Gender neutral tees

spuddy4711

UK club(s?) introducing this, will it catch on here ? Idea is to allow players choose which tee position to use, depending on their ability, with those generally needing over 100 shots being encouraged to use the forward tees. WHS system would need some tweaking though.

Mushy

Would be the best idea, the idea of a ladies tee should be gone.

Would the whs need changing? Isn't there a slope per tee?

srfc d16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110821#Comment_118110821

Not sure about other clubs but my own club do not have a mens slope on red tees

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058216201/gender-neutral-tees

WHS doesn't need tweaking for this. All it requires is that all tees be rated for both men and women. In practice this would not be necessary unless the course has a limited number of tee options, generally it would probably require that only one of the current 'men's' tees be rated for women.

In the case of our course, we have four sets of tees. The two furthest back are over 6,400 and 7,000 yards long respectively, so they would be unlikely to be played off by women (LPGA tor LET tour events maybe). That leaves the forward tees at about 6,000 yards and the reds. Currently waiting to get those forward tees rated for women, so as to provide another option.

Ivefoundgod

Would be great to see this come into the game but I suspect there are far too many male golfers who would point blank refuse to play off the reds. What I don't get is how its perfectly normal to go play a prestige course and be advised by the starter what tees should be used based on your handicap yet its unheard of in most courses for anything like that for visitors, societies or even members. Many senior players would likely be delighted with the extra yardage afforded off the tee from the reds and it would also greatly help with pace of play. I'm sure we've all played with players who struggle to get to the fairway on some holes which makes for a real struggle for them and their playing partners. This would help with that I think but where it would remain a problem is for comps. Would you allow say a 30+ handicapper play off forward tees while a tee handicapper plays off the tips? Or would you just categorise comps so that each category would play off the same tees?

Seve OB

golf is a funny old game. you can be good, or you can be crap, but there is this thing called a handicap that is supposed to level the field and lets just assume for a minute that the handicap system works perfect and it does indeed level the field. golf is a game where is really doesn't mater if you are a man or a woman. if you are crap, you just get a higher handicap

for donkeys years the ladies play off the red tees, and the men get a choice of the whites, blues, greens or whatever is available in your club. but if the men played from the ridiculously difficult blacks or the much easier white, they still played off the same handicap. but now we have this thing called WHS which adjusts your handicap depending on which tees you play. so now there is no reason why the ladies cant play from the back tees, or the men can't play from the reds. i don't get why a course would need to be rated separately for men and women though.

as far as im concerned, it shouldn't matter if you are a lady or a gent. the handicaps are there to level the field and there is no reason why we can't all compete together off the same tees. have a red comp and let some of the older guys play in that if they wish and let the good lady golfers play the white comp should they wish. (i wouldn't be a fan of having a single comp using different tees though)

and of course there can still be single sex comp.

and what about the LGBTVGXYZ who don't identify..... just let everyone play off the same tees and be done with it.

Mushy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112280#Comment_118112280

Didn't even realise there was different slope ratings for men and women. Seve there covered what I'd think of it

spacecoyote

Yeah, just noticed there in Golf Ireland, only red tees have ladies ratings, and gents for other 3 tees.

Would definitely need a re-rating for mens, as its at a par 74 for the ladies, and the slope is actually higher than the mens medal tees. Would make for some interesting scoring

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115389#Comment_118115389

There'd be very little point in rating red tees for men. As you say, they are often different pars and it could cause major confusion. But definitely a case for rating another set of tees for women. Assuming it doesn't end up with different pars as well. There are criteria for assessing this, so probably worth looking into on that basis to see if it's actually feasible.

willabur

high handicappers are already running amok with club competitions, if this was not done correctly then it would make comps a complete shambles altogether.

outside of that it makes complete sense - especially for beginners and for whatever reason age/ability short hitters

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116366#Comment_118116366

but why differentiate at all between men and women?

rate all the tees once for everyone. Handicaps take care of everything after that.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118798#Comment_118118798

It doesn't seem to work that way Seve.

In my place the blue tees have a slope of 129 for men. From the reds, there is a slope of 132 for ladies.

