said I would get materials etc... Will do it myself now but I am asking about how unreasonable it all seems as the labour is so expensive and over quoted. Do you think it sounds like 4 days full labour? Does the rate sound reasonable? It is worth my while buying a consaw and doing the work myself at these rates and I would still save a chunk of money and probably what I will do. There is actually road works approaching my house and I may just get them to do some cuts

rustynutz

You have to understand when tradesmen are in high demand, like they are now, they don't want the hassle of the two day job like your describing, and if they have to visit the site on two separate occasions for cure time etc. They are right to charge two days for that. They have their pick of bigger jobs, lasting weeks or months, without the hassle of moving tools and plant to a job that will only last a couple days, then maybe have to chase payment etc. I'm not a tradesmen currently, bit I do work in construction management, and tradesmens work is not easy, and rarely straightforward. There is a reason why very few irish people are taking up apprenticeships now, hence the shortage in the first place.

Murph85

Petrol con saw hire from this place, e20 day. 60 week ex vat in dublin...

https://www.hirehere.ie/sawing-cutting-grinding/petrol-powered/consaw-petrol-cut-off-saw-300mm

Adverts.ie can be good place to find people. Problem with through the books is. Fifty percent of it goes in tax. Then 11% employers prsi if relevant...

Deregos.

So what you're really asking is . . . Is €350 a day too much for someone who does groundworks for a living?

No, I don't think so, you probably could find someone to do it cheaper if you look hard enough . . but they'll probably only balls it up.

a fat guy

Honestly whatever they want if they do it correctly.

Its not like they're in abundance or running a charity.

That said, if you can do it yourself go ahead.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112039#Comment_118112039

I did state in the first post I am aware they can be rented and they deliver and pick up. Really only talking about labour costs and over quoting

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112025#Comment_118112025

I understand that they don't want jobs like mine but they are saying that I will pay for 4 man days which would be fine if they were going to be here for that long. You and I both know they won't be here for the full 2 days. They will come in the morning spend half a day here then go to another job for the rest of the day then one will come back the next day for a couple hours and go off to another job. If I added more to the job they would charge me more again even though I paid for 4 full days labour.

I studied civil engineering and do project management with costings in IT. I fully aware of sharp practices and charging 2 people full days labour for the same person is really what is going on. The job is basically digging a very small ditch with the aid of power tools. Every part of the quote to me seems like gouging. I will do it myself now

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112079#Comment_118112079

Really honestly you have no issue with being overcharged? Do you feel the same about anything in short supply? I am not asking for charity just fair pricing and accurate quotes which they won't actually provide.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112053#Comment_118112053

You do get the labourer isn't getting that? He is probably not even paying them legitimately as when I asked about vat he said the price is all inclusive after breaking down the labour and materials. Funny how people are all about taxing the rich but are willing to let others away with tax fraud. Somebody said they pay 50% on tax plus 11% prsi where needed. It is not true unless you earn over a million are you pay 50% on your income the higher rate is not your entire income and most people only pay up to 35% on tax for their income. People don't understand maths and tax free allowances

Jequ0n

Gosh OP, you really seem to be having a hard time with tradesmen. Maybe let your mother do the bargaining again because that worked so well last time.

we recently got some outside work done materials were 1,400 which we got and the work was 2,300 I worked out they were roughly paying themselves 500 euro a day so if they work a full week it a weekly wage of 2,500 not bad at all and if they have any sense they have a good accountant we can keep the revenue off their backs. I know one had set himself up as a self-employed contractor.

All the quotes I got were much of muchness but these come with good recommendations and in fairness, they worked hard and did a very good job and they have tones of work lined up.

JimmyVik

I got some mad quotes for some jobs I did myself a few months ago.

Saved myself about €3k.

The best one was when one of them said it would take 2 men 3 days to to a job that I did in less than half a day by myself in the end.

Also, how is work valued if some IT contractor said I'm on 1,000 a day it would hardly raise an eyebrow but somehow skilled manual labor is a different issue.

We were more than happy to pay the guys who did as (A) most quotes were mostly the same (B) it's a skilled job (C) we were not prepared to do it ourselves.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112303#Comment_118112303

It is not really the case. €1k a day IT contractor is about 30 people in the entire country. To find somebody else to do their jobs would take at least a year working in the business before somebody could try to replace them. It certainly would raise an eyebrow. When you read heaslines in the papers they are often misleading. Saw one article state a consultant got €1.5 k a day it was a team of 4 people who worked weekends for 2 months. Consultants who come in for training 10 people may well charge over €1k but very different scenario.