Thats a par 72, 6700 yard course versus a par 74 5700 yard course

Based on that you would need to have different slopes for the same tees for men and women.

Even off the yellows, which is he closest to the red tees, the slope is listed at 120 and its about 6200 yards.

I don't see how a universal rating can be derived? They would have to reslope the reds to be much lower or all the other 3 tee boxes to be much higher?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118918#Comment_118118918

Yeah. Different slope and course ratings, but also likely different pars. In theory it's possible, but in practice it would mean the scorecard would probably need to add a few more columns. So you do what's practicable and likely to be of use even if there are more options available.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118798#Comment_118118798

Skiing has colour ratings for difficulty and cycling will often include many different distances into a single sportive so I don't see the problem with golf choosing a difficulty level.

Except for a section of golf fans who can't even get over the idea of people wearing sports gear to play a sport and only see golf as a respectable version of a gentleman's club

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118798#Comment_118118798

Because they are different. Slope ratings and even pars are calculated using different tables for men and women. Here's the par tables from the current rules of handicapping and below that an extract from the course and slope rating adjustment tables from the same set of rules.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119387#Comment_118119387

People could just have 2 handicaps. Letting men tee off the red would encourage more people to get involved with golf but I get the feeling that is the problem for some golf fans.

Can't have the riff raff invading the place

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119479#Comment_118119479

People can't have two handicaps. The system (and it's a highly complex one) just can't allow for it. In any event, the system does allow for any tees to be played by anyone with a handicap adjusted for the course and slope rating of those tees. If a club wanted their red tees rated for men, they could ask the rating section of Golf Ireland to do it for them. But at the moment, they are incredibly busy; I'm waiting almost a year for an extra set of tees to be rated for women.

Nothing to do with riff raff or whatever chip you have on your shoulder currently, we're just into a new system and the process of rating tees was done on a current use basis to get the system up and running quickly. If there's a demand for further ratings to be done, it can be. But as the tables I posted above show, it may not be just ratings, pars might change as well.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119510#Comment_118119510

Why can't people have 2 handicaps. One based off the harder and one off the easier. Yes it might take time to implement but you could have a handicap from a full course and one from the shorter course.

Also as you say yourself further ratings can be done but you add the caveat of "if there's a demand" but if demand is discouraged or people don't know that there is a need or way to enact this demand then it will never happen. You are essentially saying people need to vote for something but not telling them how to vote

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120080#Comment_118120080

Maybe if you understood how the WHS works, you wouldn't be asking the same question over and over despite actually getting the answer every time. Tees are rated. Each rating is taken into account when calculating your handicap for those tees. So you can play off 12 on one set of tees, 13 off a longer set and 10 off a shorter one. In essence you can have multiple handicaps, not just two. You just have one handicap index that can change when you put in a score.

I didn't say demand is discouraged, this is a straw man argument. I didn't even say it wasn't possible. What I said was that it could prove more difficult than just rating the tees. There's also the issue of changing pars. This would impose a lot of cost on golf clubs to redesign scorecards, tee markers, signage and other infrastructure when this happens.

You have yet to even give a good reason for rating red tees for men. What's the point when most courses usually have three sets of tees for men? The bigger issue is the limited number of tees for women, usually just one set.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120915#Comment_118120915

Well if there are multiple men's tees then it's even easier. Just have 4 tees and let people pick any one instead of men picking from 3 and women 1

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121616#Comment_118121616

You haven't answered my question. Why rate red tees for men when they already have three sets of tees on average?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121624#Comment_118121624

Why not ?

If the tees are gender neutral then the men don't have 3 everyone has 4. What is the harm of men playing off red or women playing off the men's tees. Who does it hurt

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119387#Comment_118119387

You are missing the point.

I know they are different. But there is no reason why they should be different as it is a handicapped sport.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121643#Comment_118121643

If you want to change something that's going to cost clubs money and time, there should be a better reason than "because you can".