There are definitions of skilled and semi skill labour. Basically if you need a qualification that takes over 2 years to do the job it is skilled if not required it is semi skilled. Using a con saw and digging out a ditch and putting in a drain is semi-skilled work. It is simply price gauging and people seem willing to accept it and even make excuses for it. They certainly don't like it when shops do it but as it an occasional cost people seem happy. Don't be surprised when rent goes up to cover these costs

Nickla

One thing to note is if its a one man or 2 man job is kind of irrelevant as with all trades its normal practise that you always hire a "man and a mate", particularly where machinary or electrics are involved - its to ensure that there is help nearby in the event of an accident or sudden illness.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112415#Comment_118112415

so I pay a man to dig the hole and the same amount again so somebody can watch him dig it.😐️

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058216243/how-much-should-a-tradesman-charge-a-day

Out of interest, you say here that it is a legal requirement that a quote must outline time, labour, materials, description, what law are you referring to here?

It really isn’t up to you to decide what should be quoted, it is however up to you to decide whether to pay it. Get a few more quotes.

It has to do with becoming a wealthy society as well. In the book, The second sleep by Robert Harris society collapses when the world IT system fails. He was inspired to write the book when he reflected on the fact that his father could service his own car, repair domestic appliances, mend and reuse things, and how deskilled modern society has become.

We choose to not do manual labour and choose to pay someone else to do it for us because we have the choice and money to do so.

Therefore anyone doing that sort of work is earning a lot of money.

Rover365

Someone who used to work in insurance complaining about price gouging... I've heard it all now

touts

It's supply and demand at the moment. I was recently trying to get an electrician to do about an hour's work. Couldn't get anyone interested. Phoned several. Three told me they weren't available. Two told me they only did day long contracts and if I wanted them to do the job it would cost €450 be it an hour or a day. Eventually got a friend who is handy with DIY to do it.

These things are cyclical. Right now they have the general public by the balls. When covid is back in control these insane rates will attract decent tradesmen back from Eastern Europe who will charge a fair price and then the Irish gougers can **** off back to the dole and 250 a week.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112270#Comment_118112270

You are looking at that the wrong way if you are an IT contractor on x amount per hour that that is what you should factor in when deciding to do the job yourself. In other words, it is a better use of your time for you to go out and earn x amount per hour, and to pay someone less to do the gardening job

a fat guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112169#Comment_118112169

You can't be "overcharged" when someone is providing you a service in the same vein as a carpenter. They're often solo contractors who will bill for the most they can get because they have bills, etc, to take care of and like everyone else out there want to look after themselves first and foremost. They give you a quote and do business the way they want to and thats about it. This mindset of yours honestly stinks of sour grapes, like can you seriously not understand that they can set their prices for the job however they want? It'll be either higher or lower then usual depending on how good things are at the time. Also the price of timber has skyrocketed in the past year, so materials have for certain gone up (Depends on the type you need of course).

Heres how it works in my experiences; they charge more when it's either a pain in the arse job, a type of job they don't normally do, or a pain in the arse client. This sentence really need to be stickied somewhere on this website so that people stop complaining about contractor prices in general (IT contractors get the same treatment as well, as I'm sure contractors of other professiona do too).

If you want to talk about this more you can, but fairness is not a factor when working with individual contractors and quotations tend to not be a thing, at least not outside Dublin (Your mileage may vary).

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112705#Comment_118112705

If you don't think somebody can over charge just by the fact they do it and you agree then you are out of kilter with the world and the meaning of words. I understand supply and demand perfectly and I know that is what is driving prices up and it has a name which is price gouging.

Can you actually answer the question, if you find this acceptable with tradesmen do you also accept it everywhere else?

By law the tradesmen are to give quotes and if there is such a lack of enforcement that is an issue. Again I worked in insurance and this is a huge issue and also with revenue. You may seem to be happy with the cowboy wild west approach but it means thousands of people are being cheated. I fundamentally think there needs to be a quick response to enforcement now to stop the spirally costs.

Murph85

What do we expect? the masses didnt want to touch these jobs, they are beneath them! now many are earning less in a week, than these tradesmen make in a day... Good old fashioned irish snobbery. Many people are very time poor or simply cannot put a nail into the wall. If you fall into the latter category now and have to get work done, its going to seriously cost you...

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112566#Comment_118112566

Precisely, I would add factors in like time frames and aggravation. I have a pretty health set of tools as a result of it being cheaper to do the labour myself and I will need the again at such prices.