And everyone doesn't have four. As I pointed out above, the two back sets of tees on our course would be impossible for women to play from at the same par as men. The back tees would convert at least seven par 4s to par 5s and one of the par 5s to a par 6. It would change the par of the course for women from par 72 to at least par 80. I haven't even looked at the par 3s, but I suspect at least one would change to a par 4. And it's not actually playable as a par 4 since there's no landing area within driving distance for women. More expense.

And that's leaving out the fact that the length of the back tees is longer (by a substantial margin) than courses played on the professional tours.

Edit: Conversely rating the reds for men would change all the par 5s to par 4s and two of the par 4s to par 3s. Par 72 becomes par 66.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121706#Comment_118121706

And my point was that it's not just the handicaps and ratings. As I said above, pars would change as well. To the point that it would become ludicrous.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121716#Comment_118121716

Well if the women want to try play the "impossible" tees they should be allowed. Is a man who is useless at golf allowed play them ?

And it's not "because you can" it's "because you should" and it doesn't have to happen right away of course it will take time but it's not the massive obstacle you make out.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121781#Comment_118121781

They can play them any time they want. There's nothing stopping them standing up on the back tees and playing a round of golf.

And "because you should" is just another version of "because you can" when you don't give a single cogent reason as to why clubs should have to engage in a very expensive exercise.

I haven't even touched on the difficulty of indexing a par 80+ golf course.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121781#Comment_118121781

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121735#Comment_118121735

You are still missing the point.

par 5 should be a par 5 for everyone not a par 5 for men and a par 6 for ladies.

the handicap takes care of the difference.

Eg. there are plenty of par 4’s in golf that countless men have no chance of getting on in 2 and on the flip side, heaps of par 5’s that loads of lads would be getting on in 2. so what happens here? Well the shorter hitters generally get more shots and the longer lads have fewer shots.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121735#Comment_118121735

Sorry, fecking new boards can’t fix the quotes

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123356#Comment_118123356

I feel you on the quotes system. It's a retrograde step.

I understand what you''re saying, but you have to allow for the fact that women on average do not hit the ball as far as men on average. That's a fact all the way up to and including tour pros. And it's part of the rules of golf and handicapping that this is not only accepted but also quantifiable. And has been for many years.

Now if you're saying that the handicapping system should take care of this, well it can. But you'd have to expand the handicap ranges for women to take account of that change. And also accept that par for women will in actual fact be bogey or worse.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123496#Comment_118123496

What currently happens for a man who plays the harder tee but is useless and always hits bogey or worse ?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123517#Comment_118123517

He throws his clubs in the river.

What's your point here? This has already been covered. The handicapping system is designed to rate tees by gender and ability. All the criteria are set out in the rules of handicapping. Including the criteria for designating the par for each hole. Which I've explained to you already above.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123589#Comment_118123589

You haven't sufficiently explained why we can't do away with the gender bit and just treat women the same way as less abled male players. Let the women play the long holes same as the men and shure if they are crap at them they can go back to the shorter tee or "throw their clubs in the river" just like the men

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123612#Comment_118123612

I don't know who you're trying to persuade here, but I suggest you toddle up to any woman golfer you know and explain to her that in future she's going to have to play to pars set by men for men and if she can't do it her handicap will go up until she can. But until then she can slog it around the golf course in 120+ strokes and like it dammit.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123806#Comment_118123806

You are talking BS now and trying to twist things. No one is taking away the course they have now just saying men can play on it and they will have equal access to all tees.

Don't pretend your stance is for the good of women golfers

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123920#Comment_118123920

I'm not 'pretending' anything. I just responded to your post in the spirit it was made. Flippantly. 🤣

Par72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123806#Comment_118123806

I am a woman golfer and I'm with breezy1985 on this. I don't think there should be separate slope ratings for men and women. I'm a scratch handicap index currently but if I was able to enter a competition playing off the other 3 "men's tees" and my playing handicap was adjusted accordingly to 5, 6, 7 or whatever I would be all for it.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124184#Comment_118124184

That's fine. You can play of any tees you like. Just ask. I've already said this on the thread.

Edit: You don't even have to ask. Just rock up and let fly.