Spook_ie

deleted

a fat guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112869#Comment_118112869

1. Overcharging means to charge in excess. A shopkeeper can overcharge for their goods if you pay more than the price they have listed, but you cannot apply the same logic to a tradesman because you do not know the variables involved in pricing a job. For example, the electricity that it costs to run a workshop is ridiculous. If you put that on a quotation you'd be laughed at.
2. It could be considered gouging if there was no risk involved in being a tradesman. However there is (Try being a carpenter during the recession or while injured, which I've seen happen to plenty before. Never have I seen something comparable happen to an insurance worker, so its understandable that you do not fully comprehend this). Risk costs money, and your costs are going to be higher if you have dependents with mouths to feed and the possibility or no money coming in at the end of the month (Again, I'm assuming you're a salaried worker so understand that this isn't something you would factor in).
3. I am answering the question, you just don't seem to get how out of touch your question is. The taxi driver at the end of the night can charge as much as they want in reality, as can those rickshaw people. That's how the world works and if you didn't have a set amount of money ready for you at the end of the month you wouldn't be making threads like these, you'd be working.

The real problem here is that your line of work (And I'm assuming lack of exposure to non 9 to 5 professions) has you in a loop when dealing with people who you think have you over a barrel. In reality those people will be doing quite badly in times of economic downturn and really need to make hay while the sun is shining.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112885#Comment_118112885

What you did was simply reverse snobbery. Making a lot of assumptions on why people don't like being over charged. If somebody struggled to get a well paid job why are they not deserving? You seem to think that people with high paying jobs look down on people doing trades. No chance people with trades size up somebody's property and try to overcharge?

So if you have no problem with charging more when supply is tight then you think rent should be allowed go up surely. There should never be any complaints on government expenditure and expenses claimed. You can of course have 2 different standards but it would also be hypocritical view.

Can you state what you think is a fair days pay for a semi skilled worker?

a fat guy

He probably shouldn't bother, because it seems like you you're a tradesman troll and have pulled this trick on AH already before:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211954/accepted-greed-from-certain-groups

Didn't get your "haha I'm annoying people on the internet" kick last time?

shenanigan

In order to answer the question of how much a tradesman should be charging we need to look at the starting point of how much they are legally required to pay their staff. In construction there is a Sectoral Employment Order that sets out these rates.

For a Category A Worker (grounds worker) that is currently €19.37/hr we then need to add pension contribution at €27.35/week or €0.70/hr, detah in service €1.14/week or €0.03/hr, sick pay €1.27/week or €0.03/hr plus a percentage addition to cover holidays, PRSI, overhead for clerical work, safety , admin, equipment etc normally around 32% plus add on costs for overheads such as supervision etc. normally 35%. So very quickly the rate just to cover costs becomes circa €36/hr

Add to that cost for small tools and van etc. that puts the rate in the 40's. Then add for profit. Nobody does this for the craic!

The rate quoted at €350/day or €43.79 does not seem far of the mark for somebody running a legitimate company and paying all associated costs.

The reality is that most contractors are paying their staff more than the SEO rate above. If there was huge money in it everyone would be doing it!

The big problem in construction is that paddy who has a wheelbarrow and a shovel and not much else will come and do work for €150 a day for cash as he is paying nothing and drawing the dole, he will take twice the time and do half the job. But paddy now hears that the lads are charging €350 a day and now wants the €350 because he is worth it but still will take twice the time to do half the job. The result is there is no trust in tradesmen. A red flag for me is tradesmen that need you to hire tools for them. At a minimum I would expect a groundworker to have a con saw.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112504#Comment_118112504

There's a lot to that alright. Plus being part and parcel of becoming a wealthier society is more people have more money, but more people are time poor because of it and any time they have off is going to be aimed at family life or simply destressing. A fair percentage are nearly always "on" because of modern communications and the requirement for 24 hour support. We also have more "stuff" in our lives and greater expectations so more things break down or need improving.

I'd add another aspect to it too; mutually assumed expertise as part of the social contract around job specialisation. So office worker whose job most could do with little enough training accepts a tradesman's word on his expertise, just in case his own is ever questioned sorta thing. There is also the snobbery angle to it too. I couldn't possibly know about plumbing types. Many of whom I've found are a generation from people working in various trades and don't like to be reminded of it. Plus some are best working with their brains, some with their hands, intellectual versus practical. I have found those who are comfortable in both are the minority. I know one guy who's seriously bright, a real master at coding and has made a pretty penny by it. I watched him try to replace a video card in one of his PC's and nearly lost the will to live watching his hamfisted attempt. I invoked the putthekettleonadgetthefukoutamyway protocol, otherwise he'd be still at it. He would always get a man in, simply because he wouldn't have a clue where or how to start even wiring a plug.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113053#Comment_118113053

1. Not the correct definition
2. Not the correct definition
3. Still not answered the question. >>>>Do you find it acceptable everywhere to charge as much as you like dependent on supply and demand?<<<<question Taxi driver cannot legally charge as much as they like.