But according to the rules of golf, the ones we currently play under, that's not acceptable for competition and handicap. Until it is, we're stuck with what we've got.

As a matter of interest, have you ever done this and played off back tees with the men's slope rating applied?

spacecoyote

Would incorporating the course rating into the handicap calc (done worldwide but not here) help. You wouldnt have to change the pars of the course then as it would incorporate into the calc.

So if the course is a par 72 for men with a course rating of 72.9, it might then have a course rating of say, 79.9 for the ladies.

Conversely a par 74 with course rating of 74.3 for ladies from the reds, could then have a course rating of 69.9 for men (just picking arbitrary numbers here for illustration)

You wouldn't need to change par then, but would need slope and ratings for each set of tees for both genders

Par72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124202#Comment_118124202

I have played off the back tees but not in a competition or a scoring situation. Of course, I have the option to play off the men's tees whenever I want but not in a club competition which is 90% of the rounds I play.

callaway92

There shouldn’t be an argument against this. The archaic thoughts of men’s/women’s tees needs to go and they should only be known by colour

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124314#Comment_118124314

That's not what we're talking about here though. The rating system is separated into men's and women's ratings. So you could theoretically have four sets of tees rated for both men and women. But they are different. How different is hard to say as I haven't yet come across a set of tees rated for both (though some may well exist). I am waiting for a set of our tees to be rated for women, so I'll let everyone know once it's done.

But even more fundamentally to golf than ratings is the fact that pars are also calculated differently. I say fundamentally because this is something that's been around a very long time. I posted the chart from the current rules of handicapping that gives the recommended distances for pars for men and women on the previous page.

So some people are saying that the ratings and pars should be the same and handicaps adjusted to make up for that. I'm really not sure about that. Just on the basis of par calculations, our back tees would be par 80 or more if the recommended guidance were to be followed.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124261#Comment_118124261

I know that's the situation. What I was asking (probably not very clearly) was what would have been your score with the men's ratings applied to your current handicap index. In other words, would you have played to your playing handicap with those ratings?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124202#Comment_118124202

That's exactly what we are talking about. Of course you are stuck with rules till you change them so change them

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124384#Comment_118124384

I think I'll wait for the people who are actually affected to lobby for this change if that's what they want. They certainly don't need men telling them what they want.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124495#Comment_118124495

Ah there we go again pretending you are the champion of women golfers.

Tell me how many women need to ask and by what medium or what system can they apply for change

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124590#Comment_118124590

It's a WORLD handicap system. You think I'm arrogant enough to think I can influence that? Or are you?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124829#Comment_118124829

Who ever said me or you man you keep moving the goalposts. If you are going to reply to my comment actually reply and don't answer a question never asked . How many women need to complain and how do they go about it ?

Would it help if I used caps for certain words to help you understand ?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124885#Comment_118124885

As I said but you didn't seem to understand is it's a worldwide system. I'll spell that out for you. This would have to be brought up by a considerable portion of the world. So we're talking countries, not people. And if you want to start the ball rolling, I suggest emailing Golf Ireland and then expanding that to the rest of the world. .

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124995#Comment_118124995

Well if UK clubs are implementing it and we are talking about it then someone in the WORLD (as your arrogant fingers like to say) must have brought it up.

Your tone and language are very befitting of your name by the way.

Rikand

When I used to visit friends in Norway pre whs, there were four sets of tees and a recommendation of which set of tees a person should play off based on their handicap.

As a single figure handicap I used to play off the tees that were 2nd from the back however, my Norwegian friend who played off a high 20s handicap played off the most forward tees (the ladies basically) as he was quite a short hitter and always reaching the fairway with his tee shot was enjoyable to him.

There was no issue with any golfer picking whatever tees they wanted to play off and using that set of tees to count for their handicap. There was an 18 year old girl who played off scratch who usually played off the same tees that I played off.

Now I accept that this was Norway and they used the old style slope and course rating system but any golfer male or female could play any set of tees they wanted and have it count for their handicap. It should be the same here for general play rounds at least

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126465#Comment_118126465

What are UK clubs implementing? Have you a link?