I am perfectly aware the tradesmen have the upper hand at the moment and you assumed wrong about me. If you paid attention you would see I studied civil engineering so know a bit and worked with tradesmen. I have to use tradesmen regularly over a number of properties. It is hard to beleive so many people think it is a fair situation where tradesmen do not pay taxes nor comply with very light legislation.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113221#Comment_118113221

Different question and I note you can't say what you think is a fair pay

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058216243/how-much-should-a-tradesman-charge-a-day

Do it yourself so.

a fat guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113267#Comment_118113267

1. It literally is what popped up for the first result on duckduckgo.
2. I didn't give a definition, instead stated that iit doesn't apply.
3. Try reading my post again. Eventually it'll make sense if you stop trying to take my words literally. Obviously they cannot charge you a million euros, but I've been asked to pay something ridiculous for the rickshaw thing late at night for an anecdote (Do you seriously not see how it looks like trolling when you try to twist words like that? Might need to message a moderator about you if this keeps up)
4. Did you not get everything you needed from your last thread on tradesmen? Seems like you just want to vent about paying them. Repeatedly.

So you're a landlord too and complaining about gouging? Or are you going to pull a "They're not actually my properties" this time?

The OP possibly has a very logical brain and wants a logical explanation for everything not seeming to understand the world does not work like that.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113233#Comment_118113233

That is good information and does give more insight. I have an issue with the "rounding" of all things upwards in the favor of the tradesman. The job is not 4 man days and they are rounding up on top of that. It is not dissimilar to when prices rounded up from sterling in shops was way more than the currency rate or how petrol goes up way more than the prices of oil going up. People complain about that stuff.

I know tradesmen and I know how they operate but people are making it out like they are being fair and reasonable are way off. He is overcharging for materials and padding out labour. It just slows things down for me and I am sure it is affecting others like me trying to set up a business which means costs get passed on

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113335#Comment_118113335

1. look up a dictionary
2. look up a dictionary
3. Just answer the question directly as put you as I can't take your words literally according to you
4. No
5. How do you know I am gouging? I'll answer for you seeing as actually answering a question is difficult, you don't.

The reason I repeatedly tried to get you to answer the same question was to see if you had a hypocritical view. The fact you made a point about gouging and landlords proves you do to me. Simply you think it is great for the tradesmen but don't like it if the same was applied elsewhere. If I have that wrong you can correct me because I literally don't know if you understand words.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113338#Comment_118113338

Yes logical but I think I know how the world works. I fail to see how asking what a fair days pay is conflicts with either logic or the real world. Did you state what was fair? Logically I think tradesmen are ripping people off and the real world seems to understand that while some care others don't care. Am I missing something?

Spook_ie

Well what you're missing, is what price would you put on yourself giving up your job and setting up as a contractor of any kind? If you'd do it for less then yes you could feel they are overcharging but if you wouldn't then no they're not.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113569#Comment_118113569

I am a contractor (IT) and that is not in anyway a a response to how much should they get paid a day? They are overcharging that is not in question as it will not take 4 man days to do the work and there is no way they would spend the time on site. If I could charge two different company a full days pay while only doing one days work I might be tempted but that is part of what they are doing here

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113636#Comment_118113636

Well not really, you have to factor in any likely problems that might delay completion and cost for how you would get around around them, but as many have said if you feel they are over charging then DIY and stop complaining

cj maxx

Firstly, I doubt they're a 'contractor ' if they're hiring basic tools like a con saw.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113849#Comment_118113849

Well because I am a contractor I know all the tax details that need to be filled out and about sizing jobs and contingency planning as I project manage. So I may have more knowledge any experience than you are giving credit for in the area of running a business while I am also setting up another business. You were suggesting I didn't understand basic business so can I ask what is your business acumen? I am not really complaining other than wanting to gauge how others felt. Some people made weak arguments in defense which I disagree with. There is no doubt they are over charging on the amount of labour.

I am sure you are happy with rent, insurance,house prices, etc... and have no view on how much it should be.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113939#Comment_118113939

Never said they were. I just explained how much it would cost to rent to illustrate how much they were charging above what could be possible costs.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112039#Comment_118112039

That is probably for the saw itself and not the blade. The blades are mad expensive.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113956#Comment_118113956

they really aren't you can spend a lot for long use blades but for a job like this one €45 blade would easily last and probably last several other jobs. THe place I looked at provided the blades with the saw